Paid Members JohnnyChimpo Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Remember when Mike Castle was trying to say that the Saw movies were some fantastically scripted masterpiece, with a really intelligent story arc encompassing the entire series? DEF is starting to really remind me of Mike Castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm not suggesting at any point suggesting Friday the 13th invented these conventions I'm suggesting it popularized them. In the same way I believe Halloweens conventions were take from previous influences. Â Halloween was a pioneer, it had certain influences (as everything within the arts does) but then forged its own path and created a bunch of stuff which was a positive influence on the genre. Â Friday 13th came two years after Halloween, I don't even think Paramount studio would have the bottle to suggest that it wasn't a franchising opportunity founded on the creativity of Halloween, specifically, and its fore-bearers. Â The special effects and the kills in F13 are certainly not unique to it but it was the first film to hit US pop culture they were then the template for many future Slashers. Â It wasn't the first film to hit US pop culture. Texas Chainsaw Massacre grossed something like 35 Million Dollars in the US. It was released independently on limited release and was so popular it was rereleased in mainstream cinema's. Â As has been mentioned the backwoods environment. Daz sites that it as negative which which is nonsense of the highest order. If isolation wasn't in Horror then the world would be a far worse place. Â Friday The 13th was rubbish, but the concept itself wasn't bad. It's influence was fucking negative, though, because horror is now synonymous with stupid, brainless American teenagers getting slaughtered by a lake. It's shit, and has drowned the genre thanks to mainstream studios chasing a buck by rehashing a concept. Have some studios done okay things with the concept? ...maybe. Would the genre be all the better for it fucking off? ...certainly. As I said earlier, it circumvents the creative process and is to concepts what deux ex machina's are to endings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Is this whole fucking forum just a competition, with the winners the ones to derail the stupidest thread with the most pointless arguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DEF Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 How have I miss quoted you? What are these Horror tropes Halloween apparently invented?  In my initial post I said that whilst Halloween owes certain things to TCM/BC it invented a raft of horror tropes, whereas Halloween didn't to the same degree (or with the same positivity). You then replied saying i'd said 'Halloween didn't invent conventions'. It did. But it wasn't without certain influences. Nothing in the arts can exist without some influence but Halloween innovated, whilst Friday 13th capitalised on Halloween's success. Halloween is Scream and Friday the 13th is I Know What You Did Last Summer.  Because I'm of limited time, i'll do this instead;  Carpenter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Is this whole fucking forum just a competition, with the winners the ones to derail the stupidest thread with the most pointless arguments? Â No. That's a ridiculous suggestion and I defy you to back it up over a long series of posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DEF Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Remember when Mike Castle was trying to say that the Saw movies were some fantastically scripted masterpiece, with a really intelligent story arc encompassing the entire series? DEF is starting to really remind me of Mike Castle. Â Ha ha maybe, I'm quite passionate about Slasher movies in general. Even the bad ones. I just don't think Friday the 13th is one of the bad ones. Â It wasn't the first film to hit US pop culture. Texas Chainsaw Massacre grossed something like 35 Million Dollars in the US. It was released independently on limited release and was so popular it was rereleased in mainstream cinema's. Â Sorry should have been clearer. I meant the style of kill and graphic special effects. Which TCM does not have and F13 introduced that style of Slasher kill to pop culture. Again it didn't invent it It just popularised it. Â Is this whole fucking forum just a competition, with the winners the ones to derail the stupidest thread with the most pointless arguments? Â My bad I thought we were having a discussion. Its not dick waving its talking about some films I happen to love. I'm happy to leave it at 'I disagree' if people would prefer us not to talk about it. Seems odd though. Â IFriday The 13th was rubbish, but the concept itself wasn't bad. It's influence was fucking negative, though, because horror is now synonymous with stupid, brainless American teenagers getting slaughtered by a lake. It's shit, and has drowned the genre thanks to mainstream studios chasing a buck by rehashing a concept. Have some studios done okay things with the concept? ...maybe. Would the genre be all the better for it fucking off? ...certainly. As I said earlier, it circumvents the creative process and is to concepts what deux ex machina's are to endings. Â I dissagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Is this whole fucking forum just a competition, with the winners the ones to derail the stupidest thread with the most pointless arguments? Â My bad I thought we were having a discussion. Its not dick waving its talking about some films I happen to love. I'm happy to leave it at 'I disagree' if people would prefer us not to talk about it. Seems odd though. Â As long as you see that it's your bad, then there is no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm with Def. We're discussing the merits and influence of 2 horror films in a thread about horror films. This forum would be shit if everyone gave an opinion and then agreed to disagree.. Â F13 is still shit, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 I guess you're right - I mean, you're definitely right about F13 being shite, those movies only got any good when they realized just how shit they were. I think it's just the redundancy of the argument that makes it pointless... Halloween didn't introduce too much to the genre, and it is kind of ridiculous to say that F13 is a glossy, big studio