Cruiserweight Title

[Dirty Eddie]

Greg Dyke killed the UK scene, not Vince McMahon. He didn't like wrestling, and chucked it off the channel even though it still got decent ratings. British wrestling failed to then change, as Ian has said, and failed to get tv elsewhere whilst the WWF on Sky went from strength to strength.

 

It's impossible to say what might have happened had the WWF never made it to these shores. You just don't know.

 

What if Dyke had shit-canned wrestling, and Sky had picked it up seeing it as a cheap ratings-grabber. They might have thrown a load of money at it, just like they did with Darts, which was also canned by the BBC. That turned out to be a smart move.

 

Without the WWF on the scene it's impossible to know really.

[Loki]

We're talking about what actually happened though, and that's what happened. Saying McMahon killed the British wrestling scene just doesn't add up.

[Keith Houchen]

Darts is still on the BBC, it didn't get canned. The first PDC breakaway was shown in ITV.

[PowerButchi]

Indeed. The WDC Lada Masters were on Anglia, and BBC still show the BDO Worlds and limited coverage of the Masters.

[Dirty Eddie]

Darts is still on the BBC, it didn't get canned. The first PDC breakaway was shown in ITV.

 

 

from wiki...

 

"darts coverage expanded with many major tournaments appearing on both ITV and BBC through the 1970s and early 1980s, but the cancellation of ITV's World of Sport show in 1985 meant they had to cut back on darts coverage but despite this they still showed the World Masters until 1988. The BBC also cut back on their coverage to the extent that one major event was still broadcast on either channel by 1988

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Before WWF came along, audiences still went to shows and fans still watched on TV. Then WWF came along and they all wandered off. The WWF pretty much killed off the older uk wrestling fans, who at the time despised the showy American crap. Kids loved it and got to watch it on TV, but without the telly to build up local Stars, the older uk fans tuned out forever, and the kids had to make do with a WWF tour once a year.

Thats how television and entertainment works. Something better came along and left them in the dirt. There is no going back when you see something better. Plenty of things tried to knock Friends off their perch in the United States when that was popular. The Simpsons didnt die on its arse when Family Guy became massive. They were still on telly for years before it got put out of its misery by Dyke. Just nobody was watching.

 

Surely we are in agreement then? That's what this discussion is about; whether the WWF means more people watch live wrestling or less, and in the UK, since they came along, the answer is much less.

True. I never said it wasnt. What I am saying is the WWF made British wrestling look bad. WWF looked great and British wrestling was exposed for the outdated blokes in flatcaps style of entertainment which was going to die on its arse eventually anyway.

 

You said if the WWF ran shows every week then the audiences wouldn't have died off. Completely correct. But the WWF didn't run shows every week, so the audience (live draws) DID fall off.

That isnt my argument, though. Of course it fell off. I'm saying the audience was there for wrestling in the late 80s if WWF wanted to exploit it (which it obviously couldnt because of the sheer amount of shows they ran in North America). The audience wasnt there for British wrestling because it had already been shown up.

[Keith Houchen]

So from around 1988 to 2001 (save for one event a year on the BBC) all the UK Darts coverage was on Sky, after both the BBC and ITV decided to cut right back.

 

They kept things going nicely and kept it popular, so eventually the BBC figured there was enough of an audience to bring it back.

No, that's not really true as they didn't stop showing, or canned, Darts, as you claimed. Plus the even they showed was, in that time, the "Wrestlemania" of Darts.

 

Anyways, Darts and Cruiserweights? I don't think so.

[Dirty Eddie]

True. I never said it wasnt. What I am saying is the WWF made British wrestling look bad. WWF looked great and British wrestling was exposed for the outdated blokes in flatcaps style of entertainment which was going to die on its arse eventually anyway.

 

 

That isnt my argument, though. Of course it fell off. I'm saying the audience was there for wrestling in the late 80s if WWF wanted to exploit it (which it obviously couldnt because of the sheer amount of shows they ran in North America). The audience wasnt there for British wrestling because it had already been shown up.

 

 

OK, this seems to be becoming a circular argument.

 

I entirely agree that the dull, old-looking UK wrestling looked shit compared to the WWF. A shinier, more exciting looking promotion came along and took it's spot. In doing that though, the WWF made all our stuff look bad, then only popped over here once a year. That meant while there were still lots of wrestling fans, they only wanted to see the US stuff, so our domestic scene died a death.

 

It certainly all looked better and more exciting, but the quality of wrestling wasn't really better, just a very different style. Kids loved the shiny, over-the-top WWF, a lot of adults preferred the grittier UK stuff.

