UFC 151: 'The Event That Never Was'

[wandshogun09]

See page 3 onwards

 

 

PPV MAIN CARD (ESPN - 3am)

Jon Jones vs Dan Henderson -UFC Light Heavyweight Title

Jake Ellenberger vs Jay Hieron

Dennis Siver vs Eddie Yagin

Dennis Hallman vs Thiago Tavares

John Lineker vs Yasuhiro Urushitani

 

FX PRELIMS (ufc.tv - 1am)

Danny Castillo vs Michael Johnson

Takeya Mizugaki vs Jeff Hougland

Tim Means vs Abel Trujillo

Henry Martinez vs Daron Cruickshank

 

FACEBOOK PRELIMS (12am)

Shane Roller vs Jacob Volkmann

Charlie Brenneman vs Kyle Noke

 

Just a few weeks away now.

 

This does look like pretty much a one fight show really. There's some good stuff on there but if one of the main eventers gets injured (Godforfuckingbid), then this card will look like an FX show which they're charging PPV price for. Still, I like some of these fights. And like we've said before it's often the cards you expect the least from which turn out to be surprisingly fun.

 

Jones vs Hendo is where it's at though, no question about it. I've said from day 1 that I think this is Jones' fight to lose. I love Hendo but I really don't see a logical argument to pick him to win this other than the old "Puncher's chance". And that's nothing to really base a prediction on is it?

 

Hendo's best shot at this is early in my opinion. The first two rounds when he's at full strength and his power is fucking ridiculous. If he can catch Jones I think he could put him out. A flush H-Bomb on the chin puts pretty much anyone out I reckon. Problem is I don't see it landing. Jones uses his reach too well and better strikers than Hendo haven't come close to tagging him with a clean shot. And Hendo's cardio has never been much cop.

 

I expect this to look a lot like Jones vs Rampage. Jones picking Hendo apart with kicks at long distance in the early rounds, then Hendo tiring and Jones putting the heat on later and finishing with a choke on the ground.

 

Jones by submission, round 3 is my pick.

 

I'd love to see Hendo pull it off though. A win over Jones at this point would be the final crowning achievement on a HOF career. RINGS tournament winner, Pride titles in 2 divisions, Pride GP winner, Strikeforce champ and then UFC champ. The latter two being in his 40s. Plus the epic with Shogun and wins over Fedor AND Jones. Fuck me. That maybe the greatest career in MMA history. If he pulls it off.

 

 

 

Can't wait for this one. Even though I'm not giving Hendo much of a chance, it's still that thought of him landing a big shot that has me interested. If Jones wipes out Hendo like he has everyone else he'll have pretty much cleared out the division in about a 2 year span. Amazing. Aside from possible challenges from Gustafsson and Teixeira (neither of who I would give much of a shot against Bones), it will be rematch city at 205.

 

Now please, God, don't let Jones or Hendo get injured. Ellenberger/Hieron, while a good fight, isn't a PPV headliner by any stretch.

[David]

I'll be rooting for Henderson here, and I believe he can win it. Jones is hittable, and there aren't many heavier hitters than Dan in the division.

 

Henderson hasn't been submitted in over four years, and has never been knocked out. This is going to be Jones biggest challenge without a doubt, and a win here, especially if he stops him, will put a stamp on his greatness at 205lbs.

 

The rest of the card looks pretty decent in my opinion, although the hardcore fans will be buying it regardless. I doubt the rest of the card will appeal to the casual viewer, so we'll see how much of a draw Bones is I guess.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Hieron back in the UFC, and Dennis Siver has always been one of my favourite fighters.

 

One good thing is that this is the last UFC fight card for three weeks. I feel the events have been non-stop recently and will be glad of a break (even if the Ultimate Fighter shows are due to start up soon!).

[jimufctna24]

I agree with your breakdown Wand.

 

I will add that early on is the best chance for Hendo also because Jones at that point will be at his least confident and his rhythm will not be in full flow. Make no mistake Hendo has nothing to lose and a lot to gain and Jones has everything to lose and not a lot to gain. If Jones wins, it is just another in a long line of legends he has beaten, if he loses it is massive with the Nike sponsorship and everything that has been put into him.

