Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Supremo said: him and Becky had anti-chemistry together. This is a huge part of it for me. If it weren't for the fact they were booking him to go over Lesnar, I'd say there was a conscious attempt to emasculate Seth since he and Becky went public - and I'm still not entirely convinced this wasn't the case. If I were to think of WWE as playing 4D Chess in this instance, rather than just winging it, I'd say that WWE don't want Becky Lynch to be seen as being in a relationship, either because it undermines her as a independent woman for female fans living vicariously through her, because it undermines her being seen as "available" to male fans, or because Vince is a lunatic with weird views on women and doesn't think that Seth and Becky being a couple is "believable", a la Rusev and Lana, or Vince thinks Seth is already inherently emasculated by dating a woman more over than he is. He thinks Seth is the Marc Mero to Becky's Sable. So Seth has been booked to look like a pathetic loser, because on some level Vince already thinks that what he is. Because all of this terrible babyface booking is post-Wrestlemania, post-Seth and Becky being an item. Pre-Wrestlemania, he was winning the Rumble, beating Lesnar, and knocking about with The Shield, post-Wrestlemania, he became Becky Lynch's second banana, dropped the belt right back to Brock, dropped the tag belts to a first-time team of midcarders, all the nonsense with The Fiend, and so on. I honestly wonder if they're consciously allowing him to crash and burn, in time for Roman Reigns to step back up to the plate in Wrestlemania season and be welcomed with open arms now he's not the primary object of the fans' disapproval. There's a broader issue of top babyfaces in general, though, as a result of 20 years of booking the WWE itself as a heel company, exacerbated by CM Punk and Daniel Bryan's main event runs being defined by not being WWE's idea of what a top guy looks like, and Bryan's run in particular teaching the audience that if you don't like something, and make enough noise about it, WWE will change their plans, meaning that any top babyface is automatically, paradoxically positioned as a heel to a significant portion of the fanbase, because they're the "Corporate Champion" by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted October 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2019 I think that's the biggest danger of this new Saudi/Fox era. The guaranteed billions make it easier than ever for Vince to do that self-fulfilling-prophecy, Mysterio-in-06 booking, where he decides someone's a tit and so books them to fail accordingly. He's got barely any incentive at all to swallow pride or take a fair shot on guys he can't see anything in. There's a foundation level of incompetence there, exemplified by how much they fucked Roman up despite clearly wanting him to be the guy, but then beyond that there's definitely that inherent loophole with pro-wrestling, where you can forever prove yourself right by purposely squandering anyone you say can't make it. Pat yourself on the back for being right, in spite of yourself. Ricochet reeks of it at the moment. I'm not saying he's the next Rock or Stone Cold, but fuck me, he's not even Ricochet anymore. He's getting less over the more they give him the half-arse push and frankly, why the fuck would Vince care? The money's gonna come rolling in whether he tries to capitalise on his potential or not. But yeah, on the Joe front, check this out. That's a babyface, Compare it with Seth Rollins literally screaming and crying in fear. He's the man. I'll never ever get over them seeing this and going, "yeah, one F5 and a clean pin seems the correct way to proceed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Joe is definitely one of the most frustrating treatments in recent years. He's fantastic on the mic, a good hand in the ring and generally has this aura about him that feels completely legit. Why they haven't given him a decent run with a belt is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: I honestly wonder if they're consciously allowing him to crash and burn, in time for Roman Reigns to step back up to the plate in Wrestlemania season and be welcomed with open arms now he's not the primary object of the fans' disapproval. There's a broader issue of top babyfaces in general, though, as a result of 20 years of booking the WWE itself as a heel company, exacerbated by CM Punk and Daniel Bryan's main event runs being defined by not being WWE's idea of what a top guy looks like, and Bryan's run in particular teaching the audience that if you don't like something, and make enough noise about it, WWE will change their plans, meaning that any top babyface is automatically, paradoxically positioned as a heel to a significant portion of the fanbase, because they're the "Corporate Champion" by default. That’s the quandary - the only way they’ll ever keep the boos off either Roman or Seth now is by pushing the other one more. Turning Rollins heel sabotages a Kevin Owens babyface champion run, because the only way Owens isn’t the “corporate champion” by default is if Rollins is still taking up the real top babyface spot (which is also the top heel spot) on Raw. It’s an easy prediction to make that Cain Velasquez’ biggest contribution to the show will be when he is booked to win a Rumble or Elimination Chamber or something and becomes a catalyst for the next “held down” guy to rise up against. But that guy is still probably doomed within six months of the WrestleMania moment. Rollins, Lynch, Kofi. We can moan about their booking since WrestleMania, but the horrible truth of toxic wrestling fandom is that Our Boys become way less interesting once Vince submits to us and lets them win the belt at WrestleMania. There are only three kinds of visible wrestler at any one time - wrestlers who Vince pushes too much, wrestlers who Vince doesn’t push enough, and wrestlers who are new. Everyone else fades into the forgettable blur of content. The only story they get any traction with is Fans Dig Up Someone Evil Vince Buried, and we don’t give much of a fuck once that’s happened. The big breakthrough will be if they come up with characters we care about. I don’t know how possible that is, though. We don’t so much care about Becky Lynch as a character, we care about Vince listening to our orders to book Becky Lynch to beat Ronda Rousey for the belt. Same sort of thing with KofiMania, Daniel Bryan in 2014, etc. The stories are built for the WrestleMania moment, as though it should fade to black, but there’s Raw the next night, and we face the reality of “okay so now they are being pushed, but now it’s still same old Raw just with them on top.” Getting to interesting characters rather than Pushed Too Much vs Not Pushed Enough would be brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2019 The entire presentation needs to change drastically, and in such a way that we no longer have the Vince vs. The World dichotomy. So that we're no longer looking at every booking decision and analysing it to figure out whether it was down to appease the shareholders, the advertisers, the Saudis, or Vince, and instead following the story and spending this