Paid Members Your Fight Site Posted June 27, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 This was kinda the point of me posting. After all, surely the same is true for gymnastics judges. They have particular criteria that they must mark to, but how these things are performed are marked according to a particular point of view. So I was wondering what people would think on this if wrestling were to be marked in a similar fashion. After all, if you're keeping it all the same (being a work, predetermined story lines and outcomes etc) then it has to, at least in my book, become an aesthetics competition. Not really. Surely gymnastics, you're judged on the technique? There's little room for personal flair like there is in professional wrestling; in gymnastic you perform a technique and your judged on you're execution of that technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshC Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Somebody asked me once why isn't there a manual for professional wrestlers. Kind of made me want to cry. Â Do A, B and C, and audience Z will react as follows. The sheer notion rips the emotion out of a business dependent on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmy008 Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 This was kinda the point of me posting. After all, surely the same is true for gymnastics judges. They have particular criteria that they must mark to, but how these things are performed are marked according to a particular point of view. So I was wondering what people would think on this if wrestling were to be marked in a similar fashion. After all, if you're keeping it all the same (being a work, predetermined story lines and outcomes etc) then it has to, at least in my book, become an aesthetics competition. Not really. Surely gymnastics, you're judged on the technique? There's little room for personal flair like there is in professional wrestling; in gymnastic you perform a technique and your judged on you're execution of that technique. Â There's always artistic interpretation, particularly with the women's gymnastics. Just because it is not as wide in it's latitude as wrestling's would need to be doesn't take away from the fact that they are marked, in the floor competition at least, for how they interpret the music through their moves. The same can be seen in the way that wrestlers tell the story of their match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 That Alex Shane thing was a gimmick for the King of Europe Cup. IIRC he wanted fans in attendance to put some money in a pot to vote for match of the night, then the winners would split the takings. People rightly pointed out at the time that this is a proper kayfabe-skewer, because suddenly (in imagine-it's-real-land) the incentive is to have an enjoyable-for-the-fans match as much as it is to win the match. Annoyed me quite a lot at the time, but looking back, it was just another overthought Alex Shane shoot-work. Â UFC manage to have fight of the night bonus's without skewering kayfabe overly do they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 What if football results were pre-determined and scored on aesthetics as well? That would be great, wouldn't it? Â This thread is really fucking stupid. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Up Chuck Posted June 29, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted June 29, 2012 That Alex Shane thing was a gimmick for the King of Europe Cup. IIRC he wanted fans in attendance to put some money in a pot to vote for match of the night, then the winners would split the takings. People rightly pointed out at the time that this is a proper kayfabe-skewer, because suddenly (in imagine-it's-real-land) the incentive is to have an enjoyable-for-the-fans match as much as it is to win the match. Annoyed me quite a lot at the time, but looking back, it was just another overthought Alex Shane shoot-work. Â UFC manage to have fight of the night bonus's without skewering kayfabe overly do they not? Â UFC don't have kayfabe to skewer, and in the context of an Alex Shane-promoted indy show it would've been horrible smarky legit respect bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Right, so real fighting having fight of the nights is fine, but fake fights doing it (just like their real equivalent) is smarky bollocks? Think that's kinda bullshit, personally, but there ya go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Right, so real fighting having fight of the nights is fine, but fake fights doing it (just like their real equivalent) is smarky bollocks? Yes. For one thing, in a preliminary fight, you don't get told "no knockouts lads, save something for the main eventers." A wrestling show is (or should be) choreographed and regimented a lot more precisely than a real fight. Evan Bourne vs Dolph Ziggler in a two-minute match is at a severe disadvantage compared to an Undertaker vs John Cena half-hour match, to a much greater degree than when UFC fights have longer/more rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Come on, matches below the main event have outshone the main event on countless occasions, in wrestling and ufc. The main event's always got an advantage (if booked right) in both, to suggest fight of the nights can't work in wrestling, when it's something regularly discussed by wrestling fans (or mma fans) is ever so silly. I've been at mma events with amateur matches (ie non strikes to the face, at all) winning fight of the night above full pro fights later on. You can't say they weren't at a massive disadvantage in the same way as lower fights on wrestling cards. Plus things like the kind of europe are booked for each match to be very impressive, even if it does build up to the main event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 On some shitty little leisure centre show, it's irrelevant anyway. You can have wrestlers control each other with joysticks and stop halfway through a match to do Thriller dances, and it doesn't matter because nothing on those shows ever matters. But in proper wrestling, it'd never work... What's the point of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Come on, matches below the main event have outshone the main event on countless occasions, in wrestling and ufc. The main event's always got an advantage (if booked right) in both, to suggest fight of the nights can't work in wrestling, when it's something regularly discussed by wrestling fans (or mma fans) is ever so silly. I've been at mma events with amateur matches (ie non strikes to the face, at all) winning fight of the night above full pro fights later on. You can't say they weren't at a massive disadvantage in the same way as lower fights on wrestling cards. Plus things like the kind of europe are booked for each match to be very impressive, even if it does build up to the main event. Â You know you have a point. Well, you almost have a point. Well, you don't at all actually, a wrestling show with a prize for the best match is nothing like a prize for a best fight on a real fighting card. You know, what with wrestling being about selling a completely different type of drama to the one offered by MMA. Â I mean real men who are comfortable with their masculinities know that wrestling's actually closer to dancing than MMA. Just like heterosexuals are more likely to watch somewhere with loads of scantily clad women getting into sexual positions than a show where men are stripped to their waste, hugging each other against a mesh fence and trying to have a pash. A lot of ballroom dancers are about telling stories, we all know that the rumba is a love story, but they're also marked technically. Strictly Come Dancing's the easy example to use here because it's close to wrestling for a multitude of reasons, it's camp, Bruce Forsyth is holding all the younger talent down while doing broadways and making all the female dancers taking ride on a Pleasure Beach rollercoaster for Brucie Bonuses, the analysts spend more time putting themselves over than the actual dances, everyone's wearing skin tight clothes, Russell Grant was a complete spot monkey and didn't even sell being shot out of a canon, and there's an underlying sense of racism and homophobia. More importantly it seems that the public and often the judges can be more taken away by the story than the technique, but technique is still considered. Â Come on, where's the usual comments? "Ballroom dancing's gay!1111111111" "It's all fake!111111" "SCD is shit, DOI is real dancing!!!!11111" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted June 30, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2012 Right, so real fighting having fight of the nights is fine, but fake fights doing it (just like their real equivalent) is smarky bollocks? Think that's kinda bullshit, personally, but there ya go. Â Are you thick? Well I know you are so I won't ask again, but if you were to do it in pro wrestling it would turn into people trying to get their shit in or do silly things and in that time ruin it for everyone. Â Who's the better wrestler? Arn Anderson or Jack Evans? I know who's better, and I also know who'd win the prize. And that's why it's fucking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leary of Doom Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 maybe I'm not getting the point of this thread?! Â Do you mean rewarding the wrestlers who have the best matches and connect with the crowd by putting titles on them? Â Because doesn't most wrestling work like that anyway? Â Otherwise, if it's saying which match is the best, isn't that what show reviews and internet forums are for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 maybe I'm not getting the point of this thread?! Do you mean rewarding the wrestlers who have the best matches and connect with the crowd by putting titles on them?  Because doesn't most wrestling work like that anyway?  Otherwise, if it's saying which match is the best, isn't that what show reviews and internet forums are for?  His suggestion is turning that last line into the actual way wrestling is judged, turning it into a Britain's Got Talent type gameshow. Like if the last ten minutes of an episode of Eastenders or Mad Men has all the actors stand in front of some judges who rate their performance in the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatulent Dad Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Pinfall, submission, knockout or match stipulation. None of those achieved = a draw. Anything else would not be professional wrestling, simply a bastardized version / figment of someone's imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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