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The Dart

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Comparing it to when Triple H said Cena wasn't that talented and wasn't a very good wrestler is mental.

That Triple H line is the perfect example of how something can be blow out of proportion when its someone like Triple H saying it. They tried to make that match a real underdog story. Triple H was rich kid, who had every advantage available to him, all the best training etc. John Cena was a guy from the streets who may not be the best wrestler, but had a ton of heart and fight in him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that line towards Cena in the context of their feud/match. There is even less wrong with it when you bare in mind that Triple H tapped to Cena in the middle of the ring on the biggest show of the year. The cocky heel comes out and tells the plucky underdog face that he isn't that good of a wrestler, and then the underdog makes the cocky heel tap out to a wrestling hold. Have you never seen movies like Rocky, Karate Kid, Mighty Ducks etc? If Triple H had come out and said that Cena wasn't talented, he can't wrestle, and then squashed him, you might have a case. He came out and said Cena wasn't talented, and couldn't wrestle, and then the world watched Cena ram those words back down his throat.

 

How about you tell me, in some detail, what exactly was wrong with Triple H telling Cena he wasn't a very good wrestler, especially when you consider the context of their respective characters at the time. When you look at it as a piece as a whole, there is nothing wrong with that line. Only when you zoom in on that line with a microscope and forget everything that happened around it.

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Comparing it to when Triple H said Cena wasn't that talented and wasn't a very good wrestler is mental.

That Triple H line is the perfect example of how something can be blow out of proportion when its someone like Triple H saying it. They tried to make that match a real underdog story. Triple H was rich kid, who had every advantage available to him, all the best training etc. John Cena was a guy from the streets who may not be the best wrestler, but had a ton of heart and fight in him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that line towards Cena in the context of their feud/match. There is even less wrong with it when you bare in mind that Triple H tapped to Cena in the middle of the ring on the biggest show of the year. The cocky heel comes out and tells the plucky underdog face that he isn't that good of a wrestler, and then the underdog makes the cocky heel tap out to a wrestling hold. Have you never seen movies like Rocky, Karate Kid, Mighty Ducks etc? If Triple H had come out and said that Cena wasn't talented, he can't wrestle, and then squashed him, you might have a case. He came out and said Cena wasn't talented, and couldn't wrestle, and then the world watched Cena ram those words back down his throat.

 

How about you tell me, in some detail, what exactly was wrong with Triple H telling Cena he wasn't a very good wrestler, especially when you consider the context of their respective characters at the time. When you look at it as a piece as a whole, there is nothing wrong with that line. Only when you zoom in on that line with a microscope and forget everything that happened around it.

 

You see, now you are taking my line completely out of context.

 

I only said that in response to people claiming that this week's Punk promo was some sort of leg-cutting-off, burial of Alberto.

 

I agree, what Triple H said to Cena wasn't that bad when you consider the context and the final result (the clean tapping). But at the time, it was Triple H picking up on genuine sentiment towards Cena by a lot of vocal fans (Cena was a face at the time, yet a fair few fans cheered/laughed at the comments by Triple H). I didn't think that Punk (a Face) calling Bertie (a heel) boring, was anything like heel Triple H calling superface Cena a poor wrestler. Hence me saying that comparing the situations was insane. The face/heel divide was completely the other way.

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You see, now you are taking my line completely out of context.

 

I only said that in response to people claiming that this week's Punk promo was some sort of leg-cutting-off, burial of Alberto.

Yes, you said it in response to people claiming Punk's promo was a leg cutting off burial of Alberto. You're fighting the side of Punk's promo not being a let cutting off burial, and then used the Triple H line about John Cena as a comparison, implying that you did in fact think thats what the Triple H line was. Was this not the case? If that is not the case, then fair enough, I'm taking your line out of context. If you didn't meant it that way, you didn't make that very clear.

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You see, now you are taking my line completely out of context.

 

I only said that in response to people claiming that this week's Punk promo was some sort of leg-cutting-off, burial of Alberto.

Yes, you said it in response to people claiming Punk's promo was a leg cutting off burial of Alberto. You're fighting the side of Punk's promo not being a let cutting off burial, and then used the Triple H line about John Cena as a comparison, implying that you did in fact think thats what the Triple H line was. Was this not the case? If that is not the case, then fair enough, I'm taking your line out of context. If you didn't meant it that way, you didn't make that very clear.

Sorry if I haven't been clear, I'd been trying to debate back against 3 people throwing things at me.

 

I'm saying that I think the Triple H comments were more of a burial than those Punk made, because Triple H was saying shoot-esque stuff (at a time when in some cities fans had given Cena the "you can't wrestle" stuff and "same old shit" chants) and he was doing this as the Heel, trying to get the anti-Cena lot behind him a bit. It seemed a bit counter-productive at the time to point out your top face's shortcoming. You are right though, as in the end he put Cena over strong in a wrestling match.

 

Punk's whole gimmick at the moment is the "say what I like" rebel act, so saying shoot-esque stuff makes more sense for his character. Plus, Bertie is a Heel, so ripping into him (whether too shoot-like or not) still gets the right reaction from the fans - they cheer Punk and boo ADR. It's not the same as a heel making the face look substandard.

 

My main point was that I just didn't think the Punk stuff hurt Bertie at all. ADR's character is a smug, self-indulgent twat, so calling him boring and repetitive plays into that.

 

It wasn't me that brought up the Triple H stuff at all, it was others saying "people would have moaned if Triple H had said the same things to Alberto". It's the face/heel dynamic that I feel is important here. As i said earlier, when Triple H was the top heel in 2000 there were plenty of times when Mankind or Rock took the piss out of Triple H for his droning, 20 minute promos. That's all i felt Punk did to bertie here.