time talking about where it might be going next. So that we're no longer looking at WWE as a company in constant conflict with its own fanbase. I don't know how they even begin to do that, without a serious, long-term period of restructuring the fundamentals of how WWE presents wrestling, and there's no appetite for that within the company or without, as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: Rollins, Lynch, Kofi. We can moan about their booking since WrestleMania, but the horrible truth of toxic wrestling fandom is that Our Boys become way less interesting once Vince submits to us and lets them win the belt at WrestleMania. There are only three kinds of visible wrestler at any one time - wrestlers who Vince pushes too much, wrestlers who Vince doesn’t push enough, and wrestlers who are new. Everyone else fades into the forgettable blur of content. The only story they get any traction with is Fans Dig Up Someone Evil Vince Buried, and we don’t give much of a fuck once that’s happened. The big breakthrough will be if they come up with characters we care about. I don’t know how possible that is, though. We don’t so much care about Becky Lynch as a character, we care about Vince listening to our orders to book Becky Lynch to beat Ronda Rousey for the belt. Same sort of thing with KofiMania, Daniel Bryan in 2014, etc. The stories are built for the WrestleMania moment, as though it should fade to black, but there’s Raw the next night, and we face the reality of “okay so now they are being pushed, but now it’s still same old Raw just with them on top.” Getting to interesting characters rather than Pushed Too Much vs Not Pushed Enough would be brilliant. I was just going to argue with the first paragraph because you've done a Pitcos and blamed the "toxic wrestling fandom" but I'm glad I've read on because in the whole context, you've nailed it. You're absolutely right. They keep getting these short term boosts because fans get behind someone for some reason, often because they seem them as being under-valued but in the case of Rollins just because they're on a roll and being booked pretty well, but then once they get the spot, they don't know how to follow it up. There's never the next story or the next opponent lined up and the momentum dies. "Getting to interesting characters rather than Pushed Too Much vs Not Pushed Enough would be brilliant." Great climax. Will this day ever come again? I'm starting to think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinc Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Do we reckon WWE ever approaches other companies like EA, Disney, etc who have their own problems with toxic fandom in order to compare notes on how to overcome it? Surely there are some clever people trying to work out how to get Star Wars fans to stop shitting on Solo/The Last Jedi/whatever? Its more embarrassing for WWE because everything they do is in front of a live audience. If The Last Jedi had a live crowd track, jesus, think of the boos when Luke drank that blue milk straight from the puppet’s tit. It’d be Reigns-like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) As BomberPat says, it seems impossible to change the game at the moment. The way the entire dynamic works, the only way for someone to go after the big WrestleMania title win is to undercut it and keep them in the Still Buried camp, or they become the obstacle for the next person going through that same journey. Pinc, you’ve established the key difference in wrestling - the live audience. Film, video game etc companies aren’t putting out product that includes a backing track from the haters. I think Pat posted recently about how from the TV crowds and the online bubble, you’d think WWE is pushing people like Reigns and Cena who everyone hates, whereas there’d be plenty of actual metrics in place to demonstrate they’re the ones driving revenue. Edited October 31, 2019 by King Pitcos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cutting Edge Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 My pick for next possible mania opponent/top guy would be Aleister Black, he's been booked well through nxt to sd to raw, granted last 2 he didn't do much but least he wasn't beaten or wasted so he still has a mystique that could be built on, him being slowly built up for next few months with a "shock" rumble win would be fresh and at least he has a legit feel to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinc Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 God I’d actually forgotten about Joe. The fans would never turn on him. He’s the guy. Owens too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philjax Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Episode saved by new gear to match the gimmick for Kairi Sane..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 3:52 PM, King Pitcos said: We don’t so much care about Becky Lynch as a character, we care about Vince listening to our orders to book Becky Lynch to beat Ronda Rousey for the belt. So why did her popularity skyrocket when she developed her character? Is it just a coincidence? Her popularity dropped after Mania for a number of reasons, but it wasn’t down to fans getting bored after we got what we wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 33 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said: So why did her popularity skyrocket when she developed her character? Is it just a coincidence? When would you say "she developed her character"? Becky's popularity skyrocketed when Charlotte Flair was added to (and then won) the SmackDown women's title at last year's SummerSlam. That was the point where Charlotte was confirmed as the latest Cena/Reigns by Real Wrestling Fans, and Becky became deir only hope. Then Vince booked Becky to win the belt in the main event of WrestleMania - after that, there was nothing to rally against, and no room to pretend that she wasn't the anointed one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: When would you say "she developed her character"? Becky's popularity skyrocketed when Charlotte Flair was added to (and then won) the SmackDown women's title at last year's SummerSlam. That was the point where Charlotte was confirmed as the latest Cena/Reigns by Real Wrestling Fans, and Becky became deir only hope. Then Vince booked Becky to win the belt in the main event of WrestleMania - after that, there was nothing to rally against, and no room to pretend that she wasn't the anointed one. When she changed her promo style, starting throwing out great insults on Twitter and then the Raw invasion where Nia smashed her face. She became a total badass. Are you actually going to pretend she didn’t develop into a great character and that her popularity was totally down to Charlotte being picked to face Ronda? Then she won the title and went straight into a dull program with Lacey Evans. WWE have an awful habit of not following up after Wrestlemania. Edited November 2, 2019 by UK Kat Von D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TildeGuy~! Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 She’s also now engaged to probably the most hated person in the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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