RIOT!

[bobbins]

*stands and applauds Whiskey1's post*

 

They are like this because they are uneducated, badly brought up and generally moronic people, not because they are poor souls that were treated like scum once.

"Once"? I'm talking about a lifetime of being surrounded by this behaviour from family members, peers and neighbours. You think that has no effect? You think moral guidance is beamed down from God's mouth to a child's brain? You don't think being badly educated and badly brought up constitutes being treated like scum?

 

Bloody hell, have you ever left the house? Of course they can.

 

Last year a group of 11 year olds killed an innocent man in a street very close to mine just because he refused to go in the shop and get them alcohol. Are you really suggesting they did it because they 'didn't know better'? Scum is scum, age doesn't have to come into play.

I'm not saying they didn't know better, but violence is learned behaviour. If scum is scum, and it's entirely an individual choice to become scum, they why does that sort of thing never happen in rich areas or from middle-class kids? That's got to be a massive fucking coincidence that every single recorded incident of this nature has happened in poor, deprived areas.

[King Pitcos]

Your dismissal of people as simply 'scum' or 'shit', purely based on the fact that they come from poor families, in a deprived area, with poor education and no employment opportunities is frankly disgusting.

I don't think you read his post. His dismissal of them as shit and scum was based on something different than what you've said there, wasn't it? It was based on them living off crime and terrorising real people.

 

 

So you wouldn't agree that if you were brought up in an area rife with crime and poverty, with shit schools and no jobs, you wouldn't be slightly more likely to be involved in crime? I don't know any reasonable person could not see this.

It doesn't excuse anything, though. "I know he did all that robbing and drug dealing, but it's not his fault, he's just a poor boy from a poor family!" How exactly do you spare him his life from this monstrosity if you don't hold criminals accountable for their own actions?

[Jas]

I like to tell myself that the rioting in Enfield Town is merely a re-enactment of the riot scene in Police Academy, in memory of good old Hightower.

 

 

 

We need some citizens on patrol, what's this guy upto?

 

[spurs 4 life]

Bobbins and Whiskey1...

 

First and foremost don't you want to protect the innocent people in these poor areas? So often i hear arguments similar to your own and you totally ignore the millions of people who live in these poor areas, have that same poor education and limited opportunities although in a place like Tottenham i don't agree with that last part and have to put up with this crap.

 

You two have made these posts defending actions and you have defended them make no mistake, by making excuses for them your defending them and yet you forget that people who live in the same horrible place as these criminals have lost their homes, possesions and business'.

 

If you want to talk about how to stop this happening forever well thats a 20 year plan which quite frankly if i was still a resident i'd be horrified by. If however you want an immediate clean up followed by your ideas then maybe i'd agree more.

 

There will always be criminals and there will always be areas more deprived than others, that's life but that doesn't give anyone the excuse to show the utter disregard for lives that i have witnessed in Tottenham and Edmonton.

 

I don't pretend to have the answers i just know that after a long time living amongst it, i want more police there to protect people and i want these gangs dealt with by whatever means needed as long as it stops innocent people getting hurt.

 

Of course Tottenham like many other areas needs drastic investment of both money and time but first and foremost the streets needed to be cleaned up so law abiding people can walk them without fear. Whilst the gangs rule Tottenham will never improve.

[spurs 4 life]

I don't think you read his post. His dismissal of them as shit and scum was based on something different than what you've said there, wasn't it? It was based on them living off crime and terrorising real people.

 

The fact that i have said i have lived in the very same area and have no qualifications numerous times in this thread has totally missed his moral crusade by. How can i judge people on where they're from or their education when i'm one of them?

[Ross]

Bobbins and Whiskey1...

 

First and foremost don't you want to protect the innocent people in these poor areas? So often i hear arguments similar to your own and you totally ignore the millions of people who live in these poor areas, have that same poor education and limited opportunities although in a place like Tottenham i don't agree with that last part and have to put up with this crap.

 

You two have made these posts defending actions and you have defended them make no mistake, by making excuses for them your defending them and yet you forget that people who live in the same horrible place as these criminals have lost their homes, possesions and business'.

 

If you want to talk about how to stop this happening forever well thats a 20 year plan which quite frankly if i was still a resident i'd be horrified by. If however you want an immediate clean up followed by your ideas then maybe i'd agree more.

 

There will always be criminals and there will always be areas more deprived than others, that's life but that doesn't give anyone the excuse to show the utter disregard for lives that i have witnessed in Tottenham and Edmonton.