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CM Punk's promo was obviously a burial, whether he was the person that came up with it or whether he was fed it. I haven't read anywhere (even the likes of the Obsever) who say otherwise. It was obviously a killer to Del Rio. He never wins, he's holding nobody thinks he deserves, he's a boring fucker and the belt isn't entertaining in the slightest, hence the position it has on the card. And all of this is highlighted via a fake interview. Its ridiculous that they treat the WWE champion like that. Whether you think Del Rio is Fun Time Frankie or fucking useless, you have to project a bit of perception that he's good. Kozlov was boring people to tears, but they never said as much during his winning streak. John Cena on the other hand was a mega star, was drawing the buyrate for WrestleMania and wasn't going to get hurt half as much as Del Rio did if Triple H had slapped his dick in his Dad's face as Cena laughed along. Cena could take the shit from Triple H because he was going to get his heat back at WrestleMania. Del Rio will probably lose to Punk at the Survivor Series. And Punk will probably be proved correct, that Del Rio was a dullard who didnt deserve the belt. How is Del Rio going to get his heat back? He's a complete loser and the fans now know it.

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I don't think they've done much right with ADR since he failed to win the belt from Edge at Wrestlemania. They seemed to lose faith in him before he even got a chance with the belt.

 

Every feud since then (Big Show, then Cena, now Punk, I might well be forgetting something) has been incredibly boring and by-the-numbers. I honestly thought the exchange with Punk this week got the best reaction for an ADR segment in ages. Someone called him on his "destiny" shit and told him his days as Champion were numbered.

 

I think some people are reading too much into it. It may well have been a hidden dressing-down from the office, but it came across as Punk being a cocky smart-arse and winding ADR up. Punk did put over that he's a tough competitor, it's not like he laughed him off or called him a paper champion or anything. I think you'd have to be reasonably clued-up to watch that and go "ooooh, Vince has put Del Rio in the doghouse".

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They did one thing right with ADR. Having him look VERY strong beating Cena. Aye, Miz and Truth got involved, but Cena got over that and then came back, and ADR still beat him. It was the strongest win over Cena I have seen in quite some time.

What about Punk at MITB?

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Cena does a lot of jobs. He usually comes out the next week grinning his face off. Back in the day, you used to see headliners desperate to avoid doing a job. Cena just laughs it off. The night after WrestleMania was the best one. He looked like he'd just heard Mr. Anderson had fell of a ladder and broke his legs.

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I'm saying that I think the Triple H comments were more of a burial than those Punk made, because Triple H was saying shoot-esque stuff (at a time when in some cities fans had given Cena the "you can't wrestle" stuff and "same old shit" chants) and he was doing this as the Heel, trying to get the anti-Cena lot behind him a bit. It seemed a bit counter-productive at the time to point out your top face's shortcoming. You are right though, as in the end he put Cena over strong in a wrestling match.

Personally, I think your way off, and are providing a perfect illustration of the double standards that get applied to internet darlings v internet hate figures. You can make a perfectly reasoned excuse for anything you want, depending on your point of view. Triple H shouldn't have said that line because its counter productive to point out your top face's shortcomings? Yeah, thats one way of looking at it. But only a moron would be a Cena fan, only to go "hey, Triple H just said he can't wrestle, I don't like him anymore". He wasn't trying to get the anti-Cena lot behind him, they were already behind him, hence the label "anti-Cena". They were anti Cena way before Cena feuded with Triple H. They were automatically siding with whomever he was feuding with at the time. They were behind Triple H, with or without those comments.

 

Another way of looking at it, is there is nothing wrong with a cocky heel, running his mouth, under estimating/running down the plucky underdog face only to get his words rammed down his throat as the payoff. Thats the way bad guys operate in almost every form of entertainment. When Rocky was told he was over the hill and finished as a boxer, did we just give up on him? No. You can't bury someone who is as big a star as Cena with one off the cuff remark, before tapping out to him. Thats insane logic.

 

In the year or so before feuding with Triple H; Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, JBL and hell, even people like Christian had said they were better wrestlers than John Cena, but only Triple H got any stick for it, and still gets stick for such an insignificant line, half a decade later.

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I don't doubt Cena is happy to job, but I don't think he loses that clean often. It usually takes a bit of a melee to beat him. ADR took a Cena that had already overcome the odds, and put him down. I thought that was very significant, and for a short time, I totally bought him as a main player.

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Cena does a lot of jobs. He usually comes out the next week grinning his face off. Back in the day, you used to see headliners desperate to avoid doing a job. Cena just laughs it off. The night after WrestleMania was the best one. He looked like he'd just heard Mr. Anderson had fell of a ladder and broke his legs.

That's one of the character traits that's makes me dislike the Cena character. If he isn't bothered about losing, why should I be?

 

In all seriousness, if he spent the next year cutting nothing but serious promos and dropped all the "haha" shit, I think I'd like him a lot more.

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Cena does a lot of jobs. He usually comes out the next week grinning his face off. Back in the day, you used to see headliners desperate to avoid doing a job. Cena just laughs it off. The night after WrestleMania was the best one. He looked like he'd just heard Mr. Anderson had fell of a ladder and broke his legs.

Aye, that was brilliant. He was chuffed about his WrestleMania loss. Then the night after SummerSlam, he was on his biggest period ever because Alberto Del Rio beat CM Punk. He's never been as angry about one of his own losses as he was about Alberto winning the belt off Shooter Phil.

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