LWOLeN Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Is he a World Champion though? Was the title defended as a World Championship? Did it ever get defended outside the US? Â Â And yes, he defended it in Japan also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 12, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 12, 2012 Defending it in other countries means nothing though. If the promotion says your the world champion, that means you are, because nobody ACTUALLY defends any of the belts, because the promoter gives them to you. If WCW put a belt on Rude and didn't recognise him as world champion, that means he wasnt the world champion. Â A bit like how Kurt Angle wasnt an NWA champion, although he won the physical belt on a TNA PPV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ok tne. Gaping_Gash_of_Joy Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Right, so as shown above, he was a World Champion. The image says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LWOLeN Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 A bit like how Kurt Angle wasnt an NWA champion, although he won the physical belt on a TNA PPV. Â Yes. Winning didn't make him a NWA champion, but it DID make him a legitimate TNA World Champion right away? Or was he only officially the TNA champ when he was awarded the new TNA belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 12, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 12, 2012 No, he had to win the TNA belt at the next PPV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted February 12, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 12, 2012 Defending it in other countries means nothing though. Â Too right. Ulf Herman defended the 1PW title in Germany, meant fuck all. Made him the "World Heavyweight Champion" of Doncaster, nothing more. Roderick Strong defended the FIP title in Liverpool on an ROH show, so they started referring to it as the FIP World Heavyweight title, even though FIP itself had never promoted a card outside of Florida. Â If you fancy retconning the International title into a World title because Rick Rude held it, when in reality it was a short-lived awkward "ummm... and we also have this belt over here" title, making the best out of a bad situation and managing to have some decent matches contested for it, so be it. In reality, it's remembered by fans of the company at the time in similar fashion to the FTW title and the Headbangers toy tag team belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Eric Young's a former TNA World Champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraserbee Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 So basically, Rude's big gold belt was just literally a "prop" Â Is that not the case with all professional wrestling titles though? Â In my view, although the championship was not 'sanctioned' by the NWA anymore, Rude did defeat Ric Flair for the title, did go on to defend it on high profile WCW PPVs against worthy opponents, such as Flair and Sting and went on to trade the title back and forth in Japan with Hiro Hase and Sting before getting injured. As an 11 year old completley non-smart fan in 1993-1994, I thought he was a proper world champion. That's what counts for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 WCW and NWA titles you can just about pull off an explanation. WWE and "World" on Raw/Smackdown, maybe you can make the argument. But even using the most kayfabed storyline logic, I don't see how you can argue that WCW (which promoted as a single brand) could have two legitimate world titles at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigBoot Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 It is a strange situation indeed. I think the majority of the problem comes down to WCW not being able to come up with a definitate name for The Big Gold Belt once the NWA dropped out and before it evolved into being known as the International Title. Had they come up with the 'International' name straight away for what title Flair was defending against Rude there wouldn't be this problem. But this is WCW we are talking about. They couldn't and didn't.  Fall Brawl should have been the biggest night of Rude's career. In the build-up to the event it was still for the NWA Title and the whole hype was on Rude being ready to win it (he'd come close the previous year against Chono if you remember) but by the time the PPV itself happened the NWA refused to sanction the match and so they were left just calling it the "World Title" and Rick Rude as "the World Champion" on the night. You'll note that in those videos in the OP the match was announced as been for "the World Heavyweight Championship", Flair as "the World Heavyweight Champion" and Rude as "the New World Heavyweight Champion" so that's what he was.  "NWA" was never mentioned. That's because they legally couldn't.  Currently we have a "WWE Champion" and a "World Heavyweight Champion" in WWE. It doesn't matter which you won, you go in the history books as some sort of a "WWE World Champion" anyway....  Back in the early nineties there was a similar situation with Flair going to the WWF and the WCW/NWA split. Suddenly there was a "WCW Champion" (new belt) and a "World Heavyweight Champion/ WCW International Heavyweight Champion" (big gold).  I remember they went through a phase of Solie and Regal talking about the "WCW Champion" (Vader) and the "World Heavyweight Champion" (Rude). Of course, it was also referred to simply as "The Big Gold Belt" but I'm sure there were times it was also just called "The Heavyweight Title" as well.  