Iran

[David]

The reason Iran has so many enemies is because it is an aggressive nation that for decades has broken international laws, human rights decrees, provocative militaryy action, an extreme Islamic agenda and lying to the international community.

If you remove the Islamic factor that statement could just as easily apply to Israel.

 

Just a month ago they paid for the attempted assassination of the Saudi US ambassador!

Was that ever proven? The last I heard it was simply allegations. Pretty much the same way that Iran are alleging that the US and/or Israel are behind the assassination of the Iranian scientist.

 

Stop being such a fucking child. The US, EU and UN have all told Iran to stop building nuclear weapons because due to it's aggressive nature, ridiculously high tension relationships with surrounding arab nations and isolated extreme attitude it is not in the interest of the Middle East Peace Process for Iran to have nuclear weapons.

Aggressive nature? Try looking at the countries involved in invading Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya, and carried out an illegal military operation in Pakistan. Remember "shock & awe"? They blasted the shit out of Iraq, killing numerous civilians in the process and we got it live on Sky News!

 

Also, don't Israel have nuclear weapons? They've been repsonsible for murder & oppression of the Palestinians for years. No sanctions against them?

 

But the Israelis would never attack another country without approval of the US first, as without US support they would be doomed.

No, they just commit numerous human rights violations every day against the Palestinians without anyone so much as batting an eyelid.

 

No one here is saying that Iran are an innocent party, but what some of us are saying is that it's blatantly double standards when it comes to the Western powers.

 

It's going to come back and bite them in the backside one of these days, and I'll certainly be laughing when it happens.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

Yeah, I have to agree with David on this one, Israel are as bad, if not worse, than any of the countries around them.

 

. But the Israelis would never attack another country without approval of the US first,

 

How big of them, securing the approval of the US first. What gives the USA the rights to decide who is fair game for attack and who isn't? Which is, of course, what is happening in Iran, I refuse to believe that Israel has had no hand in trying to involve the US there.

 

I think you're a bit paranoid really, this isn't leading to an arms race in the Middle East etc. If anything it's just an excuse for America to help out Israel while maybe securing a pro-west government in Iran.

[LaGoosh]

I think you're a bit paranoid really, this isn't leading to an arms race in the Middle East etc. If anything it's just an excuse for America to help out Israel while maybe securing a pro-west government in Iran.

 

I think you're a bit simple really. Don't just post stuff if you actually haven't been paying any real attention to current events relating to the issue at hand.

 

Numerous gulf states have publicly announced many times that if Iran get a nuclear weapon that they will have no choice but to have them too. And eventually every Gulf state will have nuclear weapons. If the US, EU and UN stopped "sticking their noses in" it wouldn't take much before any one of these countries (many of which have intense hate filled rivalries with eachother that go back hundreds and hundreds of years) decides to wipe out one of the others.

 

Personally if it did end up with the west in a war with Iran I think it would be absolutely fucking dreadful. But I'm not childish enough to think it's just a case of "the USA making up excuses to go to war". If anything the USA are doing all they can to avoid war by asking the UN and EU to toughen sanctions as opposed to ten years ago when they would have probably bombed them already.

 

[David]

I think you're a bit simple really. Don't just post stuff if you actually haven't been paying any real attention to current events relating to the issue at hand.

You don't need to resort to personal insults just because he's not keeping up with BBC & Sky News.

 

Again, haven't Israel got nuclear weapons? As far as I can see they're committing human rights violations right, left & centre when it comes to Palestine. Where are the sanctions on them?

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

I think you're a bit simple really.

 

Ah, the personal insult, a sure sign of a failing argument.

 

I don't have to be following every minute of the coverage to know that Israel are as guilty of the aggression, human rights violations and nuclear ambitions as Iran. But you seem to have conveniently ignored that completely in your responses.

 

If the US, EU and UN stopped "sticking their noses in" it wouldn't take much before any one of these countries (many of which have intense hate filled rivalries with eachother that go back hundreds and hundreds of years) decides to wipe out one of the others.

 

I really don't think you're giving these countries enough credit. They aren't stupid, and their governments aren't full of of uncivilised blood thirsty animals who would give no thought to the consequences of a nuclear attack. Nobody would be wiped out. Sure, they might break out into a destructive war, but that's what's going to happen anyway if the US gets involved, and they'd do a fine job to make it more violent and drawn out as the Iraq conflict.

 

Perhaps, instead of being simple, I just perceive the evidence differently to you?

[Kiffy]

Here's the fundamental flaw in the argument, "Them over there are getting away with it," doesn't work as an argument against dealing with Iran.

If there's a compelling argument for ensuring Iran is not allowed access to nuclear weapons, the fact that there's an equally compelling argument in regards to Israel (which I don't entirely accept, but for the sake of this discussion I'll ignore) is pretty much irrelevant. You could argue that we need to take a tougher line on Israel, and I'd agree, but it doesn't negate the need to deal with Iran.

[LaGoosh]

I haven't replied to your Israel comments because the Israeli issue is an argument that no one can ever win so it's completely pointless to even get into it.

 

I don't believe you have actually looked at any evidence though. Your argument is basically "the US should't stick their noses in and make up excuses to fight Iran" which isn't really looking at things realistically or logically.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

I don't believe you have actually looked at any evidence though. Your argument is basically "the US should't stick their noses in and make up excuses to fight Iran" which isn't really looking at things realistically or logically.

