Monday Night Raw - November 21st 2011 Discussion

[IANdrewDiceClay]

It is 1997, though. Neck beards are in our future.

[Foale]

the Twitter logo being interrupted on Raw for those who didn't see it.

[Max Power]

John Cenas stuck in limbo and hes been made to look a fool by a part time attraction, thats their main guy they're making to look a tit. I also dont get why they are so afraid to turn him? The merchandise argument is shit, they can propel someone else like Orton into that main selling position if they wanted and Cena would still shift merchandise as a heel.

 

I think that's one of the reasons why many fans have currently shat on Cena. Rock has turned up, looked and acted cool as fuck, beat up Cena, then pissed off again till March. It makes the top guy look shite in comparison to Rock. Especially as it was initially pushed on commentary that Rock may have lost a step, before they decided he hadn't, but he still could beat down Cena. It just doesn't wash. Especially when the silly sod laughs it off the day after on Raw and acts like nothing happened.

 

Here's a question that probably Ian or Butch could answer. How do Cena's reactions compare to how Hogan's were before his turn? Was the Hogan Hate more or less than the current Cena bashing. I know there was no internet then, so there was no such thing as an internet smark, but there were still fans who were sick of Hogan's act - similar to what happens now.

 

The main difference I guess is that there is no need to turn Cena. WWE still turn a massive profit, Cena himself shifts a load of merch. There is also no competition, and no need to take a risk in order to progress creatively to try to push new boundaries.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Is Cena booed more or less than Hogan was?

[Van Dammer]

Few things from RAW, better from Punk although why get him to pull the company up on the 'Universe' saying and such when its just going to be used by everyone else for the rest of the night as if nothing had been said?

To pander to Dem Wans.

 

Well yeah, but it got a fair laugh and cheer from the crowd, because it basically showed it up for being a scripted and lame term, yet every talent after that was prepared to say it, surely making them exactly that. I dont really complain about continuity stuff from months before, but 15 minutes is surely long enough for the writers to be able to keep up and stick to something, otherwise why shit on your own term?

 

John Cenas stuck in limbo and hes been made to look a fool by a part time attraction, thats their main guy they're making to look a tit. I also dont get why they are so afraid to turn him? The merchandise argument is shit, they can propel someone else like Orton into that main selling position if they wanted and Cena would still shift merchandise as a heel.

 

I think that's one of the reasons why many fans have currently shat on Cena. Rock has turned up, looked and acted cool as fuck, beat up Cena, then pissed off again till March. It makes the top guy look shite in comparison to Rock. Especially as it was initially pushed on commentary that Rock may have lost a step, before they decided he hadn't, but he still could beat down Cena. It just doesn't wash. Especially when the silly sod laughs it off the day after on Raw and acts like nothing happened.

 

Here's a question that probably Ian or Butch could answer. How do Cena's reactions compare to how Hogan's were before his turn? Was the Hogan Hate more or less than the current Cena bashing. I know there was no internet then, so there was no such thing as an internet smark, but there were still fans who were sick of Hogan's act - similar to what happens now.

 

The main difference I guess is that there is no need to turn Cena. WWE still turn a massive profit, Cena himself shifts a load of merch. There is also no competition, and no need to take a risk in order to progress creatively to try to push new boundaries.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Is Cena booed more or less than Hogan was?

 

Well he didnt really get beat down, but yeah I agree.

 

Cenas pops have definately dimmed to the point where no matter where they are now crowds are atleast 50% against him, whereas it used to be around the 10-20% mark a year or so ago. The merchandise argument doesnt wash because they can project others into that position, look how easy Zach Ryder and Punk have suddenly become big merchandise hits. And its not like hes so good at being a face, because hes not, hes getting booed virtually anywhere although thats more to do with whats being written for him and his delivery of it. Plus you have to consider how much it will improve business having a shit hot heel in the company (which they havent had for a while IMO) and how that could spike business.

 

My memory isnt so strong but I cant ever remember Hogan getting the reactions Cena got before his 1996 turn on a consistent basis.

[Doog]

I think there's a danger that Cena is becoming so unpopular that if they do turn him it wont be as well received as it could have.

