UFC 155: 'Dos Santos vs Velasquez 2'

[wandshogun09]

Finally caught this one this morning. Like everyone said, it wasn't much of a show before the last 2 fights. Luckily those 2 fights delivered.

 

Dos Santos vs Velasquez 2

I was gutted with this. I really like Cain but Dos Santos is the new Big Nog for me and it's shit to watch him catch a beating. And this was a bad beating. It bothered me more than I thought it would, watching JDS get beat up. He seems like such a good bloke it's like watching your best mate or your favourite uncle taking a battering.

 

Even the biggest Cain hater has to admit that the injury played a huge part in the first fight after that performance.

 

Surely Cain doesn't have actual haters does he? There's nothing to dislike about him. But I still don't think the first fight can just be chalked up as a fluke because of Cain's knee. Again, both were hurt last time.

 

The first fight JDS stuffed a takedown and landed the perfect shot, early on when his punches were at full power. That's all. This time he stuffed a few early shots but was never able to connect. Cain's defence was better and he fought more aggressively mixing between striking and wrestling.

 

In the stuff I've read post-fight it amazes me how quick people have turned on JDS. Fuck those bandwagon jumping twats. People are saying JDS' first win over Cain was pure luck, acting like he was all hype etc. I've even seen people saying he was cocky. What the fuck?

 

Cain fought a fantastic fight. Full credit to him and I look forward to him smashing Overeem if that fight happens. But the way people have turned on Dos Santos and especially the booing after the fight leaves a sour taste. I hate that type of fan. Glory hunting mongs.

 

* First off, Cain Velasquez, holy shit that was a performance. If there's any critisicm it's gonna be of course about his power again, it is the one think he seems to lack, that freaky KO power, standing he seems to have it, but his ground and pound doesn't have that snap...i put it more down to Cain thinking as much about control and throwing punches but you have to feel JDS was there to be taken out on several occasion.

 

Yeah there's been times when Cain has had trouble putting guys away with ground strikes. But to be fair Dos Santos clearly has a rock chin. Under that assault I think most heavyweights would have been stopped after 2 rounds. Cain's GnP looked devestating against Lesnar and Rothwell so it's clear he can drop bombs from there. I think he probably just knew JDS was insanely tough and didn't wanna blow his load.

 

Standing though, he clearly packs a lot of power. Carwin and Nelson landed big shots flush on JDS' chin and he didn't even seem to notice. That big right hand in round 1 was brutal and was the only time we've seen JDS hurt with a punch.

 

If I had one criticism of Cain, and I don't even mean this as a criticism, it would be that I think this Cardio Cain stuff is a bit of a myth. Yes he sets a great pace, especially for a heavyweight, and it worked a treat here. He has good cardio for a heavyweight. But despite what Rogan was saying on the commentary, Cain looked almost as gassed as Dos Santos by round 3. He was knackered. He admitted as much himself at the press conference. Yet Rogan never mentioned it and it was all about Cardio Cain and how shit JDS' cardio was in comparison. This stuff that Cain never gets tired is bollocks. Again, not a knock on him, the pace they were going you should be tired.

 

I think Rogan and Dana clearly wanted Cain to win this, which I guess made me want JDS to win even more in a way. They're trying to crack Mexico this year so Cain winning will help. Also, Dana and Rogan were hyping Cain up something fierce long before Cain was champ, JDS made them look silly in the first fight, so I think this was as much a redemption for them as it was for Cain in some ways. I'd love to have heard Rogan if JDS would have somehow scored a 5th round come from behind KO.

 

 

Poor JDS.

 

Jesus, he looks like;

 

 

I've gone on long enough on this fight but I'll just say, it's made me an even bigger fan of Dos Santos. He took a beating, took about as perfect a KO punch as you can and fought 20 more minutes, was swollen up like the Elephant Man, gassed...and yet still kept coming out for the next round and Cain still couldn't hold him down. Now he knows what Cain is truly capable of he can work to fix the holes and the next fight could be even better.

 

I hope he bounces back, wins a few and we get the big rubber match in at least about a year's time. I don't want them to rush it.

 

Anyway...

 

Miller vs Lauzon

Fucking loved this. In fact, I think it's replaced Jung/Poirier as my FOTY. Brilliant fight, Lauzon's as tough as they come. Miller looked better than ever early on, the blood, the bit when the ref stopped it for the loose tape and Lauzon and Miller were casually chatting, the mental flying scissors leg-lock in the 3rd, the choke and then Miller's "holy shit" at the final bell. Fantastic.

