David Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: I don't know about 'easily' but I think that the people clamouring for this fight might end up disappointed. I can see it being a stand-off with both fighters wanting to counter-strike. Hope not obvs but it's a huge win for Till & it'd be a big loss for Wonderboy. These circumstances often lead to both fighters being hesitant & not wanting to make a silly mistake, which can end up in a bit of a stalemate. I mean easily in the sense that there's a lot of people who think Till will beat Wonderboy in the same way he did Cowboy. In all honesty I can see Wonderboy outstriking Till in this fight, winning a late stoppage or decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_mole Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Till is still young, they talked about this on MMA Beat about bringing him up slower, as he has great charisma, Leon Edwards (it didn't harm Conor fighting Brandao in Ireland, then he fought Dustin Poirier) is who I would probably go with both top 15, Till should win but outside the Cowboy fight, they both have pretty similar recordsbor maybe Gunner but he just lost. They should avoid Usman, especially in Liverpool. They should try and build Till up given his potential and Usman can build himself up, given the right fights. Masdival can't fight until June, so he said, maybe he can fight Usman. Some combination of Wonderboy, Maia or Lawler, none are getting title shots, so they need to drop before guys move up. Usman, Ponzinibbio and Till should be the guys they should try and build for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 The UFC haven't done the best of jobs selecting the right fights for up and comers. We all know the fight game doesn't care if Dana White sees star potential in you, but giving Yair Rodríguez a fight with Frankie Edgar, for example, was proper ropey. There are a couple more examples, but that's one that sticks out. Yair Rodríguez clearly needed another year of building and hype to even contemplate someone like Frankie Edgar. They need to be mindful of how they went about building Conor. Aye, fair enough, McGregor proved himself to be an exceptional fighter, but they were very careful to give him steady tests that have certain styles that may help McGregor. Till can be huge for them. Particularly with Bisping retiring soon. Wonderboy is a huge gamble because Wonderboy is truly a great fighter. I just don't know if you want to be taking that sort of risk, right now, just as Till is starting to build momentum. That's also me being mindful of where Till is in his development, before folk get arsey about "I don't care about the money/promotion" etc. Rushing fighters into the deep waters because they're getting some buzz isn't always the best move for the fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 I haven't seen anyone saying Till smashes Wonderboy like he did Cerrone. Then again, I'm only really reading on here and the news sites like Junkie etc for MMA lately, and I never scroll down to the comments. I do think there's been a bit of an element of people overhyping him coming off the Cerrone win but that goes with the territory when you've got a guy like Till who talks himself up a storm. You'll always get some blindly buying into the hype. He's clearly a very good fighter though with bags of potential so I'm good with it. We'll soon find out if he's being overhyped or not as he steps up through the levels. He's in a pretty deep division so we'll get the answers soon regardless. I get Dead Mike's point though as well. A fight like Till vs Wonderboy isn't one I'm expecting to be a war. I don't really go into Wonderboy fights expecting that type of thing. He's a puzzle. A bit like Machida years ago. That's where my interest is in him fighting Till because I want to see how Till's striking matches up to Wonderboy's style. It's probably not going to be the type of fight you'd rewatch much, like a Robbie Lawler fight or something, but on the night it'll be a fascinating watch I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 47 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said: We all know the fight game doesn't care if Dana White sees star potential in you, but giving Yair Rodríguez a fight with Frankie Edgar, for example, was proper ropey. There are a couple more examples, but that's one that sticks out. Yair Rodríguez clearly needed another year of building and hype to even contemplate someone like Frankie Edgar. That seems so obvious now but it wasn't the tone everyone had at the time. Nearly everywhere I read the majority seemed to be expecting Yair to walk through Frankie and that Frankie was old and beaten down and the younger Yair was all set to crush him. It was a massive, colossal jump for Yair though. Trying not to be all 'I told you so' but I did say going into that fight that Yair was going from a competitive decision over Bruce Leroy and battering the shell of BJ Penn to fighting Frankie Edgar. There was a gulf between the levels of opponent he was changing to. Contrast that to Brian Ortega beating Frankie the other week. I was picking Frankie but I was much more open to the possibility of Ortega beating him than I ever was Yair. 1) because I rate Ortega more anyway and 2) because he'd come up the right way, gradually upping his opposition from the Diego Brandaos to the Clay Guidas then he passed the Cub Swanson test. Finishing all of them along the way. Like I say, I still thought Frankie would old man him but Ortega at the very least seemed 'ready' for the test. I never got that feeling with Yair Rodriguez. And we haven't seen Yair since that beating. It's been nearly