Is the casual fan gone from wrestling?

[:::Saturn:::]

1. The UFC has "stolen" a lot of the main wrestling target audience.

 

2. Quantity ...There's just too much nowadays. It started in 99, when wwf where doing insanely good in 98 and they wanted to milk that, by putting on more weekly shows. They added SD! and Sunday Night Heat. plus they had there B/C shows on top of that

 

And the fact that we get spraied with countless of ppv's. It's hard to keep track and find the time to watch it all.

 

If they cut 50% of their crappy shows. it would be easier to absorb it all. But they won't. Because they use so much on entrance sets etc, that they need the money

 

3. Rookies ...The rookies nowadays are all crap, with a few exceptions. And sometimes I feel like they all look the fucking same. trunks and goodlooking abs and that's it, but they're tremendously athleticly gifted but they lack the "it" factor.

But that's the culture of today. You either become a mega star in a cople of months or we'll move on. aka microwave society

 

 

You got a guy like cm who's a throwback wrestler to the bone. We saw 100s of these in the 80s and 90s. A guy that just understands how the business works and has worked his ass off to get where he's at.

 

 

WWE/and the other feds might as well adjust and accept that the business are competing against so many other things nowadays.

 

 

Regarding torrent site. Sure they're affected by it, but that dosen't justify what they're putting on tv.

[ColinBollocks]

That's my problem with the obsession with turning John Cena. I think it was DA MELTZ who pointed out that the "Turn Cena" obsessives have now created a situation where it'd be pointless to turn Cena, because while the kids would boo him the grown ups would start cheering him because it's want they wanted for ages and all that kind of jazz.

Yeah but if it attracts money/fans back to your product, then it's worth a punt. Really it's just a switch on what they do now (kids cheer him, blokes boo him) but with a lot of flexibility and potential. They should only turn him when they have a guy ready to fill the Cena void though.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I think a Cena heel turn now would be hot shotting and a mistake. People compare him to Hulk Hogan, but there really is no comparison when he turned. Hogan was taking time off to film movies in 1996. Hogan wasnt doing house shows. WCW had Randy Savage who was an equal to Hogan's drawing ability at the time, WCW had Sting, Lex Luger, Flair, The Giant, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall and the ability to pick talent from the WWF if they paid the right price. Hogan wasnt as important to WCW at the time than Cena is now. John Cena and The Miz did a sell out arena the other night for a house show. WWE rarely does that. For all the talk of "Mysterio sells merch, Punk's stuff is going off the shelves", Cena destroys these when it comes to what he sells. He doesnt just sell a nice t-shirt or a mask like the rest of them do. He sells shirts, kids costumes, DVD's, caps, foam hands, pencil cases. He brings in advertisers, he makes a difference to the attendance if he's doing local publicity in the town, some the sponsorship deals WWE has has him plastered all over them. I dont think there has ever been a point in modern US wrestling history where the gap between the top star and the next star was so far apart. I think turning him now would be the worst time ever to do it.

 

Sure Cena turning would probably create interest for a few weeks, but who would he go up against? I've seen enough CM Punk vs Cena to last me a lifetime, so would a heel Cena vs babyface Punk be a fresh match? Not for me. I think a Cena heel turn would go flat in a few months, in the style of how Austins did.

[The Total Package]

I'm fairly certain what was an 8.0 then, wouldn't be an 8.0 now because of change in the way they measure the ratings. Or something.

 

Im sure that the format in how ratings are messured has changed some what since them days, but theirs no denying if I was somehow running the Attitude Era in some parallel universe along side the PG/Cena Era that it would get alteast double in the ratings, using whatever format they are using now.

 

When The Rock or Austin show up, the ratings/PPV numbers jump up big time, so some of the casual wrestling fans are still there, they just dont care about the current product/wrestlers.

 

Another problem in WWE right now is the supporting cast aka mid carders, CM Punk went from Cena to TripleH/Nash, lets say those two legends werent there, who else could you put in a program with Punk that would keep things interesting? it would be a problem.