 

Philippou vs Boetsch

I quite enjoyed this. I like Philippou, I don't see him having enough to really trouble the top guys but he's a good fighter. I think he might be a little bit one dimensional though, but it's working for now. Felt bad for Boetsch. How much shit luck can you get. I thought he hurt his foot on that Seagal kick at first, on the replay he winced after it landed. Then there was the hand injury, the eye, the blood. Fuck. Poor bastard.

 

Okami vs Belcher

This was shit. Okami fought the right fight but it wasn't much fun to watch. And Belcher just got shut down. It didn't help that he kept going for guillotines and winding up on bottom. Seriously, I think it happened in every round. It wasn't so much Okami's takedowns that were putting him on the ground (in fact Belcher was doing a great job of ending up on top from Okami's shots), he just kept trying guillotines, losing them then spending the rest of the round on bottom. Okami's too good at controlling from the top to risk the guillotine unless you've got it deep. Frustrating fight to watch.

 

I'd like to see Okami vs Philippou and Belcher vs the loser of Bisping/Belfort next.

 

Leben vs Brunson

Bloody awful fight. Understandable in a way given Leben's ring rust and Brunson's possible 'Octagon jitters'. But still, crap fight. Leben looked terrible and Brunson looked terrified.

 

Prelims were good.

 

*Erik Perez looks like on to keep an eye on. He comes across very likeable as well, always got a smile on his face, but he's vicious as fuck in the cage. That knee to the body made me cringe.

 

*Varner vs Guillard was good. The one judge scoring it 30-27 to Melvin was absolute bollocks though. What the fuck was he watching? It's not like Varner and Guillard look alike is it? Horrible judging. Varner looked very good, Melvin had his moments but Varner was winning the rounds.

 

I'm still hoping we get Varner vs Cerrone 3 at some point. I think even if Cerrone beats Pettis, he will need another win before a title shot. Especially if Melendez does come straight in and fight Bendo. So Cerrone vs Varner 3 would fit the bill nicely I reckon. If not, Varner vs Jim Miller would be great.

 

*Duffee returned in style. De Fries gave him a bit of trouble with the brief takedown and punches against the fence but Duffee was too much on the feet. Just too much raw power and strength. If De Fries could have dragged the fight later his style might have worked for him but he couldn't weather the storm.

 

*Holloway vs Garcia was an exciting fight, it's always fun to watch technique vs brawling. And despite the criticism Garcia gets he's very experienced and always dangerous so this was a good test for Holloway early in his career. Close fight, on first watch I thought Garcia shaded it actually but it could've gone either way.

 

Good event. It was only really the first 2 main card fights that let it down. Like 149, those fights being back to back almost killed the event. Lauzon and Miller brought it back to life though.

[David]

But I still don't think the first fight can just be chalked up as a fluke because of Cain's knee. Again, both were hurt last time.

 

The first fight JDS stuffed a takedown and landed the perfect shot, early on when his punches were at full power. That's all. This time he stuffed a few early shots but was never able to connect. Cain's defence was better and he fought more aggressively mixing between striking and wrestling.

Anyone who refers to the first fight as a fluke is an idiot, but the the truth is that the circumstances leading into that fight did play a part in how it went. Having a bad knee injury plays havoc with pretty much every element of your gameplan. You can't pivot properly to throw a punch, you can't explode properly to attempt a takedown, you can't shift your weight quickly in order to move and step away from punches and so on.

 

There's no guarantee that Velasquez would have won the first fight fully fit, but the fight on Saturday certainly suggests that he would have. It wasn't even a close fight. Everyone assumed that Dos Santos would have the advantage standing, but even that was questionable. Before Velasquez caught him with the big shot that rocked him he was clearly getting through with his punches far more than Dos Santos was.

 

In the stuff I've read post-fight it amazes me how quick people have turned on JDS. Fuck those bandwagon jumping twats. People are saying JDS' first win over Cain was pure luck, acting like he was all hype etc. I've even seen people saying he was cocky. What the fuck?

 

Cain fought a fantastic fight. Full credit to him and I look forward to him smashing Overeem if that fight happens. But the way people have turned on Dos Santos and especially the booing after the fight leaves a sour taste. I hate that type of fan. Glory hunting mongs.

Fight fans, and especially MMA fans are a fickle bunch. Fuck 'em.

