Monday Night Raw Discussion

[Dingo Warrior]

I've only read the spoilers, but reading those I was disappointed. I was hoping for Punk to get ace crushered into oblivion. Johnny Ace has been made so much more likable than Punk. CM Punk is one of the worst babyfaces of all time.

 

That accolade belongs to John Cena

[Ron Simmons]

I am in love with Johnny Ace just now but for all the wrong reasons. He sucks as an on screen charachter but he is playing up to it that he sucks as an on screen charachter and not a good bad guy you love to hate to get more heat. It's really shit that i like the way he is doing it but it's damm smart.

I don't see how he sucks as an on screen character, the heat he gets is because he's been Vince McMahon's corporate stooge for a decade, he took the "People's Boss" Triple H's job, and because he constantly opposes babyface champion CM Punk and hangs around with brown-noser heels like David Otunga and Del Rio. He's constantly funny for all the right reasons, he is severely better than Theodore Long (and every GM since Eric Bischoff) and he isn't an annoying "Go away heel" like Michael Cole and Vickie Guerrero.

Firstly, Paul Heyman was a fantastic GM of Smackdown, and William Regal was brilliant in his short run on top of RAW.

 

Secondly, how can you possibly define Vickie Guerrero's heat as "go away" heat?? What can you base that statement on? Vickie's evolved into a fantastic on-screen character after a shakey introduction with Chavo. Her run with Edge was outstanding, and she's developed her character further to be a great addition to Dolph Ziggler's act. Vickie Guerrero will one day be in the WWE Hall of Fame, and it's entirely down to her own work (and not the way she got her WWE start) that her wrestling career has reached this level.

 

As for Michael Cole, he's great in small doses, and his pre-Wrestlemania run with King was great. If he'd been appointed GM I think people would be raving about how entertaining he was right now. It's just the fact he's on the announce table and can overshadow the show that does lead to Cole-overkill sometimes. But he can be genuinely funny, and if he were an on-screen character rather than an announcer, his OTT antics could be brilliant. He'd be an awesome Smackdown GM if they feel like ditching Teddy.

 

I like Laurinitus, he's a very different kind of GM to any one we've had before, but I think you're seriously underrating a whole bunch of other people.

[MoistVaj]

I wouldn't say she's a great addition to Dolph Ziggler's act at all, it's about time he went on his own.

[Ron Simmons]

I wouldn't say she's a great addition to Dolph Ziggler's act at all, it's about time he went on his own.

I really enjoy her - but you're probably right - to reach the next level he possibly needs to go solo. There are plenty of other ways to use Vickie.

[NEWM]

Love the thinking behind the Cena storyline, but that Kane promo went on a bit didn't it?

 

Other than that, I couldn't give two shites about Kane on a good day, but I can see the sense in slotting him in for this. I'd like to think this is part of something a bit bigger on the road to Mania, where Cena despatches of Kane only to face more of this from other people. It culminates in the giant bowl of hatred he'll face against hometown Rock at Wrestlemania. Should be fun.

 

No idea how they progress it beyond there, but I'm interested enough.

[CleetusVanDamme]

Vickie Guerrero will one day be in the WWE Hall of Fame

 

Even Koko B Ware's looking at that and thinking "fuck me, are they going to let everyone in?"

 

 

And how has her character developed at all since she's been with Ziggler? She's doing the EXACT same thing she was doing with Escobar.

[Ron Simmons]

Vickie Guerrero will one day be in the WWE Hall of Fame

 

Even Koko B Ware's looking at that and thinking "fuck me, are they going to let everyone in?"

 

 

And how has her character developed at all since she's been with Ziggler? She's doing the EXACT same thing she was doing with Escobar.

Since she's been Smackdown GM she's developed her "cougar" character nicely, and she's definitely playing a very different character than the one who was paired with Edge despite her character essentially doing the relationship gimmick three times. That said, the Escobar run was far too short to call it the "exact same thing". Creative could obviously see Escobar wasn't going to go anywhere, and gave the pairing role to a wrestler with more potential. Since being paired with Vickie, Ziggler's mic work has improved significantly, and he's developed nicely as a character.

 

And Vickie's been one of the biggest WWE success stories from the latter half of the noughties. She pretty much WAS Smackdown alongside Edge during her run as GM - what she did defined the show. There's not another heel since the brand split who has gotten even close to the level of reaction she gets on a regular basis.

 

She absolutely deserves a HOF slot at this point, and she'll eventually get one too.

[Slapnut]

It's absolute insanity to even suggest Vickie Guerrero deserves even the slightest possibility of a Hall of Fame spot. I suppose I can see why people think she's a good heel (I personally think she's shit) but come on, you have be joking at least a little bit here.

 

Besides, do you really think that Dolph's improvement is Vickie's doing? I'd put it all down to himself.

[Ron Simmons]

It's absolute insanity to even suggest Vickie Guerrero deserves even the slightest possibility of a Hall of Fame spot. I suppose I can see why people think she's a good heel (I personally think she's shit) but come on, you have be joking at least a little bit here.

 

Besides, do you really think that Dolph's improvement is Vickie's doing? I'd put it all down to himself.

In terms of mic work and ring work, it's probably down to behind the scenes work. In terms of the guy actually forming an interesting character and gaining a reaction from fans, I think his pairing with Vickie has done him wonders.