 

There's people that love him I get that, hell I don't dislike him, but the fact the boos are getting worse says to me more and more people are starting to turn on him. Turns always work better, especially heel turns, wheh there's a large part of the crowd that support them, so.the longer they keep the Cena character the same, the more people are turning against him, so when they do eventually do.the turn, there's a hell a lot of people already hating him so it wont mean as much as it could.

 

They need to do the turn soon, otherwise apathy will set in with Cena. I don't believe the cena haters tune in to see him lose, they just don't want to see him at all. Promos like last night do not help at all.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Here's a question that probably Ian or Butch could answer. How do Cena's reactions compare to how Hogan's were before his turn? Was the Hogan Hate more or less than the current Cena bashing. I know there was no internet then, so there was no such thing as an internet smark, but there were still fans who were sick of Hogan's act - similar to what happens now.

Hogan was very, very different. Hogan wasnt WCWs only draw by the time the boos got really bad, Hogan was a special attraction type draw. Meaning if his value and popularity was getting bad, he'd go off and film something and they'd cheer him again until they got sick of him. By July 96, Hall and Nash were drawing higher TV ratings than before Hogan left to film the Secret Agent Club, and the interest they created was getting WCW buzzing without Hogan. And people seem to forget, it was actually Randy Savage and Ric Flair's matches on house shows which started the business upturn. WCW was drawing huge houses for their battles. Hogan wasnt really needed. Also, Hogan was only on a six month rolling contract until businss exploded after his heel turn and Vince came sniffing around and they had to tie him down. People compare Hogan's situation with Cena's but its completely different. WCW didnt really need Hogan when Hall and Nash came in. Hogan turned because he isnt stupid and saw two wrestlers taking the top positions and he knew turning heel would put Hall and Nash below him in the pecking order again.

 

But Cena is WWE's main draw. Nobody touches him as far as selling merchandise goes, nobody is more requested for the Make A Wish charity events, sponsorship deals or the Tribute to the Troop shows. He is a significant house show draw and he's their biggest draw on PPV. Also who is there for him to feud with if he turns heel? Hogan had Savage, Sting, Luger, Flair, The Giant, Diamond Dallas Page and about a million other people to bring in if Bischoff opened his cheque book up. Cena has got Orton. Been done a million times. CM Punk. Been done a million times. Thats about it. The cons are massively stacked against the pros of this.

[King Pitcos]

Well yeah, but it got a fair laugh and cheer from the crowd, because it basically showed it up for being a scripted and lame term, yet every talent after that was prepared to say it, surely making them exactly that. I dont really complain about continuity stuff from months before, but 15 minutes is surely long enough for the writers to be able to keep up and stick to something, otherwise why shit on your own term?

It's Punk's gimmick. He moans about things that people on forums moan about. It's the same problem he's had catching on for the last few months, he's a character for people who don't like wrestling anymore. It's not a continuity error, Punk's act isn't meant to be completely consistent with the company line or the other babyface acts on the show.

[Van Dammer]

But Cena is WWE's main draw. Nobody touches him as far as selling merchandise goes, nobody is more requested for the Make A Wish charity events, sponsorship deals or the Tribute to the Troop shows. He is a significant house show draw and he's their biggest draw on PPV. Also who is there for him to feud with if he turns heel? Hogan had Savage, Sting, Luger, Flair, The Giant, Diamond Dallas Page and about a million other people to bring in if Bischoff opened his cheque book up. Cena has got Orton. Been done a million times. CM Punk. Been done a million times. Thats about it. The cons are massively stacked against the pros of this.

 

But Hogan had all of those feuds a million times as well, barring a couple but the same goes for Cena, its a different dynamic. People forget that Cena, orton et al have been at the top for over 7 years now. There would be so much they could do with the character and the Cena face character is beyond stale as far as im concerned. A Cena heel run with the title could be great, give him a new look, he'd most likely be as cool a heel as they could have if his past brilliance is anything to go by and would open up the door for so many other people on the card to make a go as top face.

 

A feud or match isnt about how many times its done but how it feels on that one occasion, if something feels fresh and dynamic it will go down well, it doesnt necesarily have to be the first time.

