Paid Members Big Benny HG Posted December 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 21, 2016 I'm not particularly a fan of the WhatCulture product, but just because it's a different business model to promotions that have been and gone before doesn't inherently make it bad one. Â I can't state to what extent WC are successful in these aspects, but this is all quite clearly aimed at building a strong online brand and presence - something that in turn can (quite successfully) be monetised (advertising, YouTube revenues, paid content subscriptions, magazines, merchandise, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members John Matrix Posted December 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 21, 2016 It's been well documented what they are paying. They brought over JR & Cornette, neither of whom come for cheap. Del Rio's price tag is well known, as is Cody's. All of them were flown over in business class too. They're paying a fortune for imported talent. The difference between WCPW and ITV is ITV will actually pay the British guys well, aren't focusing on imports and ITV will actually make money. WCPW quite clearly doesn't make money. You don't need to see their books to realise that. Listen, I'm not posting anything other UK promoters aren't saying, be it PCW, ICW, PROGRESS etc. As for attendance, I've attended tons of wrestling shows at the Liverpool Olympia. Believe me, they will not draw more than 500 fans. The north west market is reaching saturation point. As for why anyone would care what they're paying and what they're doing.... I'm a huge fan of the British wrestling scene. Not just one promotion. If you can't see how what WCPW are doing is devaluing and damaging the scene, I'm not sure what else to say. If you don't believe me, ask some of the U.K. promoters the next time you attend a show what they think about WCPW. They're a dirty word within the business currently. Stealing a show name from Southside is simply one very small example of the immense lack of creativity in WCPW and the blatant disregard and disrespect that they have for the UK business.     Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also been well documented that the promotion has various revenue streams available to it through YouTube ads, the 'Evening With' shows that were ran for Cornette/JR etc so there's a business model there you aren't giving credit for - they might be raking it in, making a loss or breaking even and lets face it, I'd hazard a guess the majority of British companies fall into the latter two categories, but you don't run iPPV's sell out shows, TV tapings etc with little more than a mug and some deep pockets at the helm.  "ITV will actually pay them well" is like saying Poundland are stingy bastards for not paying the same as Waitrose and smacks of clutching at straws. Of course ITV are in the position to pay well, but what makes you think WCPW aren't? I remember when these guys first burst on the scene, there was talk of "Cor, apparently they're paying workers to plug their shows on social media" So which is it? If I was a wrestler in this country and was offered X to appear, with bonuses for sharing content, and generating buys, I'd work my bollocks off to do so. Plus, these guys are getting an exposure working for WCPW that many other promotions simply can't replicate. I don't know the figures, but I'd imagine, YouTube being a global platform, that their reach and fanbase consists of far more than just Liverpudlians, or brits in fact, these guys are getting exposure internationally working for WCPW and that has to count for something as well as just pounds and pence if your an aspiring worker aiming to get noticed at the top level.  I've no choice but to take your word for what the likes of ICW, PROGRESS and PCW promoters have to say on the matter, I clearly don't have your connections in that area, but experience tells me to anything I'm told by competitors, disgruntled or otherwise, with a whacking great pinch of salt.  Re the stealing a show name, fuck me, I must have seen 30 promotions on my Twitter feed promoting a "Festive Fury" or "Seasons Beatings" this December, who's to say Kirby isn't behind that decision? They've even made him, a British wrestler, the figurehead of the company for however long it lasts. The same company paying fortunes to bring in all these imports, has positioned a through and through British guy as THE guy. As far as I know, all the WCPW titles are held by British wrestlers with the exception of the internet title, which given its very nature makes sense to be held by the current flavour of the month. I don't understand this bad for British wrestling bit? The fans are getting to see big US names and getting exposure to the hidden gems of the UK scene in the process.  I'm sorry mate, I'm genuinely not trying to have a pop, but your posts read like someone who's been personally disadvantaged by WCPW's existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra_gordo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016  How have you got any idea of what they are paying for imports? Are they overpaying? Or do they just have a bigger chequebook than their competitors and are able to bring more over? I mean you might be bang on, but I suspect you've can't prove what you've said any more than I can.  It's been well documented what they are paying. They brought over JR & Cornette, neither of whom come for cheap. Del Rio's price tag is well known, as is Cody's. All of them were flown over in business class too. They're paying a fortune for imported talent.   Where has it been documented? What's Del Rio's fee? What's Cody's? Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016    All of them were flown over in business class too. They're paying a fortune for imported talent  Isn't that just being like really nice to the guys in question? To be fair guys like Cornette and JR don't do every show they're asked to do, because they ask for stuff like this. In this case WCPW did that, and are probably in their good graces for it. Which in itself if probably worth the money, if you have big indy names/former WWE guys who talk to JR and he says "Try and get booked by WCPW, they are quality guys who look after their talent", I'd imagine they'd at least think positively about them and spread the word about as well.  