UFC 178: Johnson vs Cariaso

[d-d-d-dAz]

Big Nog. That's all I want in a martial artist.

[lambyUK]

 

I simply don't buy this respect crap in combat sports. It's not natural at all.

 

Yeah, there's no history of it whatsoever in sports & martial arts

 

 

And simply ignore the rest of the post I see? Also, using rolling eye symbols? Come on Mike.

 

I'm addressing Daz here too, I'm not debating that Martial Arts hasn't been built on respect and I'm not saying there's no history. However, this is modern day MMA and MMA is still a new sport. The same with Boxing, I find it far more organic that a person would dislike someone that is aiming to cause them physical harm. Getting punched and kicked hurts like hell and all I'm saying is that if a fighter's mindset is to see their opponents as an enemy, I can relate to that a hell of a lot more than a fighter who doesn't. 

[Noah Southworth]

I'd accept that if it were absolutely the case. The success of GSP, Anderson, Couture, Aldo, Valesquez et al however suggests otherwise.

Whilst those names have had great success in the cage, their business success, that is the numbers they've drawn, which affects the money they make because the bigger the show the bigger the payday, is very disparate and it comes down to personality and/or charisma and not all of those names you've mentioned have the personality or charisma to have the kind of business success that matches their cage success or their talent.

 

It sucks for people who hate the over-the-top aspect of MMA and the pseudo drama that everyone kind of knows isn't totally real but can believe there is a degree of reality to, and you see this a lot on MMA-centric websites with a lot of angry people who don't understand and appear to not want to understand, but the big money, and subsequently the big paydays, is not driven by the quality of the fighter or even the quality of the fight. It's driven by the quality of the hype. And you're not going to get that quality hype with someone like a Jose Aldo, who, as talented as he is, doesn't mean a whole lot at the box office. You don't even get it with Velasquez, whose big trilogy fight with JDS, over the 'biggest' title in the company, did a hugely disappointing number

 

MMA, like any business that centres around selling confrontation, whether it's real or fake, is driven by personalties who connect with the fans. And McGregor connects with the fans.

[Dead Mike]

I'm a fan, not a Zuffa shareholder. The draw of fighters at the box office or how many t-shirts they sell is of absolutey no consequence.

[Dead Mike]

Anyway, back to actual fight discussion........

Who's gonna be putting some cash down this weekend?

 

I’m thinking of sticking a tenner on a Cruz, Zingano, McGregor & Johnson. Kennedy/Romero & Cerrone/Alvarez are too close to call. If the odds are right I might include Cerrone in there, he's on a tear (and one of my faves).

[Carbomb]

I'm a fan, not a Zuffa shareholder. The draw of fighters at the box office or how many t-shirts they sell is of absolutey no consequence.

Ultimately speaking, I agree with you. I like a bit of story sometimes, but after a while, I find that when the pro-wrestling ethos starts becoming seen as the requisite norm, it becomes rather tiresome, and I'm saying this fully in mind of the fact that I'm more a wrestling fan than an MMA fan.

 

I'm just saying that I think that your reasons for disliking McGregor feel more like reasons for disliking a system that effectively encourages, even requires, fighters to take this sort of approach.

[Noah Southworth]

The draw of fighters at the box office is a bit of consequence to the fighters themselves considering it affects the size of their paycheque and even whether they get one at all.

[wandshogun09]

This'll probably ramble on a lot longer than I untended. Read it if you want, if not I won't be offended.

 

Carbomb - I don't think the UFC have adopted a business model that caters to shit talkers or personalities. It's the way combat sports have always been and will always be. Like them or hate them fighters like McGregor, Rousey, Lesnar, Mayweather, Tyson etc generate interest, internet traffic and so on. If the demand wasn't there for these types then they'd just blend in with everyone else. The fact is, even people who hate them are interested in their fights, even if it's just wanting them to fail. A McGregor or Rousey or Nick Diaz doesn't get media attention for the sake of preferential treatment. It's because the MMA media look at what gets the most traffic and run with it. People are interested in interesting personalities. Like you say with the magpie thing.

 

I think sometimes people lump combat sports in with other mainstream sports and expect them to run and be promoted the same way. But boxing and MMA are just a completely different animal to sports like football, rugby, cricket and so on. For one, take any sport where it's one-on-one and personalities come into it. To varying degrees but it's there. Snooker you've got Ronnie O'Sullivan, tons of talent of course, but he's also been known to mentally unravel and show odd behaviour during games from time to time. Then saying he's going to retire, then changing his mind, then going on another run of form, then a rough patch. Fuck, darts is full of gimmicks as well. They've got entrance music and walkout gear and all sorts. So take that and add violence to it like in boxing/MMA and the personalities become amplified ten-fold. It's much easier to get invested in a personality, good or bad, when there's going to be a fight at the end of it. It's natural.

 

I love what goes on in the ring/cage as much as anyone, without me finding that so satisfying to watch I wouldn't bother. But it's undeniable that combat sports have, and always will, be driven by personalities and characters that make people tune in. It just enhances my enjoyment as a viewer.