a year Ngannou is another example. I can't blame them pulling the trigger. He'd just taken Overeem's head off and the heavyweight division isn't exactly heaving with fresh contenders. Totally got why they threw him in there. In hindsight though, he was far from up to it. He might never be, truth be told. Stipe's just a different breed. But big Francis had neither the experience, the skills or stamina to cope with a fight like that at this stage in his career. I just think it all happened too fast for him. His awesome look and KO power actually weren't such a good thing for him because it put him in a position where he was rushed to run when he was still just mastering walking as far as MMA was concerned. Regardless, you raised some good points there. Especially the bit about Bisping's approaching retirement. If they handle Till right he could be the next face of UK MMA easy. If he's fed to the wolves too soon he might end up as just another also ran. Some fighters never recover from that. Japan in the Pride days was littered with good fighters who never got anywhere because they were sacrificed as Cro Cop or Wandy or whoever fodder in their first 5 fights and it fucked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 In fairness, I think the trajectory between the Yair and Ngannou is slightly different, in terms of their ability in their division and trajectory. Yair beat a past it BJ Penn prior to the Frankie fight, which raised his profile but it was no clear proof he was ready for an elite fighter - anyone that said he was ready for that level after that was a bit silly. Where as Frances just battered a top 3 HW Ninjareem with one of the most iconic KO's in history, in quick time too, and Arlovksi prior to that too - who, while at a certain level, can still be competitive in his division, unlike BJ. Fair enough Ngannou was exposed against Stipe, but he clearly earned his title shot. I don't think the UFC had much option at that point, in truth. Ngannou is still one the scariest men in the world, despite what Schaub says. In there against maybe the best HW ever too. The jump the UFC forced Yair to make was well steep, by comparison. Anyway, it's always a gamble on when to push the talent and how hard. I mean, Jon Jones was champion quicker than a morning dump takes (although they way things have ended up for him, there is a point of too much too soon, I guess). There is no clear formula to it, fighter-to-fighter, but they must be careful not to wreck potential, good potential at that. It's why I bring up Conor, because they did such a tremendous job slowly but surely building him with gradual steps up the rankings, even if Denis Siver to Aldo is a leap, they lucked into that Mendes fight before he got to Aldo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 Actually, that is pretty mad when you think. McGregor originally set to go from Siver to Aldo at UFC 189. Still, he'd beaten Poirier and Holloway prior to that as well so there was a sense that he was being tested (just not in the wrestling at that point). Poirier and Holloway weren't what they are now when Conor beat them, of course, but they were still legitimate tests for him at that time. Even Jones, his rise seemed mega quick but he debuted in the UFC in 2008 and didn't win the title until 2011. And early in his UFC run he'd gone to decisions with Andre Gusmao and a Stephan Bonnar who'd seen better days. He looked impressive in the fights but it was clear back then that he still nedded work. He improved at such a fast rate though. By the time he was squashing Vera and Vlad I was pretty convinced he was going to be in the title mix before long. Then he took Bader's O. Then he took Shogun out and that was that. The reign was underway. Such a fucking waste when you look back on his career and how insanely good he is. Everything seemed in place for him to go down as the best ever but he's got a fetish for self destruction and has squandered his potential repeatedly in recent years. Imagine where his legacy could be now had he stayed active and made the right choices? Maybe he'd have gone 2-0 over Gustafsson. Maybe a run at heavyweight? That Brock fight could've been in the pipeline. Now what's he doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Fighters have overcome ambitious matchmaking in the past. In some ways, ambitious matchmaking can help improve fighters in the long run. Some would argue that GSP wasn't ready for Hughes when he fought him in late 2004. They were partially proven correct when Hughes took advantage of GSP's lack of experience and armbarred him late in the first round. However, GSP was giving Hughes all sorts of issues before then. That first round served as a preview of GSP's dominance at 170lbs. It was the same with Penn when he first fought Pulver. Penn entered that fight was a relative novice. If anything, that loss should have made Penn stronger. He should have realised that he had the ability, but he needed to work on other areas of his game. The problem comes when a prospect gets trounced. The aforementioned Rodríguez vs Edgar fight is probably the best recent example. That one was a bit grim. