EU Referendum - In or Out and Why

[Michael_3165]

Couldn't see a thread with poll but wanted to find out a snapshot of the EU question on this forum... so...

 

Are you voting in, out, neither or not sure? and Why?

 

I am undecided... In many ways I would like to see us come out. As an employer I am loath to vote to stay given how the EU tends to meddle in how I deal with employees. Maternity,holiday pay etc... the banes of my life!

 

That said it is clear that the economic argument is heavily weighted against the leave campaign though most of this is based on guesswork. The International Monetary and Institute for Fiscal Studies both say it would be a catastrophe but they also warned us that not joining the euro would lead to chaos and they didn't spot the giant economic storm looming in 2007-8 so who knows. Most 'big' business want to stay in because being in the EU helps them more than leaving it - small business on the other hand not so much.

 

I don't believe leave campaigners are racist/xenophobic at all but I do think that this is another issue that will prevent people voting out. The fact is that we need to look at those in power and with money rather than blaming immigrants. 

 

What we also need to realise is that someone has to pay for the NHS, schools, policing etc. We can moan about immigration all we like but the fact remains that if you want services someone has to pay for them. This is one thing none of the campaigns wants to admit because it may be political suicide. 

 

I don't believe Boris wants us to leave but is doing this for his own political gains and to further his own career. Nigel Farage is the most honest about what he thinks about the leave/stay debate even if you don't like him. Cameron has dug himself a hole that he will struggle to get out of. If we do vote out it will be interesting to hear what Osbourne et al will have to say because they want say we are all doomed going forward. 

 

So which way and why? 

 

 

[The King Of Swing]

Unsure. Have leaned towards exit though.

 

Honestly both sides of the debate have pissed me off and neither side is being honest imo.

 

I've actually considered sitting the vote out. Probably still be undecided on the day.

[SpursRiot2012]

There was a poll I posted some time back that was heavily in favour of remaining. That was a while ago though.

 

I've been Remain from the start and nothing I've seen or heard since has changed my mind on that. I'll actually be fucking livid if we end up coming out. Probably how all the Scots Yes voters felt the day after they lost their referendum.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I'm passionately 'in'.

 

In 10/15 years, when American hegemony has been caught up by the BRICS economies, we'll seriously regret not being part of, and negotiating from within, the biggest trading bloc in the world.

 

It's all bulllshit, anyway. Leave are selling people a lie.

 

The idea that any nation, in or out of the EU, can have absolute sovereignty is a nonsense. It's true that we pool certain aspects of our sovereignty within the EU, but in return we get to negotiate from a position of strength.

 

If we 'take our country back' we'd end up in a position of weakness, and be forced to negotiate ever larger chunks of our sovereignty away. The leavers make out that trade agreements are matters of pounds and pence, but actually, sovereignty is part of your currency now. Every trade deal has clauses such as freedom of movement, non-proliferation etc etc. Sovereignty as currency is an international norm now, designed to create stakeholders out of nation states, to make them invested in the idea of shared prosperity.

 

Leave ignores that and uses 1950's arguments to return the country to the 1930's.

 

In essence, We'd be choosing when to bend over (as opposed to doing any bending of others) but without a choice about the size of the shaft.

 

The world is too inter connected, and shifting towards far bigger nation states with equal power. Leaving would be a disaster.

 

Not to mention the fact that if we did choose to leave, the EU would simply have to aggressively make sure it was a disaster for us. If we got out and it was deemed a success, or that we broke even, it could lead to a domino effect that nobbles the whole project. We'll be persona non grata around the EU table. They'll fuck us six ways from Sunday.

[Pier Six Brawler]

 I think there's a lot of people who are reluctantly for remain but who won't bother voting in the end, whereas just about everyone that wants to leave is a lot more passionate about it and will get down to the polling station. It'll be a lot closer than a lot of pundits seem to think. I'm for leave, can't see how being in the EU benefits the average person in this country at all. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think there's a lot of people who are reluctantly for remain but who won't bother voting in the end, whereas just about everyone that wants to leave is a lot more passionate about it and will get down to the polling station. It'll be a lot closer than a lot of pundits seem to think. I'm for leave, can't see how being in the EU benefits the average person in this country at all.

Do you think it would be better for the average person if we cut ourselves free from the more social democratic-leaning governments of Europe, and are left solely under the guidance of the Tories?

 

Workers rights, in particular, are enshrined in European law.

 

On the flip side, senior Tories in the current government have spoken seriously about disbanding the minimum wage and ending paid sickness, maternity, paternity and holiday.

[unfitfinlay]

In.