 

If Hendo loses, no big deal he is still a legit legend and Hall Of Famer, opinion will stay the same, if he wins he enhances his legacy to Anderson and Fedor levels and is in the debate for the greatest of all time. Hendo early needs just one opening, now that is a lot easier said than done, Rashad and Rampage are power punchers and they could not get a sniff, however Machida did that fight alone shows that Hendo getting a chance to land the H-Bomb is still there.

 

However, Jones proved against Machida he can face bad times in the octagon, and come back to win. Hendo needs a hail mary style punch to win, not just a opening to rock him like Machida found, MMA is very fast paced and one mistake can end a fight and with Hendo's power it is not beyond possibility, it is however very unlikely.

 

Jones has a variety of ways to win, Hendo has one. Jones sometimes does play other fighters games and tries to beat them at that, that lost him a round against Lyoto, if Jones chooses not to play Hendo's game which in this case will be to trade blows, it could be a very easyy night. Jones can either pick apart Hendo from a distance with his reach, takedown Hendo and submit him, or the easiest method of using his brutal GnP.

 

Jones has much better cardio and whilst Hendo has wrestling chops, his defensive wrestling has been questioned and I cannot see him taking down Jones either. Its Jones's fight to lose, distractions with his DUI could have effected his camp and maybe his dedication will be waning and lead to a mistake inside the octagon, it must be getting standard for Jones after all the greats he has beaten and unlike Rashad he has no personal beef with Hendo to motivate him. Even with all this though, I can see Jones coasting.

 

I think Jones will choose as Wand said to play with Hendo like he did with Rampage, until round 3 where he will submit him.

[wandshogun09]

I'll be rooting for Henderson here, and I believe he can win it. Jones is hittable, and there aren't many heavier hitters than Dan in the division.

 

I hope you're right but I can't see it. I'd say Rampage probably packs as much power as Hendo and he couldn't really lay a glove on Jones. Jones is hittable but it's gonna take a slick, unpredictable striker like Machida or someone with fast hands like Rashad to catch Jones if anyone will in my opinion. And them two have landed the most consistently on Jones so far. I just don't see Hendo having the kind of speed or movement that will bother Jones. Power's fuck all good if you don't land your punches.

 

As great as Hendo is you know what you're getting with him. He doesn't even wrestle anymore. Just stalks forward, chin down, right hand cocked, and tries to take your head off non-stop until he gasses. He literally beats the shit out of you until you drop or he can't do it anymore.

 

As fun as that is to watch I don't see it working against Jones. Maybe he can catch him early but if it goes past round 2 I really don't like his chances.

 

Henderson hasn't been submitted in over four years, and has never been knocked out. This is going to be Jones biggest challenge without a doubt, and a win here, especially if he stops him, will put a stamp on his greatness at 205lbs.

 

Yeah I wouldn't pick Jones to KO Hendo. Hendo has a granite chin and I'm not sure Bones has the kind of power to put him away. He doesn't seem like a huge puncher from what we've seen.

 

You're right that Hendo hasn't been submitted in 4 years but;

 

Rampage hadn't been submitted in 10 years until Jones got hold of him.

Shogun had never been TKO'd until he fought Jones (unless you count the Coleman arm break as a legit TKO).

Machida had never been submitted in his career....before he faced Jones.

Bader had never lost a fight....until he fought Jones.

Rashad had never lost a decision...until he fought Jones.

 

Jones just does shit like that.

 

And Hendo has been submitted 3 times in his career. Granted they were submission losses to Anderson Silva, Big Nog and Little Nog who are all more accomplished in BJJ than Jones is but I just see Hendo tiring and Jones tapping him out by the 3rd or 4th. It's either gonna be that or a Jones decision for me.

 

All I know is the later into the fight this goes, I think Hendo's chances diminish greatly. He doesn't pace himself, he's got one speed. Rounds 1 and 2 are the danger rounds for Bones imo, then after that he'll be fighting a slower, less explosive version of Hendo.

[Heartbreak Kid]

I am one of those people that hates it when fans completely write off an underdogs chances of winning as if they are some bum on the street instead of a highly dangerous trained fighter. It's a fight and anything can happen. But I think this time, I am going to have to go against my own line of thinking.

