TUF 19: Team Edgar vs Team Penn

[pryko]

Just finished catching up. Tat last episode with the weird ending was strange. The way it was being shown leading up to it with Dana saying "this can't happen" and the point deduction being shown and Mark Coleman shouting "WHAT!?" I knew that the Team Penn guy lost a point, so I had a feeling that after 3 rounds it was going to be a draw. Always wondered what would happen if somehow a fight ended a draw on TUF, and now we know

[wandshogun09]

BJ Penn is looking in top nick nearly a month out;

 

 

Not that I see him winning, but he's looked lean for ages now. He's obviously been training hard. He's usually all chubby out of camp but he came into this season of TUF looking in great shape. Seems like he's made this cut to 145 very gradually which is obviously smart. He's working with Mike Dolce so hopefully the Nova Uniao-weight cut issues will be a non-factor here.

[jimufctna24]

I stand by my opinion that prime vs prime, Penn would smoke Edgar. He really should have gotten the nod against him in during their first fight (all 3 Sherdog staff, most MMA media and myself all scored it for Penn).

 

However, I am not getting my hope up too much. Penn might get into good shape, but it is very reasonable to assume that he could still be a shell of his former self. Lighter weight fighters rarely peak in their 30's (unless you are Floyd, and some argue he has lost a step from his 2005-2006 pomp). Edgar will not have digressed from the fighter that spanked Penn in the second fight.

 

I want Penn to win, but I think Edgar will be too much for him at this stage.

 

Edgar wins by a wide points margin.

[bono]

Still watching the series every week but the fights (large majority)are lackluster at best. Not been a great season so far has it

[wandshogun09]

I stand by my opinion that prime vs prime, Penn would smoke Edgar. He really should have gotten the nod against him in during their first fight (all 3 Sherdog staff, most MMA media and myself all scored it for Penn).

 

I'm really going to have to watch that fight again before this third fight. I had Edgar winning at the time but it's really hazy and I haven't seen it since. I've seen enough criticism of the decision, from people who generally know what they're talking about, to make me second guess my original viewing of how the fight played out.

 

It could well be a case that because I went in fully expecting Penn to demolish him (and I did, there was no reason to expect Penn to be diminished from his spectacular maulings of Florian and Sanchez), that seeing Edgar be competitive made me (and maybe the judges) overly generous in scoring rounds to him.

 

I'll give it a rewatch over the next couple of weeks and see what's what.

 

However, I am not getting my hope up too much. Penn might get into good shape, but it is very reasonable to assume that he could still be a shell of his former self. Lighter weight fighters rarely peak in their 30's (unless you are Floyd, and some argue he has lost a step from his 2005-2006 pomp). Edgar will not have digressed from the fighter that spanked Penn in the second fight.

 

I want Penn to win, but I think Edgar will be too much for him at this stage.

 

Edgar wins by a wide points margin.

 

Pretty much exactly my thoughts to be honest. Penn being in such good shape so far out tells us one thing - he's taking this fight seriously. If he gets beaten soundly as most of us expect, then the common 'BJ Penn wasn't motivated' excuse won't wash with me. He's got himself in tremendous condition and maintained it for longer than at any point in his career. He's dedicated himself to this fully. He's been training with the likes of Aldo and Barao for months. He's doing the right things and giving himself the best chance possible. A loss won't be down to lack of motivation or conditioning, so those excuses are out.

 

He's basically making the best of whatever he has left. And that's the problem to me in a way, I don't think he has much left. We can't know for sure because he's been outsized and in the wrong division since 2010 now. He could look better at 145. But it just has the feel of too little-too late for me. And Frankie is a handful for anyone at the best of times.

 

Where next for the winner as well? I wouldn't be shocked if they fast-track the winner of this into a title shot. We could see the winner of Aldo/Mendes vs winner of Edgar/Penn. Would suck for Cub Swanson though, if he beats Jeremy Stephens I think he should get the next shot. I'd like to see the Edgar/Penn winner vs Urijah Faber. That'd be fun either way. And Faber is in a position now where he's probably open to just bouncing between 135-145 for name fights. Penn vs Faber was a bit of a dream fight a few years back, it'd still be pretty cool to see. And Edgar vs Faber would be incredible.

 

Oh yeah, TUF - this week's episode has Chris Fields vs Matt Van Buren. A fight that's been brewing since the early episodes with them having digs at each other a few times. Should be good.

[jimufctna24]

Penn was firmly in 2nd gear throughout the first fight. But still notched up the first 3 rounds in underwhelming fashion. I think you nailed it when you said people where kind to Edgar based on people not expecting him to do that well. If I recall right, either round 4 or 5 is also a disputable round. One is clearly Edgar's though, and I want to say it was the 5th round.

 

Franklin O'Neil (is he still about), caught a bunch of flak at the time, as he argued that Edgar won the fight as it took place in his domain (striking). His point was that Edgar won as he made BJ "fight his fight", which is like saying if Cain out-BJJ's Werdum for 5 rounds that Werdum should be given the win. Plus, it is not like Penn was purely a BJJ specialist going into that fight, so his point as silly as it was made zero sense anyway. Fucking hell I do not miss MMA Live with Anik and O,Neil.

 

When you rewatch the first fight, you should post your thoughts in the thread Wand

[Egg Shen]

yeh, what the hell happened to Franklin O'Neill??