 

I don't pretend to have the answers i just know that after a long time living amongst it, i want more police there to protect people and i want these gangs dealt with by whatever means needed as long as it stops innocent people getting hurt.

 

Of course Tottenham like many other areas needs drastic investment of both money and time but first and foremost the streets needed to be cleaned up so law abiding people can walk them without fear. Whilst the gangs rule Tottenham will never improve.

 

You'll never solve the problems unless you tackle the causes. I don't want anyone getting hurt, but you can't protect anyone by simply ignoring others.

[wolveswrestling]

Just watched the video on sky of the looting of a jb's store, why no one is being arrested I don't know, black and white people. I worry about going back for an extra "free"cup of tea of asda and not being caught.

[Ross]

I don't think you read his post. His dismissal of them as shit and scum was based on something different than what you've said there, wasn't it? It was based on them living off crime and terrorising real people.

 

 

 

It doesn't excuse anything, though. "I know he did all that robbing and drug dealing, but it's not his fault, he's just a poor boy from a poor family!" How exactly do you spare him his life from this monstrosity if you don't hold criminals accountable for their own actions?

 

But you are MORE LIKELY to commit crime if you come from this background. This has been proven many many many times over.

 

It wasn't based on the fact that they come from poor families, it's based on behaviour.

 

And where does this behaviour come from? Magic? The devil?

Edited August 7, 2011 by Whiskey1

[Chris B]

But you are MORE LIKELY to commit crime if you come from this background. This has been proven many many many times over.

 

Yes, this. Absolutely this.

 

The idea that there are reasons for behaviour isn't the same thing as saying there are excuses for it. It's about trying to identify the root problems and deal with them, in order that they occur less often in future.

[The King Of Swing]

As long as there is still a gang culture there is simply no point in attempting to tackle the root causes, break up the gangs and bang up the ring leaders and then you can start to get to the root of the problems.

 

Waving your arms about crying about the injustice of being stuck in a poor area is no better then writing everyone off as scum.

[King Pitcos]

But you are MORE LIKELY to commit crime if you come from this background.

Why does that excuse it? "Poor family = allowed to commit crime" is no less unhelpful to solving the problem than the "send them all back to Jamaica" mindset. It's that sort of softly-softly nonsense that makes them feel so untouchable when out on the rob and gets them so shocked and angry when some actual policing is done.

[spurs 4 life]

You'll never solve the problems unless you tackle the causes. I don't want anyone getting hurt, but you can't protect anyone by simply ignoring others.

 

You have insulted me, made false accusations so the least you can do is answer my points.

 

You use poverty as an excuse for people to have no respect for human life. How would you make Tottenham safe for the thousands of law abiding people in the short to medium term? That would be a start.

[Tommy!]

I can understand the concept that the root problem of a social spiral of upbringing and society perpetuates out the excess of crime in some form.

However If we take a hypothetical urban setting which is experiencing some kind of social degeneration. I can see why people may turn to some crime, even though it doesn't in my opinion excuse it at any level, some people won't commit crime or join a "gang culture" or whatever will they, its not every one.

 

Not every one in the same setting will take it the same way, and those who have taken to crimes and violence are essentially making life hell for people in the same situation as them, people who live in the same community and face the same social issues. So there must be an element of personal responsibility, otherwise every single person would be involved in it. I know some people who have worked hard to be an upstanding person despite the situation they find them selves in from birth, and like wise they know people who use that same situation as an excuse for never trying.

 

I'm not sure if that makes too much sense, I am rubbish at writing out these kind of things.

 

If I may take a completely out of context quote from Death Wish and force it in here to try and highlight an element of my comment above.

 

Sam Kreutzer: You know, decent people are going to have to work here and live somewhere else.

Paul Kersey: By "decent people," you mean people who can afford to live somewhere else.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Tommy!

[Van Dammer]

"Once"? I'm talking about a lifetime of being surrounded by this behaviour from family members, peers and neighbours. You think that has no effect? You think moral guidance is beamed down from God's mouth to a child's brain? You don't think being badly educated and badly brought up constitutes being treated like scum?

 

Yeah so all the people that are brought up in the same situations that make a good and honest life for themselves are probably the exception that proves your rule then?

 

The morals of life arent some complex formula that need to be educated into somebody are they? Dont steal, dont kill, dont stab, dont shoot and dont deal drugs are hardly what I was told about in assembly in Red Class.

[Chris B]

Why does that excuse it?

 

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen that he's said that it 'excuses it' anywhere.