[Vito]

I don't think that the casual fans have disappeared at all, in fact the casual fans have now become the majority. Diehard fans who've been watching wrestling religiously since the nineties, eighties or even seventies are the minority now, the young kids in the audience at Raw every week decked out in John Cena merchandise are the new fickle casuals who'd probably stop watching if Cena decided to take some time off. Years ago Vince made a decision to deliberately alienate and drive away the lifelong loyal wrestling fans and catered his product towards the casual audience with crappy unrelatable characters and the kind of awful storylines that even Hollyoaks would reject, the reason the companies PPV numbers are dwindling is because the vast majority of people who'd watch the shows and buy the PPV's religiously aren't watching anymore. When CM Punk makes his "insider references" the live audience often barely react, probably because they've been watching the product for eighteen months and have no idea what he's talking about, hardcore fans on the Internet jizz themselves and talk about Punk being "the new Austin" but the casual WWE fan doesn't give a shit about Punk and finds him "boring", they want Cena to do his "five knuckle shuffle" and the "you can't see me", they want Randy Orton RKOing people, they want Undertaker's entrance, and they want Rey Mysterio doing 619's over and over again.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I don't think that the casual fans have disappeared at all, in fact the casual fans have now become the majority.

Casual fans dont buy the PPV's. Only the diehards do. Thats the point of the thread. The fact that the only people who bought this "insider" angle with Punk and McMahon and Cena were the ones who always buy the PPV's. I.e. the hardcores. The casual fans might watch the TV, but they arent buying the PPVs.

[Vito]

Of course casuals buy the PPV's, just not in as greater numbers as the hardcore fans. I know plenty of parents who grudgingly order the WWE PPV's on Sky Box Office so that their kids can watch Cena and Mysterio.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Of course casuals buy the PPV's, just not in as greater numbers as the hardcore fans. I know plenty of parents who grudgingly order the WWE PPV's on Sky Box Office so that their kids can watch Cena and Mysterio.

Not in significant numbers they dont. Just because a few kids by the PPV doesnt hold any evidence that the casual fanbase is strong. To suggest the "casual fan in now the majority" is just wrong. In fact I dont see how you work that out at all.

[Vito]

No, of course you don't.

 

A "casual fan" is someone who dips in and out of the product, they know the main characters and probably owns a couple of shirts and have been to some shows but they don't follow it religiously, they'll watch for a few weeks then not watch again for a month then jump back in to it for a little while when something cool happens. A "hardcore fan" is someone who watches the product religiously and has been for many years, they watch the TV shows, they buy the PPV's, they read the "newz" and would probably consider themselves to be 'insiders'.

 

When I watch Raw, I don't see many hardcore fans.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

A "casual fan" is someone who dips in and out of the product, they know the main characters and probably owns a couple of shirts and have been to some shows but they don't follow it religiously, they'll watch for a few weeks then not watch again for a month then jump back in to it for a little while when something cool happens. A "hardcore fan" is someone who watches the product religiously and has been for many years, they watch the TV shows, they buy the PPV's, they read the "newz" and would probably consider themselves to be 'insiders'.

There's a difference between "newz site readerz" and "hardcore fans". Its a different thing all together. Your missing the point completely. The WWE hardcore fanbase isnt he ones who read the Observer. The hardcore fanbase is them looney's who go to the airports to get autographs or post youtube videos telling everyone they've just bought the new Santino shirt. The hardcore fanbase is the person buying every PPV, even the shit ones to the point where the big angles dont make a difference from the run of the mill ones. Thats the hardcore fanbase. The casual fanbase is the ones who used to (for example) buy Taboo Tuesday to see if Batista would referee a match and get his hands on the person he's in a hot feud with because they have faith in the product to expect a payoff worth investing the money in.

[FLips]

Vito is right. Pretty much everyone I know who still watches wrestling are casual fans. They do check online for news and such, but that comes with being a fan these days unless you're a kid.

All of them, and often myself included will watch it on and off. When stuff like CM Punk's recent rise to the top happens, people will tune in. As soon as it fizzles out they'll stop watching. I only watch the highlights of the main shows now, and didn't watch Smackdown at all for a good few months.

[Vito]

Perhaps we should all go to a show and poll the audience to see where on the wrestling fan spectrum the majority of the audience are, at least then the "there are no casuals anymore" claim can be proven rather than just assumed.

 

I've said time and time again that the vast majority of the WWE's live audience go just to see the Cena's, Mysterio's and Orton's. It's like going to a concert just to hear one song you like, that's the audience that Vince wanted and evidently that's the audience he's now got.