[wandshogun09]

Franklin O'Neil (is he still about), caught a bunch of flak at the time, as he argued that Edgar won the fight as it took place in his domain (striking). His point was that Edgar won as he made BJ "fight his fight", which is like saying if Cain out-BJJ's Werdum for 5 rounds that Werdum should be given the win. Plus, it is not like Penn was purely a BJJ specialist going into that fight, so his point as silly as it was made zero sense anyway. Fucking hell I do not miss MMA Live with Anik and O,Neil.

 

Yeah, that's a weird way of looking at it. Penn has long been considered one of the best boxers in MMA, even Freddie Roach was complimentary of Penn's boxing years ago. So it's not like a standup fight favoured Edgar to where you'd see it as him 'making Penn fight his fight'. Penn probably wanted it on the feet anyway.

 

I really thought Penn was going to wreck Edgar going into that fight. I thought Penn's takedown defence would negate Frankie's wrestling. And on the feet, although Edgar's boxing was always really good, I thought Penn's power would make the difference. I honestly expected a massacre like the Joe Stevenson fight. So maybe it is a case of Edgar doing better than I thought swaying me. I seem to remember Rogan acting like Frankie was running away with it as well. All that combined with me being a bit pissed and my brother chatting shit all the way through (seriously, when he's drunk he waffles on more than Chael), I was probably not far off Jeff 'Mr 30-27 Sanchez' Collins by the time Edgar came jogging down the aisle to Biggie.

 

I'll try to squeeze in a rewatch of the fight this week. I'll dissect and examine it and post my findings in here when I can be arsed. Signed Dr Wand.

[Egg Shen]

Dana admitted in his 174 scrum that Season is easily the most disappointing season in TUF history...id have to agree. For a show that's losing steam with the fans to have such a boring and uneventful season sucks for the UFC right now.

 

The biggest problem with the season is the actual fights. I've said prior that i feel the UFC should have a 40 minute show then tack the fight on the end regardless of how long it lasts, i know that's unlikely due to TV but with a Fight Pass season i think it's something they could do. When the fights are going the full 3 rounds it leaves very little room to create, show any drama in the house and actually make it an engaging season. It becomes less of a reality show and more of a lets just watch 2 random guys fight show...and when them fights suck, it's not good.

 

Dana read the remaining guys the riot act at the fight announcement this week.

[Dead Mike]

This many seasons into TUF & Dana gets angry at them for

[wandshogun09]

Here's Dana bollocking them for anyone who didn't see it/can't be arsed to watch the whole episode;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&a...mp;noredirect=1

 

I'm with that Mike. I think now the fighters have seen 20-odd seasons of TUF, they know how it works and they want to just get to the semis the least banged up as possible. Once they hit the semis, then they can let shit fly because they'll get time to heal up before their camp for the finals. It makes no sense to go mental in the first rounds of the tournament when you've got to fight again in a week or something. Doesn't make for exciting fights sometimes but that's where we are with TUF now.

 

I didn't watch TUF Nations but I'm sure someone said on here that Elias Theodourou was way more impressive at the finale than he was on the show. I think a lot of guys are holding back a bit more these days to get through the early rounds. It doesn't make for entertaining telly but you can't really be too harsh on the fighters because they are taking the intelligent approach in a tournament format.

 

The intelligent approach in theory anyway. But knowing how Dana is, you'd think they'd know that if you fight like that and then lose in the semis or something, you probably won't be called back.

 

It's been a bit of a wet fart, this season. And I actually went in pretty excited. The fights haven't been good, there's no rivalry really between the coaches, there hasn't been enough Coleman, Dana has been at his moany worst since pretty much episode 1, and the feel of TUF these days is just stale as fuck anyway. There's nothing actually wrong with what they're doing, it's just all too samey these days. At least the upcoming Womens TUF and the Latin America one are something a bit new, so I'm hoping they'll deliver.

 

Dana did say the fights pick up towards the end of this TUF, but who knows? It's his job to try to convince people not to give up on it. I wouldn't be surprised if we see four stinkers in the semis as well. He was saying he's not even sure he wants any of the runners up in the finale. I reckon they'll keep Chris Fields around a little bit just because he's Irish, but they'll probably stick him on the Dublin card. Pendred too if he loses in the semis. For the sake of a couple of weeks, it'd make more sense to stick those two on the Dublin show than the finale.

[Egg Shen]

Fields has looked terrible in both of his fights.

 

Ive spoken about the 'fighting safe' before, its 100% understandable and i think the UFC have to change the forumla? how i dont know, but they need too.

 

Any ideas?

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Fields has looked shit, but I won't be shocked if they just whack him on the Dublin card. They've kept guys around before even with losses, just because they've got an event in their country and they want home fighters on there (KID Yamamoto is still under contract as far as I know). Filling the card with McGregor, Seery, Fields and possibly Pendred makes sense in that regard.

[Egg Shen]

Cajun Johnson is on the Canada card this weekend too.

[Egg Shen]

TUF Nations

TUF Nations proved that there's still some kind of legs in the format, it was a very good season. Maybe the way to go is to just capitalize on that 'novelty' factor like the Australia vs. Canada thing, it adds a little extra spice and you really have a divide in the house which makes for better TV from the reality show side of things.