 

Both campaigns have been atrocious, granted, but the arguments for leaving just don't seem particularly valid. We won't "reclaim our sovereignty" because (a) that would suggest that the U.K isn't a sovereign country at the moment, which is bollocks and (b) Boris Johnson could well be our next Prime Minister, and he backs TTIP, which is an actual attack on our sovereignty. In fact one of his arguments for leaving is that it'll easier to push through a similar "trade agreement" without 27 other countries going "Give up the right to raise minimum wage? Fuck that shit".

 

Freedom of movement would also be a big loss, at least to me. Sure, technically the entire population of Turkey could move to the U.K if they wanted to (which is an actual argument I've seen on social media. Seriously. Like 70 Million Turks are all going to abandon their homes and move to Slough...) but I'm willing to take that risk to know that some of my friends and co-workers will be able to remain here, and that I'll be able to move to another EU country if I so choose.

 

Lastly, and probably most important, Human Rights. The current Government have an atrocious human rights record - and that's WITH the EU's protection. The idea of the likes of Iain Duncan Smith being in charge of drawing up a "British Bill of Human Rights" is absolutely fucking terrifying. Workfare was bad enough (and twice ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights) but it'll be the tip of the iceberg if those fuckers get their way.

[SpursRiot2012]

Europe is my fucking escape plan man, if I need one. Ending of free movement would piss me off.

[Pier Six Brawler]

 

I'm for leave, can't see how being in the EU benefits the average person in this country at all.

Do you work? Minimum 20 days leave for a full-time employee are an EU directive.

 

If the Tories try and do away with this, they can be voted out. We can't vote out the EU commision. Britain led the way when it comes to workers rights. Why is it we now need outside help? 

[d-d-d-dAz]

They can be voted out after the fact, sure.

 

But with a decent majority and a clear policy program and a determined effort to push it through, they could do away with decades of hard earned workers rights before they ever saw the ballot box. Fixed term parliaments, also make it far easier to prop up an unpopular, but powerful, government.

 

Either way, the EU shouldn't be sold solely on its ability to hold governments to account and maintain humane working environments. They also make it far easier to deal with transnational problems, the likes of which are the real threats facing humanity over the years to come.

 

Immigration is Leave's strongest hand, but even that's built on falsehoods. Migration from outside the EU is still higher than from within, and EU migrants are net contributors to the UK economy. As for the pressure on housing or the NHS, the real pressure comes from this government refusing to build enough homes, and to continue the salami slicing of the NHS budget.

 

Even when it comes to the downward pressure of wages, of which the evidence is more anecdotal than anything else, the government has very real levers it could use to discourage large companies from importing labour as a matter of policy or ensuring migrant workers are being treated as if they were a British national. They don't.

[Fog Dude]

If the Tories try and do away with this, they can be voted out. We can't vote out the EU commision. 

 

They can be only voted out using a hideously unfair and outdated voting system. True, we can't vote out the Commission, but that's like the Cabinet at EU level, whose Westminster equivalent isn't directly elected either. How did you vote in the last House of Lords election, by the way?

 

Workfare was bad enough (and twice ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights) but it'll be the tip of the iceberg if those fuckers get their way.

The Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg is not an EU institution. That would be the Court of Justice in Luxembourg. The former is part of the Council of Europe, which in turn is not the same as the European Council (≈ Council of Ministers). This is all bloody confusing enough without all the other rubbish that's been spouted by both sides of the debate.

[Michael_3165]

 

I think there's a lot of people who are reluctantly for remain but who won't bother voting in the end, whereas just about everyone that wants to leave is a lot more passionate about it and will get down to the polling station. It'll be a lot closer than a lot of pundits seem to think. I'm for leave, can't see how being in the EU benefits the average person in this country at all.

Do you think it would be better for the average person if we cut ourselves free from the more social democratic-leaning governments of Europe, and are left solely under the guidance of the Tories?

 

Workers rights, in particular, are enshrined in European law.

 

On the flip side, senior Tories in the current government have spoken seriously about disbanding the minimum wage and ending paid sickness, maternity, paternity and holiday.

 

 

More the reason to vote out then  

 

Joking I work in the public sector but the employee's rights really does kill employers who can't do or say anything without getting in a spot of bother. 

[Michael_3165]

What about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership? It will give US companies free reign to take over large enterprises without the regulation that the EU currently imposes. Bye bye NHS... 

[MungoChutney]

In. About 30% of the money generated by the project I work for comes from the EU. Without it, I'd probably be out of a job in 12 months.

[d-d-d-dAz]

Besides the fact that the NHS isn't actually covered by TTIP (provisions were made early on to protect public health services) the deal is currently held back by those pesky Europeans who want to keep their jobs and don't want American companies to be able to sue states in secret courts.

 

The U.K, on the other hand, has been the deals biggest cheerleader.