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Two rights make a wrong.

The Hitman

By The Hitman
in UK Fan Forum

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Teq Newbie

Teq

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I don't know what matches you were watching but Bret vs. Shawn at WM XII is a wrestling clinic, a timeless match you can sit back and watch masterful realistic looking back and forth wrestling. Takes some skill putting on that match with the perfect timing and pace they did. Also, Bret vs. Shawn in Montreal is one of the best WWF main event brawls in history, you must have made the mistake of going into it expecting to see technical wrestling and Shawn flipping around. It was the most hate filled brawl perhaps in the company's history, expecting anything but a stiff all over brawl would be daft, you can almost taste the hatred with each strike thrown it's awesome. I thought it was marvellous and still do.

 

Rockers vs. Hart Foundation is a match that got pulled from TV for having the rope break. Surely expectations going in are that it would turn into a mess. Strangely I thought it was pretty great until the finish which looked like horse shit thanks to the rope.

 

Shawn vs. Perfect at Summerslam is the exact match I thought of when I saw this thread. They had an AWESOME match from 1991 that is miles better.

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ratedrpoed Enthusiast

ratedrpoed

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hhh vs hbk hell in a cell & 2 out of 3 fall matches i thought were overrated,

 

By who? They're slaughtered every time they get mentioned.

 

i've heard people say the HIAC was one of the best that they've seen, same with the other match plus people saying hbk/hhh always had good matches with each other.

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Teq Newbie

Teq

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I've never heard one good thing about HHH/HBK at Armageddon '02, HIAC or Royal Rumble '04. I thought all 3 were abysmal too. The best match they ever had was that December Raw in '03. Either that or something from 1996.

 

Also, to the person who said the 2005 Rey vs. Eddie feud wasn't up to much, you definately haven't watched the Smackdown matches. Jesus are they good.

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air_raid Grand Master

air_raid

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I don't know what matches you were watching

 

Please, be more patronizing.

 

but Bret vs. Shawn at WM XII is a wrestling clinic, a timeless match you can sit back and watch masterful realistic looking back and forth wrestling. Takes some skill putting on that match with the perfect timing and pace they did.

 

Timeless is the right word. I in particular felt that time stood still during that match. The pace you mention is pacing themselves for only one hot spell, the last five minutes. Played out in highlight form, it looks incredible, and had they compressed what they did do into a thirty-minute match, it would be lauded as one of the best matches of all time.

 

As it is, the more impressive spots - a back superplex and piledriver from Bret, Shawn's dive to the floor, Mark Yeaton eating a superkick - are largely out of context with the relative bugger-all for a good few minutes either side. What you have is about twenty minutes of Bret holding Shawn in a headlock, about twenty minutes of Shawn holding Bret in a short-arm scissors, and a hot home run marred by a wholly unconvincing time limit false finish. Every one of us knew Shawn was going to bloody win, and that finish killed me, already exhausted from enduring a fairly lifeless 60 minutes, since I knew it still wasn't over.

 

What makes it worse still is the knowledge that free from the constraints of the match being forced to last 60 minutes, the two had some really great matches together, and that other pairs of wrestlers have been able to put on a well-paced well-timed match of that length - or longer - without using rest holds for a large majority of the match. I'm tempted to say blame the agent rather than the wrestlers, but both men have written that they pieced it together themselves. Oh well. As for "realistic" wrestling, Bret also said in his book that Shawn took liberties, but I assume we can take that with a sackload of salt.

 

I tried to dismiss my dislike for this match as biased since I was a Bret Hart fan as a child, but having rewatched it a couple of times within the last couple of years, it still bores me almost to tears. But then, that's just my opinion and one that's shared by a few others on here. Who knows, the match could just be underrated.

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Teq Newbie

Teq

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It would have been MUCH better had it just went 50 minutes, I'll be the first to say and if it had no pre-conceived time limit (This is my ONLY criticism of the match), but anybody who has ever watched that match knows Bret doesn't just keep Shawn in a headlock and Shawn keep Bret in a short arm-scissor. There are countless great pieces of wrestling and moments still remembered to this day littered within the match. I'm hard pressed to think of other WWE matches where the basic fundamentals, chain wrestling and strikes (particularly Brets) look more crisp and realistic. I appreciate it isn't to everybodies tastes, but I can't appreciate wrestling fans not admiring or giving credit for it having two stellar performances with a hell of a lot of finely tuned good work within it. Not one lost looking moment, not something I can say for anybody else who has ever tried an Ironman match.

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air_raid Grand Master

air_raid

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but anybody who has ever watched that match knows Bret doesn't just keep Shawn in a headlock and Shawn keep Bret in a short arm-scissor.

 

Did I not make it perfectly clear I've watched the match, more than once?

 

I appreciate it isn't to everybodies tastes, but I can't appreciate wrestling fans not admiring or giving credit for it having two stellar performances with a hell of a lot of finely tuned good work within it.

 

That's a contradiction. You can appreciate they don't like the match, but only if they don't disagree that the performances were stellar and that it had a lot of good work? What you mean (I hope) is you can appreciate other people may have an opinion that differs from your own, even if you don't agree with it. Otherwise you might as well just spout hyperbolic self-aggrandisizing nonsense like "I don't know what matches you were watching" or stating what "anybody who has ever watched that match knows."

 

As it is, I fully appreciate the effort the two men put in, and indeed the concept of the story they attempted to tell, but in terms of execution as an entertainment event, in my humble opinion it failed to hold the attention.

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tiger_rick Grand Master

tiger_rick

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Not one lost looking moment, not something I can say for anybody else who has ever tried an Ironman match.

 

I felt HHH/Rock filled their time brilliantly. It's actually my favourite match ever.

Wouldn't go that far but it is brilliant. It highlights everything that was wrong with Bret vs. Shawn. Sod all happened. Most wrestling matches go 15-25 minutes before a pinfall. Bret vs. Shawn suffered from the flawed idea that going 60 minutes without a loss would make both guys look stronger. It didn't, it just meant the match had no goal and dragged and dragged. It was a babyface match, neither guy needed protecting. It should have gone 1-1 at least, preferably 2-2. It's a fantastic catalyst for Bret's heel turn a year later but bugger all else.

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