rendering of some new conventions. Fact is, Halloween is directed by a class act, whilst the first F13 movie is put together by a hack with his finger on the pulse - Carpenter is on the level of Wes Craven, except with more polish and less grittiness, whilst Sean Cunningham is, let's be honest, a producer who has been behind the camera. Halloween is not some crusading indy pic, it's something that could easily have been a major studio movie, and was cribbing from earlier indy works and foreign movies - Carpenter is just a better director than Kent Bateman, Larry Brown, or H.G. Lewis, and more acceptable to the mainstream than Italy's Giallo kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Discussing slashers sounds like fun. Horror really isnt my cup of tea, mainly because I dont find horror films all that scary in general. Â However regarding slashers. Surely stuff like Black Christmas (1974) with John Saxon and Margo Kidder was a progenitor of the genre. Serial killer, vacation times, Soriority House etc and Scream, pastiches/homages some of it including the phone call at the start and having iirc two different killers as the same person. Â It's that rather than Friday the 13th, which is woeful that kick started the genre. From what I can remember as I've not done horror for a bit, Friday the 13th and Halloween, basically bought what was then a subgenre into the mainstream in terms of leaving a legacy. Halloween is a great film in its own right, but it's far from original in terms of the genre it represents. Sometimes, the indestructable killer is noted as being original, but even Carrie, 4 years before Friday The 13th and 2 years before Halloween, had dealt with the supernatural, teens and dealt with the possibility of resurrection (even if was only a dream iirc). Heck, even Psycho (1960) had dealt with the bait and switch for the killers not being who they are meant to be, with the Mrs Bates/ Norman Bates deal. Mrs Voorhees is the killer in the Friday the 13th, Jason only drags some one (Alice?) into the water at the end (but again like Carrie it's dream like, then suggested leaving things open). Â Im probably babbling so I shall leave it now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Discussing slashers sounds like fun. Horror really isnt my cup of tea, mainly because I dont find horror films all that scary in general. However regarding slashers. Surely stuff like Black Christmas (1974) with John Saxon and Margo Kidder was a progenitor of the genre. Serial killer, vacation times, Soriority House etc and Scream, pastiches/homages some of it including the phone call at the start and having iirc two different killers as the same person.  It's that rather than Friday the 13th, which is woeful that kick started the genre. From what I can remember as I've not done horror for a bit, Friday the 13th and Halloween, basically bought what was then a subgenre into the mainstream in terms of leaving a legacy. Halloween is a great film in its own right, but it's far from original in terms of the genre it represents. Sometimes, the indestructable killer is noted as being original, but even Carrie, 4 years before Friday The 13th and 2 years before Halloween, had dealt with the supernatural, teens and dealt with the possibility of resurrection (even if was only a dream iirc). Heck, even Psycho (1960) had dealt with the bait and switch for the killers not being who they are meant to be, with the Mrs Bates/ Norman Bates deal. Mrs Voorhees is the killer in the Friday the 13th, Jason only drags some one (Alice?) into the water at the end (but again like Carrie it's dream like, then suggested leaving things open).  Im probably babbling so I shall leave it now  No, you're right, Pat. It's just that you're reiterating what everyone said earlier. And in punishment, you will be stalked by a PoV camera lens, with electronic beeping on the soundtrack, and then elaborately offed with a sharpened spoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I think horror is in a difficult place now; it seems stuck in the post-gore era where you're either making torture porn or some wobbly-cam or clever-spying thing. I can't remember the last horror movie that I felt had really moved the genre along. Â If I ever move back into film, my one burning desire is to do a horror film that's not set at night, or in a dark woods, or a spooky building. I'd like to see someone attempt to make a film that's scary in a really different way - in a suburban house in the middle of the day, in a crowded city street, that sort of thing. I can think of examples that are kind of like that (e.g The Wicker Man) but not in recent memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted April 16, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Many of the recent Asian horrors have a mostly daytime setting, especially stuff like Pulse and A Tale Of Two Sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DEF Posted April 16, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted April 16, 2012 Discussing slashers sounds like fun. Horror really isnt my cup of tea, mainly because I dont find horror films all that scary in general. However regarding slashers. Surely stuff like Black Christmas (1974) with John Saxon and Margo Kidder was a progenitor of the genre. Serial killer, vacation times, Soriority House etc and Scream, pastiches/homages some of it including the phone call at the start and having iirc two different killers as the same person.  Black Christmas is tremendous isn't it? So often it gets looked past. I know a lot of people who are critics of it find it to slow but to me its just crazy talk. Its a cracking slasher AND it has John Saxon what's not to love? Back on-topic I think I'd put much higher.  Might have to watch it again tonight now. Maybe in a My Bloody Valentine double bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 No, you're right, Pat. It's just that you're reiterating what everyone said earlier. And in punishment, you will be stalked by a PoV camera lens, with electronic beeping on the soundtrack, and then elaborately offed with a sharpened spoon. Â I was kinda rambling, got distracted and came back and rewrote what Id written. I'd only skimmed through the thread before hand, hence the reiteration. Soz. Sharpened spoon? Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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