 

As far as Vickie's HOF credentials go, it isn't insanity. It's insanity to suggest it's insanity. Vickie's been around for some time now, and there are plenty of people who have wormed their way into the HOF having achieved much less.

 

Vickie has been one of the key players in the WWE over the past five years, and as a result will have a very good chance of becoming a HOF entrant one day. I'd be surprised if it didn't happen.

 

Vickie Guerrero has been one of the most prominant and impactful GM's since the brand split. If you look at someone like Mae Young - she's pretty much gained HOF entry through being a memorable on-screen character as opposed to her actual wrestling achievements. And Mae has never been presented as anywhere near as prominant a character as Vickie has been.

 

Vickie's a huge success story, and I think the odds are in her favour of a HOF induction some day.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

Just saw raw yesterday and was wondering what happened with the conspiracy angle thats gone really quiet, and then realised something.

 

Earlier in the year R Truth was running around trying to convince everyone of "the conspiracy". He's now back as a face and I think this might be due to them wanting to push the conspiracy angle again and it's intrical for truth to do this as a face.

 

Basically my theory was that "the conspiracy" was linked to cena, I.e. Cena is secretly a corporate stooge. He hates the fans really but he's putting on a face act. And wwe management are secretly trying to keep talent down (like cm punk) so that they can build up their incredibly importantly wrestlemania title match the rock vs cena. Wwe are doing everything in their power to ensure cena goes in looking strong and that he will walk inti mania the champion.

 

Here's how I see the angle playing out:

 

- The royal rumble winner will be forced to compete for the world title, keeping rock / cena 1 on 1.

- Cm Punk will be screwed out of the wwe title at the elimination chamber and the belt will find it's way around cenas waist.

- Nash, Laringitus, McMahon and possibly Triple H are all in on it.

- The rock is not in on it, though the option for him to be on it is there.

- On the run up to mania the now face R Truth is going to expose the conspiracy firmly completing cenas heel turn.

- Cena will win at mania via a utter screw job.

 

Just my theory, but my point is that I think r truth's face turn is so forced is because he HAS to be face for the next part of a crucial storyline.

[I Bent My Wookie]

Anyone see Ziggler winning next Monday with Y2J being It Begins and screwing Punk out of the title?

 

I'm really thinking that it may happen and it will begin the build up towards Punk vs Y2J at WM.

 

Its such an outside bet, but I think its entirely possible right now as a further Punk being screwed thing.

[ColinBollocks]

Other than that, I couldn't give two shites about Kane on a good day, but I can see the sense in slotting him in for this. I'd like to think this is part of something a bit bigger on the road to Mania, where Cena despatches of Kane only to face more of this from other people. It culminates in the giant bowl of hatred he'll face against hometown Rock at Wrestlemania. Should be fun.

Yeah, I can see something like that. Kind of like Star Wars, with ultimate good guy Cena, getting slowly seduced by the dark side.

 

Imagine the heat he'll get if he turns heel at 'Mania and somehow cheats The Rock out of his big Wrestlemania/hometown win. I know it's WWE and they'll fuck it up somehow, but a rematch at Summer Slam or something will surely do monster business if all goes well (again big if).

[Statto]

Just my theory, but my point is that I think r truth's face turn is so forced is because he HAS to be face for the next part of a crucial storyline.

 

I agree that R-Truth's face turn is forced, but IMO forced only by his love of the synthetic puff.

 

They had to write him out quickly, most logical way way Miz taking him out, so he had to come back and challenge Miz.

 

Given the reaction he got (still getting the Whats, etc.), I imagine his face run will be about as long-lasting as Edge's following Rumble 2010, but there is a chance he could get over as a crazy face, if they write well enough for him (the Slammys Raw did hammer home how about 75% of WWE's good comedy moments in 2011 were as a result of crazy Truth.)

[Smegma Cake]

Vickie's good, but she's not that good

 

[Up Chuck]

Just got around to watching this. I enjoyed the Kane/Cena stuff. I really, really like the direction they're taking with it. Really getting into the meat of the crowd reactions Cena's been getting on-off for about 5 years now (as opposed to just writing them off as "energy" or whatever) feels really fresh, and it's a good way to keep Cena interesting before things start building towards Wrestlemania.

 

The Punk/Laurinaitis stuff I'm not so crazy about. Thing is with Punk, while a few folk (me included, after getting a bit carried away due to half the building wearing his t-shirt at the house show I went to) were hailing him as the new Jesus, he does struggle to stay likeable sometimes. His natural charisma has always been a fine line away from arrogance, and the holes in the writing showed that up this week. They need to be really careful, because while babyface dickhead Punk works sometimes, it requires a lot of very careful structuring that Raw is never going to be capable of week in, week out (nor should it be). Laurinaitis simply came across too well in that opening segment. While the finish spot in the gauntlet kind of showed what they were going for a bit better, the whole angle seems like it could suffer, as so many others have, from being kind of half-arsed. Laurinaitis' delivery is getting better week-by-week, but if they want this to be Punk's leg-up like McMahon was for Austin, they need to make Laurinaitis act like much more of a dick pretty fucking soon.

 

Can't remember being especially wowed or appalled by anything else. I'm not sure what to make of them teasing Henry/Show/Bryan. It'll be a perfectly serviceable match, and that Bryan will add another dimension to the buildup, but surely they must be stretching people's patience for Henry and Show to breaking point by now. Then again, it's not the undercard that sells the Rumble, is it?