[Dirty Eddie]

No, that's not really true as they didn't stop showing, or canned, Darts, as you claimed. Plus the even they showed was, in that time, the "Wrestlemania" of Darts.

 

Anyways, Darts and Cruiserweights? I don't think so.

 

 

Well, by 1988 between the BBC and ITV, just the one event a year was shown, so one of them did 'can' darts, for a while. Either way, showing one big event a year is a considerable downsizing from weekly coverage isn't it! The point was that both the BBC and ITV decided it wasn't really worth devoting much time too, but Sky picked it up and did very well with it.

 

We haven't been talking about Cruiserweights for ages.

[PowerButchi]

ITV still shown darts on a regional basis though. Again, the first PDC event (The WDC Lada Masters) was shown on Anglia, which of course was an ITV region.

[Keith Houchen]

Well, by 1988 between the BBC and ITV, just the one event a year was shown, so one of them did 'can' darts, for a while.

And it wasn't the BBC, as you wrongly claimed

Either way, showing one big event a year is a considerable downsizing from weekly coverage isn't it! The point was that both the BBC and ITV decided it wasn't really worth devoting much time too, but Sky picked it up and did very well with it.

That isn't how things happened though, as Darts wasn't on tv every week, unless you count Bullseye, which you don't. Maybe once a month but even then it would have been a 10 minute segment on WOS.

 

The point I'm debating is where you said the BBC canned Darts, they didn't.

 

The Sky thing is a different matter as well, it wasn't Sky who revolutionised Darts, it was Barry Hearn leading the charge. Funnily enough, when Sky saw an opportunity to interject a bit of Sports Entertainment into it, that's when it exploded.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

It certainly all looked better and more exciting, but the quality of wrestling wasn't really better, just a very different style. Kids loved the shiny, over-the-top WWF, a lot of adults preferred the grittier UK stuff.

Adults loved the WWF. Of course they did. As a matter of fact, it wasnt the kids turning off the British wrestling show. It was everyone turning off British Wrestling. WWF was massive in the 80s. Kids and adults were into it. You only have to look into the crowds of the WWF PPV's. You dont get lead in special to Saturday Night Live on NBC if your aiming fully at kids. Adults prefered the WWF. Everyone did. Arnie and Stallone wouldnt have looked out of place on WWF TV in the 80s. And to say the wrestling was better depends on your tastes. Its been proven since the days of Bruno Sammartino and even before, people prefer occassion and spectical over two men grappling. If your talking about casual viewers your wrong. If your talking about people like Kenny McBride, well I imagine your right. But we all know what he's into*

 

*Just kidding. Might as well lighten the mood up.

[Dirty Eddie]

The point I'm debating is where you said the BBC canned Darts, they didn't.

Ok, fair enough. Sorry, my mistake.

 

ITV did though, right. And essentially, the BBC stopped showing everything other than the one "World Championships" event a year. That's still considerably down from two channels showing semi-regular coverage throughout the year.

 

 

Anyway, getting very boring this so i'll stop talking about Darts now.

 

 

Ian...

 

Virtually everyone who I've come into contact with that used to watch the old WOS British Wrestling (I'm talking, dad, uncles, people I have worked with, etc...) though that the WWF stuff was a load of old shite. I'm sure they managed to put up with taking their kids to a WWF show at Wembly Arena once a year, but they didn't like the WWF like they used to enjoy the British stuff.

[Keith Houchen]

Ok, fair enough. Sorry, my mistake.

Fair play to you,

ITV did though, right. And essentially, the BBC stopped showing everything other than the one "World Championships" event a year. That's still considerably down from two channels showing semi-regular coverage throughout the year.

Hmm, I'd say that was a touch misleading. Darts wasn't on as much as, say Snooker. The semi regular coverage was sporadic at best. Of the "Majors" at the time, there were only three or four and you'd very rarely get the first few rounds on the box. Trust me, as someone who played on the circuit at the time, there was always a bigger incentive to get through to the televised rounds than a cash incentive! (Once you got on the box, you could pretty much double your fee for exhibition nights)

 

 

Anyway, getting very boring this so i'll stop talking about Darts now.

Wash your mouth out, young man. It is the sport of KINGS, Eddie, KINGS!

[Dirty Eddie]

Ah, I see why you know your shit when it comes to the old darts game ("thirty years in the game, man and boy").

 

I was just using it as an example of a possible option for UK wrestling, had the WWF stuff not moved over here and had Dyke still cancelled WOS. It somewhat fell out of favour on the BBC and ITV and Sky picked up the slack and did well. Anyway, i said I'd stop talking about it, dammit!