Then when they later did come up with a name? I remember a couple of jokes about how WCW spent weeks and weeks trying to and the best they could come up with was "The International Heavyweight Title" Around '94 I think WCW tried to recon it with as Naitch as the first International Champion (passing the belt to Rude at Fall Brawl '94) but the fact is that wasn't what it was called at the time. It was the World Heavyweight Title just not the World Heavyweight Title of WCW or NWA or anything else.  In hindsight he was really build as a legitimate "World Heavyweight Champion" at the time, defending the title against Flair/ Sting and in Japan.  At first, sure. The magazines kayfabe at the time made a fairly big deal about Rude winning the World Title at first, although I suppose a lot of that might have been written when it was planned to be an NWA Title win. I also remember him and Vader receiving fairly similar treatment on TV (at least in the ITV versions) in terms of status. There was a good article I read at the time about who the true champion of WCW was - Rude or Vader. From a smart fan perspective it was obvious (Vader) but I do admire them for making the most of a horrible situation. By the end of the year, it and Rude had dropped considerably in value and it was pure secondary title from then onwards.  One of the main criticisms I used to read/hear (this was at the time still had a few friends who watched wrestling) of WCW back in Autumn 1993 was that they seemed to go back and forth on which belt was most important between Vader (WCW) and Windham/Flair/Rude (NWA upto August/later World) - I'd say it was Vader's but with him involved in tag matches at back-to-back PPVs it meant Flair becoming "Ten Time" NWA Champ was treated as a big deal as was Rude winning The Big One - and that it was damaging Vader whereas with WWF/E you are always going to know who 'The Man' is (Yokozuna) in terms of titles.  By the time Starrcade came around though things had definitely switched and the could be no doubt in anyone's minds that Vader/Flair was for the belt. Rude's strap was a clear mid-level secondary title from that point onwards good matches or not. Don't really remember it being hyped much again until they decided to unify it with Flair's purely for Hogan coming in.  RRR should defo be reconised as a former wcw world champion as like you said He Was. As a massive RRR fan I'm still suprised WWE hasn't inducted him into the HOF but have inducted people like Edge lol??  I much prefer Rude over Edge as a performer but Edge accomplished more in WWE than Rude did. He also didn't jump to WCW and summarily die of an overdose of "mixed medications" before he had the chance to be inducted.   RRR definitely was good enough to be recognized as a wcw world champ but I remember at the time it was'nt really a world title it was called the international title, unrecognized by the NWA.  At the time Rude won it it wasn't it was just called "the World Heavyweight Title" (that was its name). It later became The International Title in the same way the Eastern Championship Wrestling title later became the Extreme Championship Wrestling World Title.  Is Barry Windham recognized as wcw champ beacause I'm pretty sure it was clled the nwa belt when he had it.  Not the same situation at all. Windham was the legitimate NWA Champ whilst working for WCW just like Muta was the NWA Champ working for NJPW, Shamrock was the NWA Champ working for TNA, or Candido was the NWA Champ whilst working for SMW. That's because their title reigns were authorised by the National Wrestling Alliance board of directors. They may have toured less than NWA World Champs of the 40s to mid-80s but legally and officially they still the boys the NWA decided represented them as World Champion.  Rude's wasn't for the reasons below. Whether it should count as 'a World Title' however is a different issue but he certainly wasn't one who was sanctioned by the NWA.  The build-up and the entire feud may have been based around Rick Rude becoming NWA World Champion but since the match itself wasn't recognised by the NWA it doesn't matter.  They crowned a new champion in New Japan's G1 Climax, won by Masahiro Chono. The NWA title passed to Keiji Muto, to Barry Windham, to Flair. During this time the NWA continued to allow their title to be defended on WcW shows. The NWA did not agree to Flair/Rude at Fall Brawl '93 being for their title, I'm not sure why but I suspect it was for WcW announcing the title match without consulting the board first. The NWA did not sanction the match, which WcW put on and announced as a "World Heavyweight Title" match anyway, and the Alliance promptly stripped Flair of the title.  AFAIK it was because WCW gave away the result, as they often did with title changes that 'hadn't happened yet', by having Rude announced as NWA World Champion a for the next month's worth of TV tapings at Disney. The thing is technically, WCW was a member of the NWA at the time when they had Rude walk around with what was technically still the NWA World Title at that point but by the time he actually 'won' it it no longer was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 They crowned a new champion in New Japan's G1 Climax, won by Masahiro Chono. The NWA title passed to Keiji Muto, to Barry Windham, to Flair. During this time the NWA continued to allow their title to be defended on WcW shows. The NWA did not agree to Flair/Rude at Fall Brawl '93 being for their title, I'm not sure why but I suspect it was for WcW announcing the title match without consulting the board first. The NWA did not sanction the match, which WcW put on and