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many more examples in MMA. Maybe someone can refresh my memory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 Yeah, Brock Lesnar is another example of a fighter overcoming that kind of matchmaking. In his first 4 fights he was faced with Frank Mir, Heath Herring and Randy Couture for fuck's sake. Of course, with his name and for the money he was on he wasn't going to get any bums. But still, you look at the schoolboy error he made in losing to Mir the first time and compare his performance in the rematch around 18 months later, his improvements were evident. Like we've said before, had he started at the beginners level and taken the time to tighten his all-round game up, who knows what kind of monster we'd have had on our hands? But that wasn't to be. As for your last paragraph there Jim, I'm sure there are a few examples but nobody obvious is springing to mind. Actually, Max Holloway was fed to Poirier in his UFC debut on short notice. But that all seems to have turned out OK for the lad. The guys I was thinking of were japanese journeymen from the Pride days. Guys like Daijiro Matsui, Akira Shoji, Shungo Oyama and Kazuhiro Nakamura. They were never really considered 'prospects' as we know them because they weren't really given the chance. They're the guys now who people call 'cans' when trying to discredit a Wanderlei or whoever's record but if you watched them fight they were actually decent for the time. They were just used as cannon fodder for the stars right off the bat. They never had a chance. And then by the time they'd gain experience they'd had the shit beat out of them a bunch and had losing records. No wonder the Japanese scene died off. There were a few reasons obviously but it can't have helped that every time they had a young new Japanese fighter coming through who might go on to be something they'd book him with Fedor or Cro Cop or Hendo or Wandy or Rampage or young Shogun. They killed them all off right out the gate. They treated Sakuraba the same as well. Immediately threw him at the Gracies, Belfort, Newton etc. He was the exception to the rule though and kept beating everyone they gave him. For a while anyway until he started losing and then they just kept wheeling him out to get his brains jellified by Melvin Manhoef and Marius Zaromskis and every other killer they shipped over. And the Japanese refs just stood around itching their bollocks while the poor get got his face smashed in. I haven't even looked it up for confirmation but I heard Frankie Edgar say on the MMA Hour a few weeks back that Sakuraba is fighting Renzo again soon in MMA. In 2018. Fuck me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 Paige Van Zant v Michelle Waterson? I understand their is the need to push PVZ because she's a decent celebrity, but they've exposed her a lot to a level she's clearly not ready for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 Paige got fucked up even worse by Rose Namajunas before that. Rose proper battered her into oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said: As for your last paragraph there Jim, I'm sure there are a few examples but nobody obvious is springing to mind. Actually, Max Holloway was fed to Poirier in his UFC debut on short notice. But that all seems to have turned out OK for the lad. The guys I was thinking of were japanese journeymen from the Pride days. Guys like Daijiro Matsui, Akira Shoji, Shungo Oyama and Kazuhiro Nakamura. They were never really considered 'prospects' as we know them because they weren't really given the chance. They're the guys now who people call 'cans' when trying to discredit a Wanderlei or whoever's record but if you watched them fight they were actually decent for the time. They were just used as cannon fodder for the stars right off the bat. They never had a chance. And then by the time they'd gain experience they'd had the shit beat out of them a bunch and had losing records. No wonder the Japanese scene died off. There were a few reasons obviously but it can't have helped that every time they had a young new Japanese fighter coming through who might go on to be something they'd book him with Fedor or Cro Cop or Hendo or Wandy or Rampage or young Shogun. They killed them all off right out the gate. Aye, good point. Breen posted on Twitter last week that Yoshida would have been a beast in the UFC's Welterweight division. Instead, he was fighting the likes of Wanderlei, Hunt and Cro Cop. Good example from Colin as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 If he meant Hidehiko Yoshida, he fought Royce Gracie to a stand-still, or a lie-still to be more exact. I know he beat him, but those matches had almost nothing in them, difference-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 23, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted March 23, 2018 I'm not so sure how Yoshida would've done in the UFC. You've got to consider that his Gi was a massive part of his game. He didn't seem to really adapt his Judo to MMA without the Gi like a Ronda Rousey or Karo Parisyan did. He loved those chokes where you grab the sleeves of the Gi and stuff as well. The Gi was a huge weapon in his arsenal and it enhanced the effectiveness of his Judo. Without it I'm not sure how he'd have done. Especially in the UFC when you add in going from the ring to the cage. Yoshida vs Hughes in around 2003 or 2004 could've been cool to see though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Carbomb said: If he meant Hidehiko Yoshida, he fought Royce Gracie to a stand-still, or a lie-still to be more exact. I know he beat him, but those matches had almost nothing in them, difference-wise. Funnily enough, Breen brought up the MMA rematch between those two. If it wasn't for the Gracie's insistence on there being no judges, he would have won the rematch fair and square. Although, he did land a succession of low blows on Yoshida during the fight. I think evidence of Yoshida's ability was evident in other fights. Most notably, his losing efforts against Wanderlei, his win over Tamura, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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