Bret hart

[air_raid]

Re : Savage - Ian (or Butch), how did Savage draw against Austin Idol?

 

(I really thought his knee was wrecked at SummerSlam '92),

 

For me personally, I also did at Mania VIII. And the match he lost it to Flair. And lots of his Coliseum defences against Shawn and Flair. Savage was an absolute master. Even into 1993 and 1994 I feared for him in every match thinking if his opponent went for the bad leg he'd be in trouble.

 

Bret will always be up there as one of the best ever, and what makes him so great is I couldn't really tell you why he was so great. Bret was all about the little things and making them mean something. He can always draw me in and make me care with and about the most subtle of things.

 

This is it, 100%. Bret would do things during his match that you only spot when you look for them. If he takes a sharp boot in the face, about three minutes later after he's regained the advantage and done an offensive move and is back in complete control, he'll take a moment and rub his jaw, because he wants you to see it still hurts. Or the little facial expressions - the pretty universally-lauded Kid match from Raw is full of them. The surprise/bemusement/acknowledgement of skill after Kid armdrags him the first time, the exhausted look of "oh my God what's happening" when he spills to the ground, just before Kid dives on him, the relief after he puts the plucky youngster away (at last). The guy was a storyteller par excellence.

 

To be fair, Bret is quite a bit older than the others of that era, so there was only so much post 90s length available to him, and injuries and a stroke took care of that.

 

Yup. Bret retired having not shaken off post-concussion syndrome at 42, Shawn was not much older at 44 when he finished up. He got his breaks - getting into the WWF, promotion to singles, winning his first World title, a lot older than many at each stage. Bret was 35 when he took his first WWF title from the Nature Boy.

 

Just to illustrate how things change - Randy Orton has held one or the other of WWE's World titles nine times to date, and is still only 33, and when John Cena beat the Rock to win his thirteenth title he was still only 35.

[Arch Stanton]

Bret was 35 when he took his first WWF title from the Nature Boy.

Just to illustrate how things change - Randy Orton has held one or the other of WWE's World titles nine times to date, and is still only 33, and when John Cena beat the Rock to win his thirteenth title he was still only 35.

Mind: Blown.

 

That's a pretty astonishing fact isn't it?

[ShortOrderCook]

That is fascinating. And when you consider Bret was perhaps only really reaching his true peak in 1997 and that was only halted by the events that occurred to him and the concussion...and how good the likes of Michaels, Triple H and Undertaker have gone on to be in their later years...those lads could have some frighteningly good years ahead of them just yet.

[Jimmy Boy]

Loved everyone's insight to all of this! I've often wondered where his career woulda gone had he stayed with the wwe and been a part of the attitude era, how his character might have changed etc! It's sad to think that, as already mentioned, he was at his peak in 1997 until it all got derailed, I'm sure we woulda seen some great stuff with the Hitman in the attitude era facing Austin, Rock, hunter etc but also can't help feeling he might have been out of place?! Who knows, we will never know as we don't know how his character would have looked during this time!

[King Pitcos]

I remember discussing this on here some time ago and Ian suggested Bret could've taken Mick Foley's place as Vince's stooge after WrestleMania 14. It would've made sense, Bret being the bastion of strong values and honour and having the backstory with Austin (who never properly beat the Hitman in 1997, did he?). Assuming that was Bret's role for the first couple of pay-per-views after Austin won the belt, I wonder where he'd go from there. Hart Foundation vs the HHH-led DX seems a natural fit in some ways and The Outlaws vs Owen and Bulldog could've been really good, but where would that have left The Nation? And would Bret have dropped down to Intercontinental level to feud with Hunter? It is fascinating to think of how different things would have been. Bret (and Shawn) leaving the picture was pretty vital for the likes of Rock, Foley and HHH flourishing.

[air_raid]

Maybe if Montreal hadn't gone down the way it did, maybe Shawn wouldn't have been having a casket match with Taker and gotten hurt. Pretty sure the Bret/Shawn plan that Vince laid out to Bret to "try and persuade him to stay" involved them working together at the Rumble (ladder match I think), Bret finally getting the belt back the next night on Raw, then dropping it to Austin at 'Mania. I've typed it up on here so often I should know it by heart by now.

 

A healthy Shawn and the Harts all still around would have also precipitated "Mayhem In Manchester" at the MEN being the planned Michaels/Bulldog European title rematch. They'd have filled the place and got a good PPV number off Davey's chance at redemption back home in the North West, I imagine. And Shawn had promised to return the favour for Bulldog.

 

Maybe Davey would never have been in WCW to hurt his back on Warrior's trapdoor, and end up with his painkiller addiction. And maybe Owen would never have ended up fannying around in his Blazer costume and been up in rafters in the Kemper Arena. Maybe all three of them would still be knocking around together just fine today.

[Jimmy Boy]

Anyone else get a bit bemused when bret talks about his 'character'?! Didn't he mainly pay himself

[Ant]

A healthy Shawn and the Harts all still around would have also precipitated "Mayhem In Manchester" at the MEN being the planned Michaels/Bulldog European title rematch. They'd have filled the place and got a good PPV number off Davey's chance at redemption back home in the North West, I imagine. And Shawn had promised to return the favour for Bulldog.

 

Didn't they still achieve a sell out?

[Loki]

Anyone else get a bit bemused when bret talks about his 'character'?! Didn't he mainly pay himself

 

At the very least, it was a distilled or exaggerated version of himself. A bit like John Cena in many respects, it's still a character even though it's not a "gimmick" character.

[L_E_T_H_A_L]

Bret was an excellent all-rounder, and my opinion was that when he retired in 2000, he was one of the top 2 wrestlers in history along with Flair. However, since then I feel his career has been bested by those of Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, Edge and Kurt Angle.

 

In the mid-nineties, Bret and Shawn Michaels set the WWF standard for in-ring quality impeccably high. So high, in fact that few others of that era were able to reach it. Between them they inspired a generation of superb workers. That for me is Bret's lasting legacy.

[Chest Rockwell]

Question - is there a better cage match than the one he had with Owen at SS '94?

 

I can't think of one off the top of my head.

 

It puts pretty much any other cage match you can think of to shame simply by actully making sense.

[L_E_T_H_A_L]

Question - is there a better cage match than the one he had with Owen at SS '94?

 

I can't think of one off the top of my head.

 

It puts pretty much any other cage match you can think of to shame simply by actully making sense.

 

That could be a thread on its own, Chest.

 

If you don't count HIAC matches, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

[PowerButchi]

Question - is there a better cage match than the one he had with Owen at SS '94?

 

Yes. Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard at Starrcade 85, Ric Flair vs Harley Race from Starrcade 83, Jerry Lawler vs Austin Idol hair vs hair match, quite a few more too.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton, Tully vs Magnum and Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano are the greatest cage matches I've seen.

 

Was there even blood in Bret vs Owen? I need me some claret in the cage.

[TheShowOff]

Question - is there a better cage match than the one he had with Owen at SS '94?

 

I can't think of one off the top of my head.

 

It puts pretty much any other cage match you can think of to shame simply by actully making sense.

 

In terms of a standard steel cage match? I'd say it is my favourite. I remember watching it at the time and finding it incredibly exciting, and it still holds up today. The match was like a race to escape the cage, not to use to cage to batter your opponent. The post match stuff was great also with Davey Boy, Anvil and the rest of the Hart clan. Just tremendous. A close second would be Steiner's vs Money INC from almost exactly a year earlier which fit a similar mould, but I wont get into that here.

 

#GoBretGo