announced as a "World Heavyweight Title" match anyway, and the Alliance promptly stripped Flair of the title. Â AFAIK it was because WCW gave away the result, as they often did with title changes that 'hadn't happened yet', by having Rude announced as NWA World Champion a for the next month's worth of TV tapings at Disney. The thing is technically, WCW was a member of the NWA at the time when they had Rude walk around with what was technically still the NWA World Title at that point but by the time he actually 'won' it it no longer was. Â This is right. Â WCW had Rude come out as NWA World Champion at TV Tapings without actually bothering to clear the change with the NWA Board of Directors. The other NWA members were already pissed that they weren't getting access to the Champion (which was sort of the whole point of NWA membership) so refused to authorize the Title change, which led to WCW quitting the Alliance. Â All very unprofessional and immature really. Â Also, it wasn't actually the WCW International Title, it was the WCW International World Title, as if WCW International was a separate organisation from WCW and recognised a different World Champion. Quite creative really (I seem to remember the guys on DSF playing up to it a bit) but it still doesn't make it a legit World Title in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 AFAIK it was because WCW gave away the result, as they often did with title changes that 'hadn't happened yet', by having Rude announced as NWA World Champion a for the next month's worth of TV tapings at Disney. The thing is technically, WCW was a member of the NWA at the time when they had Rude walk around with what was technically still the NWA World Title at that point but by the time he actually 'won' it it no longer was. Â Textbook. Was this not also the tapings that featured the Blonds, the Horsemen and the Nasty Boys all wearing the tag team titles, and Sid with the WcW Heavyweight title - which he of course, never got to win? Of course, you won't need telling that in 1991 the Steiners managed to beat The Freebirds a full six days before the later took the belts themselves from Doom! Â I'm glad that you brought up EcW too, since the NWA followed up the Flair/Rude mess by taking fucking ages to arrange their tournament to crown a new champion.... held in a certain bingo hall. Longtime Big 3 fans of course will remember the end of that tournament fairly well. Â Â Then followed another tournament, won by Chris Candido over Tracy Smothers, in what surely ranks as the worst booking in NWA title history. Just think, TO THIS DAY Smothers would probably still be defending that title in dance-offs all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 Also, it wasn't actually the WCW International Title, it was the WCW International World Title, as if WCW International was a separate organisation from WCW and recognised a different World Champion. Quite creative really (I seem to remember the guys on DSF playing up to it a bit) but it still doesn't make it a legit World Title in my mind. Â I think they tried to portray it as WCW being the US member of WCW International (ie a straight swap for NWA.) I'm pretty sure they asked "WCW International" to rule on Flair being reinstated after he lost a retirement match. Â (Checks Wikipedia): Yep, that was the deal. Sonny Onno was the Japanese member of the WCW International board using a fake name. I think the others were Sharon Sidello (Turner exec/Ole Anderson's bird) and some German called Dieter Krapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 Then followed another tournament, won by Chris Candido over Tracy Smothers, in what surely ranks as the worst booking in NWA title history. Just think, TO THIS DAY Smothers would probably still be defending that title in dance-offs all over the world. Â Yeah, but you did get the great story of Candido spotting Lou Thesz in an airport, introducing himself as the NWA champ, and Thesz just saying "Really? Well make sure they pay you, kid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted February 13, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 Yeah, but you did get the great story of Candido spotting Lou Thesz in an airport, introducing himself as the NWA champ, and Thesz just saying "Really? Well make sure they pay you, kid." Â That's awesome. Â Sonny Onno was the Japanese member of the WCW International board using a fake name. I think the others were Sharon Sidello (Turner exec/Ole Anderson's bird) and some German called Dieter Krapper. Â That's better. Â I actually loved most of what WcW to enhance the idea of them being a big part in a global wrestling scene. Bringing in Mike Tenay with his background knowledge, the World Cup of wrestling at Starrcade 95, acknowledging things like the J-Crown, bringing Bull Nakano and Akira Hokuto in to work with Madusa and guys coming in from AAA, exporting the nWo angle to New Japan... acknowledging the world outside their bubble really made WcW stand out as different from the WWF, and that's why I loved it. Â When TNA try and do the same.... well, the IWGP title belts change hands in a table match because the heels tell the ref they put the champions through one, and you get bollocks like "Okato." Â Oh and just to keep it relatively OT, on the subject of the international crossovers, I loved when Rick Rude challenged Masa Chono for the NWA title at (IIRC) Havoc 92 and had to name a substitute to defend his US title against Nikita Koloff, so let VADER do it. Good call Ravishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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