[ColinBollocks]

I think a Cena heel turn now would be hot shotting and a mistake. People compare him to Hulk Hogan, but there really is no comparison when he turned. Hogan was taking time off to film movies in 1996. Hogan wasnt doing house shows. WCW had Randy Savage who was an equal to Hogan's drawing ability at the time, WCW had Sting, Lex Luger, Flair, The Giant, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall and the ability to pick talent from the WWF if they paid the right price. Hogan wasnt as important to WCW at the time than Cena is now. John Cena and The Miz did a sell out arena the other night for a house show. WWE rarely does that. For all the talk of "Mysterio sells merch, Punk's stuff is going off the shelves", Cena destroys these when it comes to what he sells. He doesnt just sell a nice t-shirt or a mask like the rest of them do. He sells shirts, kids costumes, DVD's, caps, foam hands, pencil cases. He brings in advertisers, he makes a difference to the attendance if he's doing local publicity in the town, some the sponsorship deals WWE has has him plastered all over them. I dont think there has ever been a point in modern US wrestling history where the gap between the top star and the next star was so far apart. I think turning him now would be the worst time ever to do it.

 

Sure Cena turning would probably create interest for a few weeks, but who would he go up against? I've seen enough CM Punk vs Cena to last me a lifetime, so would a heel Cena vs babyface Punk be a fresh match? Not for me. I think a Cena heel turn would go flat in a few months, in the style of how Austins did.

As I said, I agree WWE should get somebody ready first before they turn Cena. To do so would be foolish, in the manner they did with Austin, he had no face ready to go head to head with him. In theory, the Cena turn means you have at least a top face and top heel (as well as Randy Orton).

 

Yes Cena sells a lot of stuff, but WWEs numbers are falling yearly with Cena as the face of the company. Of course, it's not all Cena's fault (he's just doing what they tell him) but numbers aren't even steady with him playing Hogan.

 

I was in your camp a few months ago, believing turning Cena is pointless given the merch etc he sells. But with the state of WWE right now, maybe it needs drastic measures. They can only cut so many staff before they need to address the key revenue streams of their model.

 

When it comes down to it, the 'money market' aren't buying Cena, for whatever reason. The current audience is though, so it depends on whether they want to take a risk.

[Magnum]

Sure Cena turning would probably create interest for a few weeks, but who would he go up against? I've seen enough CM Punk vs Cena to last me a lifetime, so would a heel Cena vs babyface Punk be a fresh match? Not for me. I think a Cena heel turn would go flat in a few months, in the style of how Austins did.

 

Don't you have exactly the same problem on the other side of things though? There's very few credible heel opponents left for Cena these days, and he's 'overcome the odds' so many times over the last 6/7 years that it's impossible to buy him as an underdog anymore. The Punk feud has been intriguing because of the variables, but I'm struggling to think of other interesting feuds Cena's had over the last few years. The Nexus one was shot to shit as soon as he tapped Wade Barrett at Summerslam, and the Miz was such a lightweight Wrestlemania opponent that they had to build the match around his disagreements with the guest referee.

 

While I accept the commercial reasons for keeping him as the company's top face (and btw, I wouldn't turn him until at least Wrestlemania), it's inextricable from the loss of the casual fan because his omnipresence playing the same character in the same role creates the appearance of a holding pattern. Lapsed/casual fans may have dipped in and out of the programming over the years with those angles you mentioned in the hope of seeing a change in direction (similar to what we saw around 1997), but the emphasis on always having babyface Cena on top and his sheer visibility negates the appearance of any potential change. In short, I don't think it's possible to have their cake and eat it when it comes to Cena - they can have all the revenue they make from the brightly coloured shit he sells to kids, but there's not a hope in hell of getting that lapsed audience you allude to in the OP back while he's still playing the clean-cut hero.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Don't you have exactly the same problem on the other side of things though?

Yes, definitely, and I'm all for a heel turn if there's someone for him to go against. If they had a Batista or a Brock Lesnar or a Rock (hmmmm), then definitely. But at the minute, the roster is so thin on both sides. As much as I like them as individuals, I'd rather not watch another Orton or Punk vs Cena match anytime soon. I just find the last thing they need at the minute is more damage to the potential to draw.