 

Henderson would have only had a H-Bombs chance of winning if Jones didn't have a 12" reach advantage on him but he does, and I can't see Henderson landing it. Jones will ragdoll him and either submit him on the ground or be the first man to TKO Henderson on the ground. Hendo doesn't have the gas tank to go 5 rounds with Jones if the H Bomb doesn't land and he will get taken down. For a former Olympian, his MMA wrestling isn't that great. I hope to God that I am wrong and that the H Bomb lands.

 

If Jones wins, then he takes over Wanderlei Silva as the GOAT at LHW IMO.

If Henderson wins, is he the GOAT?

 

[jimufctna24]

If Henderson wins, is he the GOAT?

For me it is still Anderson, but if someone says it is Hendo after beating Jones they will have a very good argument.

[ajmcstyles]

I'll be rooting for Henderson, he's had 10 months to practise closing the distance, improving his cardio. Working on that H-Bomb. Hopefully working on his kicks, working off his back, slipping. To be truthful he's got no excuses NOT to beat Jones.

 

He's had a whole 10 months to prepare for this fight, I hope he's put in the time at the gym for this. If he does win he will be considered as one of the Greatest of all time.

 

I am hoping this is one of Jones's last fights at light Heavyweight. The only other fighter I can see Jones fighting against is The Sweed.

[wandshogun09]

Haha I love that Hendo pic.

 

I am one of those people that hates it when fans completely write off an underdogs chances of winning as if they are some bum on the street instead of a highly dangerous trained fighter. It's a fight and anything can happen. But I think this time, I am going to have to go against my own line of thinking.

 

Yeah I'm in no way trying to diminish Hendo and how awesome he is. As I've said in the first post, and many times on here he's an all time great in the sport, a future HOFer and one of my favourite fighters.

 

But all the advantages (bar that one punch) are with Jones in this one. He's taller, has a shitload more reach, he's almost half Hendo's age, more unpredictable, uses his reach well, paces himself well and he's getting better all the time. Hendo's pretty much set as far as his skillset goes imo. He's gonna fight the way he always does.

 

To talk a bit about the undercard;

 

I'm actually really looking forward to these...

 

Siver vs Yagin.

I'm picking Siver, he's the better striker for sure and he looked really good for his debut at 145 against Diego Nunes. But Yagin impressed me against Hominick. Say what you want about Hominick not being the same since Shawn Tompkins' death but he was tagging Yagin a lot and Yagin proved himself a tough bastard and nearly put Hominick away on a few occasions. He's not what you'd call a technical fighter but he's got some big power in his hands, he's aggressive and has a good chin. Could be a great fight.

 

Ellenberger vs Hieron

As David said, Hieron's UFC return is a long time coming and I'm glad to see him back. There was talk a couple of times of him coming back when he got into contract disputes and was unhappy with Strikeforce and stuff but it never happened. Most people remember him for his TKO loss to GSP in his last UFC stint but he's gone an impressive 19-4 since that fight.

 

This is actually a rematch as well. Hieron and Ellenberger fought in the IFL in 2006 and Hieron won a unanimous decision.

 

 

I haven't actually seen the fight but Ellenberger was 12-0 at the time and Hieron handed him his first loss. Makes this fight a little more interesting, especially with Ellenberger coming off the loss to Kampmann.

 

That's another interesting twist to this fight. Hieron has trained with Kampmann for years at Xtreme Couture and you'll often see him cornering Kampmann for most of his UFC fights. Kampmann has just beat Ellenberger so no doubt he'll be useful in getting Hieron ready for this.

 

It's an intriguing fight style wise as well. Both have good wrestling backgrounds, Ellenberger has big power in his strikes but I've got doubts on his stamina after seeing him fade late against Diego Sanchez and then get stopped by Kampmann after a strong start. Hieron's got the kind of style that will sap your energy so that might be something to keep an eye on.

[wandshogun09]

I'll be rooting for Henderson, he's had 10 months to practise closing the distance, improving his cardio. Working on that H-Bomb. Hopefully working on his kicks, working off his back, slipping. To be truthful he's got no excuses NOT to beat Jones.