 

Philippou vs Boetsch

I quite enjoyed this. I like Philippou, I don't see him having enough to really trouble the top guys but he's a good fighter. I think he might be a little bit one dimensional though, but it's working for now. Felt bad for Boetsch. How much shit luck can you get. I thought he hurt his foot on that Seagal kick at first, on the replay he winced after it landed. Then there was the hand injury, the eye, the blood. Fuck. Poor bastard.

Man, Boetsch couldn't catch a break, could he? He took the first frame as far as I was concerned, and I didn't really see Phillipou troubling him all that much, then the roof fell in on him. That eyepoke looked fucking nasty.

[wandshogun09]

Anyone who refers to the first fight as a fluke is an idiot, but the the truth is that the circumstances leading into that fight did play a part in how it went. Having a bad knee injury plays havoc with pretty much every element of your gameplan. You can't pivot properly to throw a punch, you can't explode properly to attempt a takedown, you can't shift your weight quickly in order to move and step away from punches and so on.

 

True, but JDS had a knee injury as well. Even if it wasn't as severe as Cain's (it was still bad enough that he was on crutches 10 days before the fight), he was still able to stuff a takedown and land the KO punch. I'm not saying Cain's knee had nothing to do with the first fight but people are acting like that's the only reason JDS won last time. That's what bothers me.

 

There's no guarantee that Velasquez would have won the first fight fully fit, but the fight on Saturday certainly suggests that he would have. It wasn't even a close fight. Everyone assumed that Dos Santos would have the advantage standing, but even that was questionable. Before Velasquez caught him with the big shot that rocked him he was clearly getting through with his punches far more than Dos Santos was.

 

Neither were fully fit last time and JDS got the KO. It could have happened again this time. Cain fought smarter. I still say in a straight striking match JDS would win but it's MMA and Cain had a very smart gameplan. He gave JDS more to think about. Everyone, especially after how the first fight ended, expected Cain to wrestle from the off, so he was able to use that to land his punches. He shot enough to make JDS lower his hands, then he threw punches, when JDS was expecting punches he shot for takedowns. It was a great strategy. That's one problem with JDS' style, you know exactly what he's going to try to do.

 

Everyone knows what JDS does, he knocks people out. He did it the first time, he wasn't able to this time. For people to discredit the first win is shite. Based on this rematch you'd have to pick Cain in the rubber match. I would, we know now that he can take JDS down, he can hurt JDS, he can tire him out. But the fact is JDS could well KO him again. He's got good enough takedown defence and dangerous enough striking to do it. It all depends how he rebuilds himself from this loss. The skills are there, Cain has never had that much trouble keeping anyone else down. JDS popped up repeatedly. He was like Michael fucking Myers. He just couldn't shake Cain off long enough to land his shots. And after being hurt in round 1, it seemed to sap the power out of his punches as well. So after round 1, he didn't have enough left in the tank to hurt Cain. There were times in round 3 and 4 where Cain looked fucked to me cardio wise. If JDS had more left at that time he could have capitalised I reckon, he was still landing shots but he was physically spent from the 1st round knockdown onwards.

 

So yeah, I'm giving Cain full credit for this win. It was a flawless performance. But I still think JDS should be given the full credit for his win last year.

[Egg Shen]

If I had one criticism of Cain, and I don't even mean this as a criticism, it would be that I think this Cardio Cain stuff is a bit of a myth. Yes he sets a great pace, especially for a heavyweight, and it worked a treat here. He has good cardio for a heavyweight. But despite what Rogan was saying on the commentary, Cain looked almost as gassed as Dos Santos by round 3. He was knackered. He admitted as much himself at the press conference. Yet Rogan never mentioned it and it was all about Cardio Cain and how shit JDS' cardio was in comparison. This stuff that Cain never gets tired is bollocks. Again, not a knock on him, the pace they were going you should be tired.

i agree to an extent.

 

There's no doubt Cain has good cardio, to say he never gets tired though is ridiculous...i know it's not related but Rogan used to get on high horse about Cabbage having ridiculous cardio back in the day "dont let the physique fool you", this is kinda similar. What Cain does have him that sets him apart is a grinding style that benefits from him having better cardio than most, when hes tossing guys around and leaning all over them he just drains people and he's able to stay one step ahead energy wise...to say hes some kind of super athlete that never gets tired is ridiculous.