 

As for the points from Dead Mike on McGregor, people will like and dislike whoever they want. Fair enough. I don't give a fuck. I think he's great entertainment personally, in and out of the cage.

 

I genuinely don't think he's manufacturing stuff though. Sure, he realises it will help but everything I've seen or read about him suggests he's always been this brash outspoken personality, just now he's in a position where it's being filmed all the time. He was the same guy in Cage Warriors on a much smaller platform.

 

Creating fake rivalries, I don't even think he's really done that either. Pretty much everyone he's talked shit about talked shit about him first. From Diego Sanchez to Cole Miller to Diego Brandao. Even Luke Barnatt had a pop and he's three weight divisions higher. The only time I remember McGregor having unprovoked digs at fighters was that short video where he was given names of guys in his division and said stuff like 'Poirier - Pea Head. Lentz - Boring. Swanson - Old'. It was all tongue in cheek shit and to be fair he was actually asked to give his opinion.

 

I'd rather someone like him than 10 Nik Lentz's. Even if I hated McGregor, I'd feel the same because then I'd be just as into his fights but rooting against him. Like I was with Frank Mir all those years. Lentz is an excellent fighter, I like watching him and I don't even mean it as a knock. I think most people enjoy his fights (Andre Winner snoozefest aside), but win or lose, who really gives a shit? Flip that around and take Bisping for example. He's been in the UFC eight years and has lost every single time he's stepped up. Yet every time he fights I get a bit of a buzz and people are interested. Very rarely does a Bisping fight come and go without people getting invested in one way or another. His fights matter even when they don't because people care about the result.

 

That's what it all comes down to for me. The worst thing a fight can have is apathy. If no-one cares who wins and loses, it could still be a good fight, but it's way less rewarding as a fan.

 

So yeah, if you don't like McGregor, fair enough. It's when people start bellyaching that he's getting chances he doesn't deserve that I just think 'fuck off'.

 

Plus, take away all the trash talk for a second. Just imagine you've never heard of McGregor. You've got a new featherweight come in and his first four UFC fights are;

 

Marcus Brimage (Facebook prelims)

Max Holloway (FOX Sports prelims)

Diego Brandao (Fight Pass main event)

Dustin Poirier (PPV third from top)

 

That looks like a perfectly reasonable and logical path to me. I've seen people slag off his opposition but Brimage is fine as a debut opponent. Who would you expect a guy to debut against? And Brimage is a wrestler so on paper he shouldn't have been an easy night's work. Holloway is a very skilled up and comer and has looked great since. Brandao was dangerous on the feet and the ground.

 

He's progressing no quicker than anyone else really in terms of how the UFC is booking him. If they gave him a title shot straight after beating Brandao I'd understand but they're putting him in positions where he to prove himself.

 

Anyway...

 

I watched the first Embedded and I swore I wouldn't do it but I read some stuff on Sherdog. I can't believe people are looking at Embedded and basing predictions on that. I saw people basically saying 'man, Poirier is training like a beast and McGregor is just fucking about in his hotel room eating. Poirier by smash!!!'

 

It's a five minute fluff piece. Of course they've both been training. You're not going to see the entire training camp condensed into a five minute YouTube video. To assume McGregor hasn't been training properly, just because in one little video they showed edited short moments of his day where he's relaxing, is mental. Of course they showed more training footage of Poirier, because there's nothing else interesting about the bloke. Who wants to see him sitting in the hotel eating a banana and watching cartoons? Nothing wrong with that either but they don't have as much to work with there. Just baffles me how some people seem to actually put stock into Embedded when predicting how a fight will go.

 

Jesus. I was going to edit this down a bit but fuck it. Sorry.

 

As you were.

[Guy Bifkin]

I’m really looking forward to this event and definitely planning on staying up, or more likely getting up so I can watch it live. I have never seen Cruz, Alvarez or Zingano fight so looking forward to that.

 

In the absence of David I will say something controversial in that I like Mighty Mouse and don’t mind a bit of Flyweight action. I probably prefer it to the Heavyweight division if I’m honest. Still shame it’s not Jones vs DC especially as it looks like both will be spending their training camps for the rearranged fight scrapping chewing gum off pavements or whatever.

 

I want to see Romero squash Kennedy and McGregor’s antics don’t bother me one bit as long as he continues to do the business in the cage. I think he’ll finish Poirier. Always enjoy Cerrone and it sounds like a fantastic matchup with Alvarez on paper. I’ll pick Cowboy on points.  

 

 

[wandshogun09]

Anyway, back to actual fight discussion........

Who's gonna be putting some cash down this weekend?

 

I’m thinking of sticking a tenner on a Cruz, Zingano, McGregor & Johnson. Kennedy/Romero & Cerrone/Alvarez are too close to call. If the odds are right I might include Cerrone in there, he's on a tear (and one of my faves).

I'm not betting shit. I'm no good at it. It seems like even if I'm on a good run of predictions, as soon as I've got money riding on it I lose.