 

Eh? What do you mean? Jones has wrecked everyone. He's left a pile of bodies of some of the best LHW's in the sport in his wake. If Hendo loses there's no shame in it and I'd say most are probably expecting him to lose even if they're rooting for him. Jones being half his age, much taller, longer reach, probably more well rounded etc etc are all good excuses.

 

As said a few times already in this thread, Hendo really only has one way to win this. His chances aren't great.

 

He's had a whole 10 months to prepare for this fight, I hope he's put in the time at the gym for this. If he does win he will be considered as one of the Greatest of all time.

 

I'd say win or lose against Jones, Hendo is already one of the greatest of all time. Certainly at 205 but really, at any weight. We're talking about a man who...

 

*Won an early UFC tournament (beating respected fighters of that era Newton and Goes).

*Won the RINGS King Of Kings tournament (beating a young Yvel, a prime Babalu and the legend that is Big Nog).

*Won the Pride WW (183lbs) Grand Prix, becoming the first (and only) Pride WW champion.

*KO'd Wanderlei Silva ending his 6 year title reign and becoming the first (and only) 2 weight champion in Pride history.

*In relation to the two above he still held the Pride MW (205lbs) and WW (183lbs) titles when Pride died. He's probably still got them belts on his fireplace in Temecula right now next to his false teeth in a glass of water. Unless Rampage got the belt after their fight?

*Brutally KO'd Michael Bisping in one of the most memorable KO's in MMA history.

*Won the Strikeforce LHW title at 40.

*Fought at Heavyweight and KO'd Fedor Emelianenko in one round. Fedor had never been knocked out before (Bigfoot fight was a corner stoppage).

*Had one of the greatest fights in UFC/MMA history with Shogun and won.

 

All that plus wins over guys like Rich Franklin, Vitor Belfort and Renzo Gracie. I'd say Hendo's place in MMA history is secure. He is without question one of the best of all time. A win over Jones would just be the Crufts rosette on the scruffy chinned, battered eared, toothless old dog that is Dan Henderson's career. The man is a legend whatever happens against Jones.

 

And that's just his MMA achievements I've listed there. That's not even taking into account all his wrestling accolades.

[jimufctna24]

The one thing Hendo has not done is dominate a weightclass for a extended amount of time, I do not think he has ever really been regarded as number 1 in any weight class either.

 

He lost in his career at 205lbs to Arona, Lil Nog and Wanderlai. Wanderlai was considered better than him at the time. He was almost considered the best middleweight, but a loss to Misaki took the wind out of his sails there, the emergance of Anderson who later beat him put to bed any chance of him dominating or being regarded as number 1 there as well.

 

Even in 2007 when he knocked at Wanderlai, Rampage was considered better and later beat him. Moving back to and forth to 185lbs and 205lbs there has always been someone just that little bit better, and he has lost just enough times to not be considered dominant like Fedor, GSP and Anderson have.

 

He is one of the best ever though, if I had to make a list he would make my top 10 easily just not top, but he would not be top of any all time weightclass lists either.

[CurryAngel]

Surely the fact Hendo has been consistently top 5 of 2 divisions for the best part of 15 years is enough to elevate him to the 'Greatest of all time' argument regardless of his fight against Jones? I can't think of anyone who has been so consistent for so long. Anderson went up a level or 2 in 2006 so thats 6 years, GSP has been on top for only 4 years (and 1 of them has been an injury), Fedor had 8 years as the pinnacle of the sport and Henderson has been fighting top level guys all that time.

 

When you fight at the highest standard like Hendo has, you're bound to have a few defeats on your record but he's never been beaten badly. The only fight he wasn't competitive in was the Little Nog fight (and I think he was injured going in??) Anyway, win or lose Henderson will still be number 3 on my all time list.

 

As for the fight, I unfortunately see Jones winning easily as usual. I can even see him being the man to stop Hendo with strikes which would be a shame.

 

Can't wait for it though. Come on Hendo!!

[jimufctna24]

Well like I said dominating a division for a extended time is the only thing not on his resume. The consistency and longevity does put him into the argument, but it is really what you rate more.

 

I personally will rate GSP and Anderson over him as of right now due to their domination over the years, they have fought the best in their weightclass and have not lost (other than GSP with Serra) on their best day I think Anderson is the better fighter also. Both of these two have fought the same standard as Hendo come out of it with very few losses for a extended amount of time.