As for the prices they pay, who cares. If they are paying it, and can afford to do so, good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Carr_92 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016   How have you got any idea of what they are paying for imports? Are they overpaying? Or do they just have a bigger chequebook than their competitors and are able to bring more over? I mean you might be bang on, but I suspect you've can't prove what you've said any more than I can.   It's been well documented what they are paying. They brought over JR & Cornette, neither of whom come for cheap. Del Rio's price tag is well known, as is Cody's. All of them were flown over in business class too. They're paying a fortune for imported talent.  Where has it been documented? What's Del Rio's fee? What's Cody's? Source? Del Rio is supposed to have a $10k fee and Cody is apparently less. I brought this up after the weekender with the True Legacy shows that they'd spent approx $75,000 on talent alone. Meltzer was saying something about it. I put a link then. That Manchester show must've cost in the 6 figures when you count all the other costs. Some venues will take a cut from merch sales. The imports might take a cut as well, if not. They may not have a return. They'll have terms they'll want. The business class flights may be one. Others might not mind. They could also want a cushy hotel for the night. There's a lot to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Would people prefer they just pocketed the cash from YouTube and didn't reinvest? They would easily have done that, but instead are investing in the business and paying guys and girls for shows. I don't watch it, but I don't hate on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicsGuy Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016  It's been well documented what they are paying. They brought over JR & Cornette, neither of whom come for cheap. Del Rio's price tag is well known, as is Cody's. All of them were flown over in business class too. They're paying a fortune for imported talent. The difference between WCPW and ITV is ITV will actually pay the British guys well, aren't focusing on imports and ITV will actually make money. WCPW quite clearly doesn't make money. You don't need to see their books to realise that. Listen, I'm not posting anything other UK promoters aren't saying, be it PCW, ICW, PROGRESS etc. As for attendance, I've attended tons of wrestling shows at the Liverpool Olympia. Believe me, they will not draw more than 500 fans. The north west market is reaching saturation point. As for why anyone would care what they're paying and what they're doing.... I'm a huge fan of the British wrestling scene. Not just one promotion. If you can't see how what WCPW are doing is devaluing and damaging the scene, I'm not sure what else to say. If you don't believe me, ask some of the U.K. promoters the next time you attend a show what they think about WCPW. They're a dirty word within the business currently. Stealing a show name from Southside is simply one very small example of the immense lack of creativity in WCPW and the blatant disregard and disrespect that they have for the UK business.     Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also been well documented that the promotion has various revenue streams available to it through YouTube ads, the 'Evening With' shows that were ran for Cornette/JR etc so there's a business model there you aren't giving credit for - they might be raking it in, making a loss or breaking even and lets face it, I'd hazard a guess the majority of British companies fall into the latter two categories, but you don't run iPPV's sell out shows, TV tapings etc with little more than a mug and some deep pockets at the helm.  "ITV will actually pay them well" is like saying Poundland are stingy bastards for not paying the same as Waitrose and smacks of clutching at straws. Of course ITV are in the position to pay well, but what makes you think WCPW aren't? I remember when these guys first burst on the scene, there was talk of "Cor, apparently they're paying workers to plug their shows on social media" So which is it? If I was a wrestler in this country and was offered X to appear, with bonuses for sharing content, and generating buys, I'd work my bollocks off to do so. Plus, these guys are getting an exposure working for WCPW that many other promotions simply can't replicate. I don't know the figures, but I'd imagine, YouTube being a global platform, that their reach and fanbase consists of far more than just Liverpudlians, or brits in fact, these guys are getting exposure internationally working for WCPW and that has to count for something as well as just pounds and pence if your an aspiring worker aiming to get noticed at the top level.  I've no choice but to take your word for what the likes of ICW, PROGRESS and PCW promoters have to say on the matter, I clearly don't have your connections in that area, but experience tells me to anything I'm told by competitors, disgruntled or otherwise, with a whacking great pinch of salt.  Re the stealing a show name, fuck me, I must have seen 30 promotions on my Twitter feed promoting a "Festive Fury" or "Seasons Beatings" this December, who's to say Kirby isn't behind that decision? They've even made him, a British wrestler, the figurehead of the company for however long it lasts. The same company paying fortunes to bring in all these imports, has positioned a through and through British guy as THE guy. As far as I know, all the WCPW titles are held by British wrestlers with the exception of the internet title, which given its very nature makes sense to be held by the current flavour of the month. I don't understand this bad for British wrestling bit? The fans are getting to see big US names and getting exposure to the hidden gems of the UK scene in the process.  I'm sorry mate, I'm genuinely not trying to have a pop, but your posts read like someone who's been personally disadvantaged by WCPW's existence.   