 

I don't think there's many heavyweights that can match Cain for cardio in a grappling style match, but he's not inhuman

[Egg Shen]

...what i didn't agree with was the talk of Junior having unbelievable takedown defence prior to the fight, "the guys spent 13 seconds on his back", it's all well and good but its safe to say that Junior has had favourable run of opponents when it comes to that statistic. The guys he's fought that you would think may have trouble taking him down (Carwin, Werdum, Nelson) all boxed with him. I don't think Junior's takedown defence had properly been tested before Saturday night.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I think he's proven it now though. Even though he was taken down a lot it was incredible he was able to keep popping up. It surely didn't help him though in regards to his cardio, having to keep struggling back to his feet, but it proves he does have very good takedown defence.

 

In his previous fights, Werdum was KO'd before he got chance to shoot, Carwin and Nelson tried a few which were stuffed easily and Cain tried one single leg which was stuffed. Aside from that, Gonzaga very briefly took him down and he was up in seconds. And Mir made a strong early attempt at a takedown and leg lock which failed.

 

I think what Cain brought which the others didn't was that he didn't waste time feeling sorry for himself if a takedown failed. When Cain's takedowns failed he came up top with punches, and when the takedowns worked but JDS popped up, he was catching JDS with shots as he got up. Cain was just better all around than the others. Carwin, Nelson etc were either striking or wrestling, Cain can do it all together pretty seamlessly. I think that troubled JDS.

 

I think he'll do a bit better in a third fight but I still see Cain winning. I just don't think there's much of an answer for the years of wresling experience Cain has. JDS is a quick as fuck learner but he's not catching up to that. He's good enough to stuff some shots, but he'll need to find the balance between defending takedowns and being alert on the feet because keeping your hands down to sprawl all the time leads to this..

 

 

and this...

 

 

I think he might have underestimated Cain's striking a bit to be honest. Now he knows exactly what Cain can do to him. We'll see if there's anything he can do about it. He showed good early signs though, already vowing to win the title back post-fight. He looked pissed off big time. It says a lot about Dos Santos, most fighters look deflated and ready to give up after a fight like that. His first thought is "that's not happening next time".

 

The rubber match could be massive promoted right. I think it's important to leave a bit of time though. Velasquez vs Dos Santos 3 in Mexico or a stadium in Brazil in 12-18 months time could be huge. Of course that is dependant on them both winning in the meantime.

[Egg Shen]

yeh, i still dont feel he'd faced a real sold takedown artist until he's fought Cain though. JDS's takedown defence was there for some of the fight but Cain's persistence shone through, it's exactly how Mir and Carwin should have tried to fight JDS but they didn't...to give up and attempt to trade with Junior if you fail 1 or 2 takedown's is ridiculous...having said that, Cain's persistence is a credit to his cardio.

 

Here's a question, what if Bigfoot beats Overeem? where the hell does the heavyweight division go from there? who next for Cain?

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Mir especially has never been a great takedown artist. I don't think he could have done what Cain did even if he tried. He doesn't have the cardio or wrestling it would take.

 

I still think JDS has good takedown defence though. Getting taken down by Cain doesn't mean his wrestling's bad or anything. And when Carwin and Nelson did try (which admittedly wasn't often) he had no trouble shaking them off. I said before the fight if anyone's gonna make wrestling work against JDS it's Cain and Cormier. Great wrestlers who are enough of a threat on the feet to change levels up and down and confuse him.

 

And theoretically, Carwin's a wrestler, and a fucking monster, so you'd have thought he could have made his wrestling effective. He defo attempted a couple and JDS stopped them. Also, it's overlooked that JDS has a very good jab when he uses it. He used it very well against Carwin which I'd say was a big factor in stopping Carwin from shooting. The old GSP/Koscheck 2 strategy.

 

And Carwin's probably got more one-shot KO power than Dos Santos. In theory he should have been alright trading as well. That's looked at now as a favourable match up for Dos Santos in hindsight, but style wise on paper, it really shouldn't have been.

 

Here's a question, what if Bigfoot beats Overeem? where the hell does the heavyweight division go from there? who next for Cain?

 

Werdum, if he beats Nog, would be the best bet I'd imagine. Reem should beat Bigfoot. In the unlikely event Bigfoot and Nog win though? Fuck knows

 

Speaking of Cormier, I guess he's moving down to 205 now then. That's a very interesting match up for Jones down the line in my opinion.

[Egg Shen]

i hadn't even factored in Werdum.

 

I think the Cormier decision is kinda of up in the air and until certain fights take place...if Jones beats Sonnen i think their gonna have DC drop and face Jones, they are teasing it already.

[wandshogun09]

I've just been listening to Dana on about that actually, he seems to be saying what you are saying. He hinted at Cormier possibly fighting Jones right away if Jones beats Chael.