 

I said earlier the Jones fight could enhance his legacy with a win, but he does not do him harm with a defeat. My point about him never being number 1, would be put to rest in the unlikely event he knocks out Jones.

[wandshogun09]

All very good points. But...

 

Although he didn't exactly dominate any weightclass, I believe he fought maybe a higher level of opposition than anyone in MMA ever has to date. Who else has a more impressive list of opponents?

 

Fedor

Anderson Silva

Big Nog (twice)

Wanderlei (twice)

Shogun

Rampage

Belfort

Franklin

Little Nog

Arona

Bisping

Shields

Carlos Newton

Babalu (twice)

Bustamante (twice)

Ninja

Renzo

 

...and now Jones. He's fought pretty much every one at his weight bar Liddell. And he was always changing weightclass. He fought tough fighters at the weights above and below his usual weight.

 

So while I agree he didn't ever dominate a division like Chuck Liddell, I'd argue he could have. What I mean by that is, if you could somehow go back and swap Liddell and Hendo's opponents I'd say Hendo would beat everyone Chuck beat in his heyday from 2004-2007. I don't see Randy, Vernon White, Tito, Horn beating Hendo. Maybe Tito has a bit of a shot with his wrestling but I'd pick Hendo to stop him. By 2004/05 Tito wasn't as effective.

 

I strongly believe that Pride's 205lb division was much stronger than the UFC's in the mid 2000s. By the time them guys came over to the UFC a lot of them were spent or injured and their best years were behind them. But when Hendo lost to the likes of Little Nog, Arona and Wand they were on top of their games.

 

Also, Hendo went straight into MMA at a high level. His fourth MMA fight was his UFC 17 tournament win against Carlos Newton. In his first 10 fights alone he fought Wand, Big Nog, Babalu, Yvel, Newton and Goes.

 

Records are a bit misleading in MMA. In Boxing records mean more imo because guys take the traditional route of going through a building phase in their first 10, 15, sometimes 20 fights. In MMA some guys pad their records, some guys are swimming with the sharks from their 2nd or 3rd fight. With a 20-0 record in MMA you could be a killer or untested. Guys take different routes. So in Hendo's case although he had his share of setbacks and never really strung together a long streak of wins, he was fighting the best of the best consistently throughout his career.

 

I think it was Brad Pickett who said once regarding records in MMA, "Records are for DJ's". He's right.

[jimufctna24]

Hendo may have faced the most names in his weight class but lets compare to GSP.

 

Fitch

Koscheck

Hughes

B.J

Shields

Alves

Sherk

Karo

Mayhem

Trigg

Serra

Hardy

 

I agree Hendo does have more names he has faced, but GSP has in the past 7 years beat all the above in their primes and only lost once in the meantime in a fight he avenged a year later in such a fashion most considered the first fight a fluke , included in that list is the cream of the crop of the past 7 years at his weightclass.

 

The key word here is dominant, the list above GSP beat most handily and some of the best twice. Yes he does have lack of finishes, but unlike Hendo he did not stumble at times and no one came along as of now who was better than him. I think GSP has had almost as hard a schedule as Hendo and not faltered as much

 

This is no big knock on Hendo, just trying to give my reasoning why I rate GSP and Anderson above him in the GOAT debate.

[Heartbreak Kid]

Fedor

Anderson Silva

Big Nog (twice)

Wanderlei (twice)

Shogun

Rampage

Belfort

Franklin

Little Nog

Arona

Bisping

Shields

Carlos Newton

Babalu (twice)

Bustamante (twice)

Ninja

Renzo

 

 

The best resume in the business bar none. Right now, the GOAT debate is between Anderson and Fedor, with GSP and Hendo on the fringes, with Jones soon to surpass all those guys unless Hendo can throw a spanner in the works.

 

Personally, I have Fedor no.1 and Anderson at no.2. . Hendo has beaten better competition than both, but has more losses on his record. Hendo beat Fedor, but lost to Anderson. Hendo smashed Chonnan in 1 round while Anderson was dominated and submitted by Chonnan. Hendo has also won more accolades than both men but never dominated his division.

 

It's tough, but a win over Jones would push Hendo above both IMO.