 

Plus I just want to enjoy the fights for this one. My heart will already be racing for Cerrone vs Alvarez and McGregor vs Poirier, and to a lesser extent the Romero, Zingano and Cruz fights. So adding the possibility of losing money on them would probably kill me. If my wife didn't kill me first, that is.

 

I don't even know who I'd bet on anyway. The main event isn't worth it because Cariaso winning would be the only way to win money, and that's surely not happening. The rest I'm really not confident enough who wins to put money down. I could see Cerrone vs Alvarez, McGregor vs Poirier, Romero vs Kennedy and Zingano vs Nunes going either way. And Cruz is a big question mark.

 

Who's everyone picking then, for the top fights? I'm going;

 

Johnson - Sub

Alvarez - Dec

Poirier - Sub

Romero - Dec

Nunes - TKO (just got a bad feeling Cat's getting a beating )

Cruz - Dec

[Egg Shen]

 

...and what exaxtly has he manufactured?

 

His fake 'rivalries' by calling out everyone in the division online & the cringeworthy shit talking. Got a legit beef with someone & want to fight them? Awesome, let's have it. Try to get your name in the press by fabricating rivalries with people you've never even met? No ta, I'm not that gullible.

We've had this discussion ad nauseum tbh. I don't like blatant fakery, others do...it's fine.

has Conor even created rivalries though? all he's ever done is tell everyone above him that he's coming to take their spot. A little bit of bad mouthing along the way doesn't hurt, its part of the game.

 

Conor has ambition and he's letting people know his intentions, if he didn't he'd just sit in the middle of the pack with the dozens of other fighters who fight 3-4 times a year to little fan-fair. In the day and age when people complain of over-saturation, making your presence felt has never been so important. If it wasnt for guys like Conor McGregor, MMA would be a lot less interesting to follow. You can't tell me you don't agree with that.

 

How would you prefer Conor goes about his business?

[Dead Mike]

In the absence of David I will say something controversial in that I like Mighty Mouse and don’t mind a bit of Flyweight action.

 

 

Me neither, the flyweights are never short of action & Johnson’s an absolute monster. What do people think of Rogan’s claim that he could be the best P4P fighter in the world? Is he ahead of Aldo/Jones?

 

 

How would you prefer Conor goes about his business?

 

The same way the likes of GSP, Couture, Liddell, Silva et al did. By going in there & doing the business like a champ. Without all the silly shit.

[Noah Southworth]

Johnson - Decision
Alvarez - Decision
Poirier - Submission
Romero - Decision
Nunes - TKO
Mizugaki - TKO

[wandshogun09]

He could potentially go in there and do the business anyway though. With "silly shit". The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can talk shit and still be a great fighter. Muhammad Ali for one.

 

Big Nog. That's all I want in a martial artist.

For all my rambling above, I can't really argue this either. He's the Nog's bollocks.

 

Bifkin - you're in for a treat with Alvarez. He's one of the absolute most exciting fighters in MMA, in any division. His UFC debut has been such a long time coming. If you get a bit of spare time before Saturday and fancy seeing what the fuss is about - his fights with Joachim Hansen, Tatsuya Kawajiri, Roger Huerta and Michael Chandler should be on YouTube. Any of them will do. This Cerrone fight should bring out the best of them both. They might be the two lightweights with the highest finishing ratios in MMA.

 

Watch Cerrone headkick him out cold in 30 seconds now, after me hyping him up.

 

Speaking of lightweight, when is Khabib Nurmagomedov due back from injury? If he's back in time to fight the Pettis vs Melendez winner I think he deserves the shot. But if he's going to be out a while, this Cerrone vs Alvarez fight could end up being for the title shot.

 

Whatever the results of Pettis vs Melendez and Cerrone vs Alvarez, I hope we finally get to see Melendez vs Alvarez at some point. In a five rounder preferably. That's a fight that's been talked about for years, when they were the two top 155ers outside the UFC. Anyone remember those texts a few years back between Coker and Rebney about a Strikeforce vs Bellator supershow? I remember Melendez vs Alvarez being one of the fights they cock-teased us with back then. Bastards.

[Supremo]

I'm a fan, not a Zuffa shareholder. The draw of fighters at the box office or how many t-shirts they sell is of absolutey no consequence.

It's this type of thing that always bothers me when we discuss this stuff. You and David always do it. Moving the goalposts. Either you care about this stuff, or you don't. I don't care either way. But you can't describe people like Aldo as, "successful," and use him as proof that pure sports draws fans, and then when somebody proves otherwise and explains how Aldo doesn't draw at all you just pull the, " I'm not a shareholder, don't talk to me about buys or ratings," card. Either you care or you don't. Either you want to talk about it or you don't. What's not fair is to make a blanket statement about that very subject, then move the goalposts and dive out of the discussion when somebody engages and provides some substance.

 

You don't have to like the spectacle element. You don't have to care about buys or ratings. But then don't bring them up and don't attempt to allude to them if you're not willing to discuss them properly.