 

I'll be honest, I'd rather Cormier have a fight or two at 205 first. He's a big guy and we don't know how much the cut will take out of him. I really think he could give Jones a test but I'd hate to see them rush him into a title shot at a new weight too soon. At least give him time to settle in at 205.

 

If Jones beats Sonnen I'd like to see him fight Gustafsson next. Cormier could fight the winner of Machida/Hendo or Rashad/Little Nog as his 205 debut. Or even Forrest Griffin. I bet they rush him into the Jones fight though.

 

Oh, and I don't think this has been posted yet...

 

 

Imagine if he'd pulled that off? That's the only thing that could have made the fight even better.

 

 

I still think Nick The Tooth softened him up. Lauzon was robbed.

[David]

Werdum, if he beats Nog, would be the best bet I'd imagine. Reem should beat Bigfoot. In the unlikely event Bigfoot and Nog win though? Fuck knows

Personally, if Nogueira beats Werdum then I'd go ahead and give him the titleshot. He would have went 3-1 since he lost to Velasquez in 2010, and whilst he certainly wouldn't be the favourite he'd be as deserving as anyone else in the division.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

If Jones beats Sonnen I'd like to see him fight Gustafsson next. Cormier could fight the winner of Machida/Hendo or Rashad/Little Nog as his 205 debut. Or even Forrest Griffin. I bet they rush him into the Jones fight though.

The idea of that makes me want to see Hendo and Rashad win their respective fights. I think Cormier vs. Rashad or Cormier vs. Hendo would be outstanding fights.

 

Here's the UFC 155 payroll. Unsurprisingly, JDS and Cain top it. But...

 

* Cain Velasquez: $200,000 (includes $100,000 win bonus)

* Junior Dos Santos: $400,000

* Jim Miller: $82,000 (includes $41,000 win bonus)

* Joe Lauzon: $27,000

* Constantinos Philippou: $36,000 (includes $18,000 win bonus)

* Tim Boetsch: $37,000

* Yushin Okami: $84,000 (includes $42,000 win bonus)

* Alan Belcher: $37,000

* Derek Brunson: $30,000 (includes $17,000 win bonus)

* Chris Leben: $51,000

* Eddie Wineland: $30,000 (includes $15,000 win bonus)

* Brad Pickett: $17,000

* Erik Perez: $20,000 (includes $10,000 win bonus)

* Bryon Bloodworth $6,000

* Jamie Varner: $24,000 (includes $12,000 win bonus)

* Melvin Guillard: $42,000

* Myles Jury: $16,000 (includes $8,000 win bonus)

* Michael Johnson $14,000

* Todd Duffee: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)

* Phil De Fries: $14,000

* Max Holloway: $24,000 (includes $12,000 win bonus)

* Leonard Garcia: $20,000

* John Moraga: $22,000 (includes $11,000 win bonus)

* Chris Cariaso: $12,000

 

What is this shit? Cain beats the shit out of JDS for five rounds, and with show and win money combined, gets HALF of what JDS got just for showing up? That's bullshit. Hopefully the undisclosed amount closes that gap, but it's a lot to begin with, isn't that the same as Anderson Silva's reported money?

[wandshogun09]

That does look harsh. The thing is it doesn't matter how one sided a fight is, what you negotiate in your contract is what you get as your base pay. For whatever reason Cain's contract is less than JDS'.

 

It is odd though. I'd have thought Cain would have been on a bit more even going into this fight as the challenger, just because he came in so highly touted and the company was always high on him. JDS must be a beast in the negotiation room, or he has a fuck of an agent.

 

No doubt, Cain will be taking away a lot more than that disclosed amount regardless. And as long as he stays champ which I think he will for a while now, he should be bumped up on his next contract renewal.

 

JDS must be fucking minted now though, if he's on that kind of money, plus bonuses, plus sponsorships from Nike and Brazilian football team Corinthians. He's rolling in it. Good on him.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

Yeah I know, the discrepancy in pay is the main thing that got me, but the circumstances of the fight really accentuated that.

 

Just looking at some of the other payouts now. I can understand guys like Leben and Guillard getting the amount they got due to their long history in the UFC, but one guy that stands out is Jim Miller. He really cleaned up this event, with $82 000 show and win, plus the $65 000 FOTN bonus, making it $147 000 total if my maths works at 8 a.m. Happy New Year indeed.

[ColinBollocks]

Don't some guys sacrifice a chunk of their base pay, as a way of getting a bigger percentage of the money the shows makes on PPV. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember this coming up when folk were moaning about fighter payouts a while back.