 

I've read quite a lot about the history of the middle east. As for what's going on now, I've not done any detailed research, but I watch the news (usually Al Jazeera, sometimes CNN or BBC) and read The Guardian, so I've got a decent idea of what's going on generally.

 

My argument isn't what you said exactly (although that's part of it). My main argument was that many countries in the world have horrible human rights cruelties and extensive weapons programs, so you can't simply single out Iran to take action against. Hence why I assumed there was ulterior motives for the US being so desperate to take action, whether it be for economic reasons or because they are ridiculously loyal to Israel (it is they who constantly veto the Palestinian statehood) who happen to be ardent enemies of Iran.

 

Also, I have a lot of Asian friends from all parts of the Middle East, and they are hugely against war with Iran, so perhaps that makes me biased. It does make me pay more attention to the atrocities committed by Israel in that region, but as you say nobody can win that argument so it's best left.

[David]

Look at it this way, Kiffy. Countries such as Iran have seen the US and their little brothers invade & install friendly Governments in many of the so-called rogue nations in the middle east and elsewhere.

 

They've seen the military action taken in places like Iraq, Libya & Afghanistan, causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, the ruthless slaughter of Gaddafi and the hanging of Saddam Hussein.

 

Another point there regarding the Iranian television channel. They are out of line for broadcasting an interview with a kidnapped reporter, yet our media have no issue with displaying graphic images of Saddam Hussein's dead children and the blood-soaked body of Gaddafi? In fact, I'm fairly sure that our news channels even went as far as showing graphic footage of Gaddafi's last moments, along with footage of his days old corpse which was being "put on display" by the "rebels".

 

For Iran to not want to be able to protect themselves against being next on the agenda would be ridiculous.

 

It may come across as a simple solution, but in many cases the simple solutions are best. If one country is allowed nuclear weapons, then they all are. I don't quite understand why we (the west) feel like it's our God-given right to police the rest of the planet.

 

And as for the Israeli argument being one that no one can ever win, the reason for that is because they have the backing of the US. They basically have a get out of jail free card that allows them to do whatever the fuck they like.

[LaGoosh]

Look at it this way, Kiffy. Countries such as Iran have seen the US and their little brothers invade & install friendly Governments in many of the so-called rogue nations in the middle east and elsewhere.

 

They've seen the military action taken in places like Iraq, Libya & Afghanistan, causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, the ruthless slaughter of Gaddafi and the hanging of Saddam Hussein.

 

Another point there regarding the Iranian television channel. They are out of line for broadcasting an interview with a kidnapped reporter, yet our media have no issue with displaying graphic images of Saddam Hussein's dead children and the blood-soaked body of Gaddafi? In fact, I'm fairly sure that our news channels even went as far as showing graphic footage of Gaddafi's last moments, along with footage of his days old corpse which was being "put on display" by the "rebels".

 

For Iran to not want to be able to protect themselves against being next on the agenda would be ridiculous.

 

It may come across as a simple solution, but in many cases the simple solutions are best. If one country is allowed nuclear weapons, then they all are. I don't quite understand why we (the west) feel like it's our God-given right to police the rest of the planet.

 

And as for the Israeli argument being one that no one can ever win, the reason for that is because they have the backing of the US. They basically have a get out of jail free card that allows them to do whatever the fuck they like.

 

There are so many issues with this post it's ridiculous. It's amazing how wrong evry single thing in there is. It may be one of the worst things I have ever read.

[David]

There are so many issues with this post it's ridiculous. It's amazing how wrong evry single thing in there is. It may be one of the worst things I have ever read.

I'll humour you. I've got nothing else to do right now.

 

They've seen the military action taken in places like Iraq, Libya & Afghanistan, causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, the ruthless slaughter of Gaddafi and the hanging of Saddam Hussein.

Okay, so there were no innocent civilians killed in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya? Gaddafi wasn't slaughtered and Saddam wasn't hanged?

 

Another point there regarding the Iranian television channel. They are out of line for broadcasting an interview with a kidnapped reporter, yet our media have no issue with displaying graphic images of Saddam Hussein's dead children and the blood-soaked body of Gaddafi? In fact, I'm fairly sure that our news channels even went as far as showing graphic footage of Gaddafi's last moments, along with footage of his days old corpse which was being "put on display" by the "rebels".

Our media never broadcast any of the footage I mentioned there?

 

Away you go LaGoosh, you're being a bit of a tit. I've never seen a forum member with a more apt avatar.

[WU LYF 4 LYF]

La Goosh, if it's that wrong take it apart and contradict everything he says. Saying 'everything there is so wrong it's not worth responding' or 'you must be simple to think that' implies that it's your argument that has no substance. if all he says is so ridiculous it shouldn't be too hard for you to argue against it properly, instead of posting a derisory and dismissive sentence.

[Dr.PeterVenkman]

Just read through this thread, after seeing some posters defending David in the white noise voting thread, I have to ask why they bothered, apparently a reasoned debate just involves slagging off anyone who disagrees with your opinion

[David]

Just read through this thread, after seeing some posters defending David in the white noise voting thread, I have to ask why they bothered, apparently a reasoned debate just involves slagging off anyone who disagrees with your opinion

Have I slagged anyone off?

[Dr.PeterVenkman]

Just read through this thread, after seeing some posters defending David in the white noise voting thread, I have to ask why they bothered, apparently a reasoned debate just involves slagging off anyone who disagrees with your opinion

Have I slagged anyone off?

 

Well you called LaGoosh a tit, does that not count?