 

Well yeah, but it got a fair laugh and cheer from the crowd, because it basically showed it up for being a scripted and lame term, yet every talent after that was prepared to say it, surely making them exactly that. I dont really complain about continuity stuff from months before, but 15 minutes is surely long enough for the writers to be able to keep up and stick to something, otherwise why shit on your own term?

It's Punk's gimmick. He moans about things that people on forums moan about. It's the same problem he's had catching on for the last few months, he's a character for people who don't like wrestling anymore. It's not a continuity error, Punk's act isn't meant to be completely consistent with the company line or the other babyface acts on the show.

 

I think youre giving them way too much credit here. Its like saying TLC is a shit name for a PPV and then trying to advertise it the next commercial break without blushing. I could understand if they were dropping it, its been around for years now and never caught on amongst fans, only as an on screen buzz word. I dont think his character is just for people who arent into wrestling anymore either, hes getting reactions from live crowds and even a reaction to what he said about Universe, although I agree it is a smarky character but arent fans of most age smarkier than ever?

[King Pitcos]

I think youre giving them way too much credit here.

I'm not giving them any credit. I think it's a bit fucking stupid to let your babyface world champion parrot the opinions of people who don't like wrestling anymore. But it's not a continuity oversight that nobody noticed, it's very much intentional. It's what Punk's all about.

[PepperPlunge]

Nah, I think you're making it out to be worse than it is. He does say things like 'I'm here to make wrestling fun again' but a lot of people who watch wrestling dislike certain parts of it. I think there's a lot of silly things in football but I still watch it and complain about it. Being a fan and complaining about the product aren't mutually exclusive. There's a bigger portion of the fanbase who are smartening up to the business through the internet. I don't agree with all those silly insider references before as it went over a lot of people's heads, blurred lines too much and the suspension of disbelief was gone. However, he clearly catered to a vocal audience.

[Cobra1000]

CM Punk vs Dolph Ziggler was class.

 

Entertaining Raw I thought, not too sure what TLC will hold if CM Punk vs ADR is next week, 4 Way TLC Match with Punk, ADR, Cena and Miz perhaps?

[The Miz]

In the Survivor Series thread yesterday I said I wanted Punk V Ziggler to happen at WrestleMania. After watching the match they had on Raw I will repeat that wish. Bloody fantastic match.

[fye]

People seem to be missing the point about Cena turning heel and changing his act, if he changed his act he may get cheered more and therefore a turn would be counter productive at best and pointless at worst. If they turn him heel they need to change very little about him, if they want him to be cheered more that is why they would need to change his act

 

They are booking themselves into a corner like they did when Punk was leaving. Putting Cena up against arguably the coolest babyface of all time is always going to have Cena either coming off as second best or getting booed. Either its very short sighted or is heading towards a subtle heel turn

[Van Dammer]

People seem to be missing the point about Cena turning heel and changing his act, if he changed his act he may get cheered more and therefore a turn would be counter productive at best and pointless at worst. If they turn him heel they need to change very little about him, if they want him to be cheered more that is why they would need to change his act

 

They are booking themselves into a corner like they did when Punk was leaving. Putting Cena up against arguably the coolest babyface of all time is always going to have Cena either coming off as second best or getting booed. Either its very short sighted or is heading towards a subtle heel turn

 

So at worst he becomes more popular (cheered) and at best he becomes less popular (booed) by turning heel? Thats surely the perfect scenario for a talent that cant guarantee either reaction on any given night?

[fye]

People seem to be missing the point about Cena turning heel and changing his act, if he changed his act he may get cheered more and therefore a turn would be counter productive at best and pointless at worst. If they turn him heel they need to change very little about him, if they want him to be cheered more that is why they would need to change his act

 

They are booking themselves into a corner like they did when Punk was leaving. Putting Cena up against arguably the coolest babyface of all time is always going to have Cena either coming off as second best or getting booed. Either its very short sighted or is heading towards a subtle heel turn

 

So at worst he becomes more popular (cheered) and at best he becomes less popular (booed) by turning heel? Thats surely the perfect scenario for a talent that cant guarantee either reaction on any given night?

 

Surely WWE want their babyfaces cheered and their heels booed and not the other way round though. My point was either turn him heel or change his act, dont turn him heel by changing his act. Maybe I am missing your point.