Slapnut Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 It's dissertation time for me, and what better way to spend 4000 words (hardly a dissertation, I know) than chatting about gangster films. Â Basically, the topic (for which I haven't exactly got a word for word question yet) is about why we tend to "support" (for lack of a better word) gangsters in films TV, even after watching them commit acts of violence. Â For example, did anybody want to see Tony Soprano get put in the slammer? Did anybody want to see Michael Corleone get whacked? I didn't, and I want to know what you think. Do you think that gangsters are glorified in films? If so, why do you think they are? If you don't, why do you think people want them to succeed? Do you even want them to succeed or do you watch with the hope that the good guys will win? Â Hopefully this will generate a decent discussion. I have no idea how I'm going to write 4000 words on it yet, but I've got a month so I've got time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted December 14, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Mother of mercy, that's an interesting topic. I think a goodly amount of it is in the life that they lead. The virtuso opening of Goodfellas shows a daring, charmed life - greasing the palms of everyone in the restaurant, being allowed access to everything they want, due to both money and respect. That's the life that Scorsese, for example, knows that many of the viewers would love, and in giving the camera unparalleled access to in, with the extended tracking shot, they are permitted through those doors. It's only later that he tears away the covers to show how morally bankrupt and tenuous this life is, and by this point it's probable that we identify too closely with the protagonists to be happy to see their gilded existence fall apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted December 14, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah Scorsese nails it in both Goodfellas & Casino. Donnie Brasco's worth a mention as it showed how petty the 'day to day' gangster life was, aside from the big score's, there's a scene where the guys are trying to break into parking meters, anything to make a quick buck as the money still has to go up the chain by any means. I don't think anyone could find the lifestyle appealing after watching these films, especially Casino. The underlying message being that nice suits, drugs & blowjobs from showgirls might seem cool but you're only one mistake away from being clubbed to death & buried alive in your pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted December 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah.. I love Scarface, but I've always thought anyone who seriously idolises Tony Montana must be an idiot, or have a short attention span and didn't quite make it to the end of the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Halitosis Romantic Posted December 14, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah.. I love Scarface, but I've always thought anyone who seriously idolises Tony Montana must be an idiot, or have a short attention span and didn't quite make it to the end of the film. Â That's the deal we make with gangster movies - most of the time, they're going to show us people leading a charmed life, doing as they please and having everyone tell them how awesome they are, and making the cops look like idiots. Then, it all comes crashing down on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm not sure if it could be considered a "gangster flick" so much but The Wire doesn't quite paint the picture of the crimelords always getting their commpuance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Most gangster films follow a strict formula in adherence with social norms. Â The gangster is the outsider, operating away from social norms, and outside of the law. The appeal of this lifestyle is noted, through partying, girls, firing large guns or whatever. Then the "abnormal" lifestyle catches up with them, and they either die or are sent to jail. Equilibrium is achieved, and the moral message that working within societal norms is in your long-term interest, is hammered home. Â The feeling one generally comes away with is "That kinda looks fun, I'm essentiall glad it's him and not me though." Â What I find interesting is how that differs from cowboy films. The cowboy represents that same "man apart" role, but often is shown having a higher moral code than "the law" and often escapes at the end. I guess cowboy films speak more to the American spirit of freedom than the American desire for law and order. Â A great film for you to look closely at in your dissertation would be "Angels With Dirty Faces". Â Â Besides being one of the greatest films ever made (and one I always forget in my Top 10s), and having one of the finest performances in any gangster film by Cagney, it also perfectly encapsulates the medium by having a "good guy" to counterbalance Cagney's bad guy. And yet you still root for him. The final scenes, with Cagney having a moment of clarity and rejecting his evil ways, is quite brilliant, but also absolutely conventional in terms of its moral message. Â Â EDIT: the famous "According to the Rules" scene: Â Â And there's a good title for your dissertation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra_gordo Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I think in Goodfellas the only character the audience should feel any compassion towards is Ray Liotas characters, he gets drawn in to the lifestyle at a young age and things go well for him, you want him to make it out. If it didn't show you him growing up, his childhood, that sort of thing and just jumped straight in in the middle the audiences response towards him might have been different. Nobody in their right minds would want to empathise with Pesci or DeNiro because, quite simply, they're bastards. I wouldn't say it glorifies gangsters either, look what happens to Joe Pesci, somebody is waiting to fuck you up at any given opportunity. And when they go in the bar to beat the shit out of that guy, it shows how these people will turn on you in a fucking heartbeat. I think DeNiros character is fucking terrifying. I'd say that movie is a bigger deterent to anybody wanting to be a mobster than glorifying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted December 14, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm not sure if it could be considered a "gangster flick" so much but The Wire doesn't quite paint the picture of the crimelords always getting their commpuance. Â I'd disagree with you there. Â <-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler Avon Barksdale ends up in prison, Stringer Bell gets betrayed by his partner and shot to death, Proposition Joe gets shot in the back of the head, Snoop gets her face blown off in an alley, Chris Partlow and Weebay end up with life imprisonment... Â The only one that ends up okay is Marlo Stanfield but he's such a psychopath he will no doubt end up dead or in prison anyway. Â [close spoiler] ");document.close(); Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted December 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah, I'd say it shows you a system that is irreparably (sp?) fucked and that the crime will keep happening at all levels, but the individuals themselves still get their comeuppance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted December 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 14, 2011 For me Millers' Crossing is the finest gangster film, and a lot of that is the strength of the characters. While Tom Reagan is a bit of a shit, you can tell he's loyal to Leo and his heart is in the right place. I think most of the people in that are so likable is because they are flawed in ways which we can relate to. Â Tom - Blind loyalty Leo - Blinded by love Johnny Caspar - Inferiority complex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WU LYF 4 LYF Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Isn't it just part of the constant desire to be the outlaw, the contrarian, against the curve? It's the same principle that makes people hate popular things, rebel in their teens against social norms, and taken to its extreme point, it makes people idolise gangsters. Problem is, most people (me included), don't have the balls to follow through on their gangster fantasies, or have the good sense not to. Most serious criminals were born into a life of crime. Â I think with Tony Montana, people want to be him before the coke addiction and descent into semi-madness and paranoia. They love his panache and his style, the way he talks, and how he went from being another schmuck washing dished to becoming a mega-rich dude on top of the world, all because of his own determination and balls. Â You also get the moral dilemma of the gangster with principles, someone like Frank Lucas from American Gangster or Sonny from Bronx Tale, a guy who does some horrific things but still lives by a set of principles. People respect that. Â I never really rooted for Tony Soprano actually, especially after he turned into this hateful, horrible person from series three onwards or so. The only character I really rooted for was Ralphie - although he did some terrible things, even beyond that expected of people involved in a life of crime, he seemed to be a very complex character, unsure of himself, trying to be dedicated to his family. Also, his most dreadful acts of violence were committed when out of his mind on coke. I like brash, outgoing but slightly contradictory gangsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylin_and_Profilin Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Slapnut  On the subject of this make sure - if you haven't already got it - that you download Banged Up Abroad: Henry Hill - The Real Goodfella.  Fascinating documentary made by National Geographic earlier in the year, gives a bit more perspective in addition to the Scorcese film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra_gordo Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Slapnut On the subject of this make sure - if you haven't already got it - that you download Banged Up Abroad: Henry Hill - The Real Goodfella.  Fascinating documentary made by National Geographic earlier in the year, gives a bit more perspective in addition to the Scorcese film.  The book is also well worth a read but it's pretty much play-by-play the same as the film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 In relation to my Wire post, I was thinking about <-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler The Greek  [close spoiler] ");document.close();. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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