If I was a very rich person and I didn't have to worry about turning a profit, I could do what they do. It's not hard. I don't have any respect for a group that's not even trying to turn a profit and just wants to put on fantasy cards every month. I don't consider that a proper promotion. They drew 300 fans to a tv taping a few months ago, with fans paying £5 admission, and they were paying Del Rio $10k to appear. Now I'm no accountant, but that's a significant loss being made, clearly saved by the owners deep pockets. It just strikes me as opportunistic to the extreme to set up this promotion, driving down the value of wrestling and what people are prepared to pay for it, thus making it much harder for normal promoters who don't have deep pockets, who aren't able to charge low ticket prices, to draw. If this goes on long enough it will eventually affect the booming U.K. wrestling business. The same thing applies to a tv show on Youtube - none of the other promotions produce one or give their product away for free - why? Because they're all trying to make money and don't have a rich backer to absorb losses. Yeah, it's great for the fans in the short term, but the bigger picture in the long term is probably less UK promotions with the ones unable to compete cutting back or fading away. I'm not going to name names but I talk to some of the wrestlers involved. They know it's a gravy train that can end at any time. We've been here before with 1PW. If people are fans of them, good luck to them. The creative (a misnomer if ever there was one) isn't for me. A parody Bullet Club calling themselves the Pacitti Club? Really? And you have one of the best wrestlers in the world in Ospreay in that faction? It's a bunch of non-wrestling geeks trying to make themselves the star of the show. Them tweeting about the WWE UK tournament the other day, about how the guys featured could wrestle for other UK promotions was a laugh, given only about 4 of the 16 had ever worked for WCPW and only one of them in Connors was ever really pushed. There's people in the WWE tournament that (at least before WWE picked them), that WCPW would never have booked in a million years. Suffice to say, not a fan at all, and my initial post regarding 'Kirbymania' was valid given Southside only held the show two months ago. It was held to mark Kirby's 100th match. It's a pretty specific show title and can't be compared to 'Festive Fury' and the like. Just irked me, that's all.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon-Carr_92 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Not to mention the fact Ospreay is a member of Chaos. A rival faction. You have to wonder how New Japan reacted to that. Not that they'd be bothered, but still. Bullet Club parody shirts have been done to death for that matter, And to add one more thing. I'm not bothered with the individual members doing theirs for their ProWrestlingTees stores. It's just everyone else doing it. And Pacitti Club goes back to their PPV predictions videos to compliment Blampied's BX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Perhaps they see the live shows as a loss leader? Just because that particular part of the business runs at a loss, it gets eyes on other aspects of their business, which turn in huge profits. Terrible analogy coming up but isn't it akin to saying Microsoft are shit because they lose money on their Xbox hardware. It's just one aspect of their whole business, and it's the whole business that gets judged. Â What Culture is the product here, not a wrestling show bankrolled by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members chokeout Posted December 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 21, 2016 There's a lot wrong with what's being said about WCPW. As mentioned a bunch of times in this thread they don't actually need to draw crowds to make money from their shows, they're in a rare position where they have advertising revenue and sponsorship. They also have a company that had a large amount of money behind it, something 90% of UK companies don't have. The free stream thing argument is just stupid. Companies like PCW did a free iPPV and were quite open that it was to get more publicity and fans and it's a great way to expose people to your product. There were a few promotions who were willing to give their matches away for free to Wrestltalk / the roundup show for the same reason. It really comes across as you don't like them and are trying to find reasons to back it up ( and there are plenty of reasons not to, shitty internet talent from their website, over reliance on imports, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Linus Posted December 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 21, 2016 I think there are some legitimate concerns about how their business model affects the wider scene but largely you just have to accept that, as a fan, it's just not your graps and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchell Jones Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 XXXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Benno Posted December 22, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 22, 2016 Anyone trying to rationalise the WCPW buisiness plan with mythical "YouTube Ad Revenue" needs to look at what those numbers actually are. We discussed it pages back. Based on what they've earned in total by now, they'd barely cover a couple of their imports for one show, nevermind the multiple people they've booked for so many shows. Â It's fine if you're not bothered by such things but don't chat bollocks about how they're "making money elsewhere". Nothing backs that up. It's a money mark promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted December 22, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted December 22, 2016 If the best thing that comes out of it is something like that 1PW book that came out, let them fail ten times over. Even in the worst situations, you get a few laughs out of it. Alex Shane and his merry men are nothing but comedic value once the dust settles. Â I heard from a man on the inside, they have Jim Cornette on a monthly retainer to help them with ideas. And by ideas, I imagine that means Alex Shane talks to him on Skype for an hour and then has a mark wank afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickpadsking Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Â If you don't believe me, ask some of the U.K. promoters the next time you attend a show what they think about WCPW. They're a dirty word within the business currently. Â Â Thats not exactly the wisest advice. UK Promotors are generally insecure, paranoid, shit stirring bastards who are scared of even there own shadow if they think it looks bigger. Â Going back to the good old tale of the amazing cancelled ring scandal, to recent years with the most absurd rumours flying round as promoters try and sabotage each other, to even the rumblings of one taking advantage of a guy getting cancer to advance his patch. Â WCPW are doing well. If the promoters are the ones telling you that they're shite for business, that must mean they're doing far better than it seems. Â Well done to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.