Magnum Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It's a performance art, surely? Certainly in terms of stuff like Lucha Libre, anyway. Â Sure, it's hardly Picasso or the Bolshoi, but I don't think the category of 'art' is particularly exclusive or aspirational these days anyway, not when clowns like that silly pisshead bint Emin can win awards for soiled bedsheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It's no more art than porn really, porn's people fucking, wrestling's people pretending to fight, I can't in good faith describe it as art. Tracey Emin's work doesn't speak to me, but plenty who know about these things see what she's saying, some don't, it's borderline and controversial and that's part of it's appeal to some. But wrestling? It's bloke's pretending to fight, sorry, not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melina_mma Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 trying to keep this from becoming yet another Benoit thread i'm going to say Bret v Davey Boy from 92, yes thats right i'm taking on the holy grail for british wrestling fans here! After hearing Davey Boy was extrememly hungover and forgot the entire match and Bret had to carry him through it, watch the match with that in mind and you can clearly see thats the case  Doesnt take anything away from the momment at the end tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted July 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well, it's already been diverted from the Benoit discussion, but nevertheless Kiffy seems to be hellbent on taking this thread off on some kind of tangent, and using really rubbish arguments to do it.... Â For me, I actually find it more impressive when you find out that it turns out one of the wrestlers was fucked off their face for a match and they managed to hold it down enough to turn out a decent performance. Just a hangover though, you get no points for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It's no more art than porn really, porn's people fucking, wrestling's people pretending to fight, I can't in good faith describe it as art. Tracey Emin's work doesn't speak to me, but plenty who know about these things see what she's saying, some don't, it's borderline and controversial and that's part of it's appeal to some. But wrestling? It's bloke's pretending to fight, sorry, not buying it. Â Would you count any physical performance as art? You mentioned it as on a par with figure skating before, what about something like ballet? If ballet is art, then I think there's an argument that the best wrestling matches are too - telling a story through the body, requiring physical mastery and expert timing to pull off the moves, and engaging the audience at the same time, takes a hell of a lot more skill and craft than what Tracy Emin does. Â I don't really get the comparison with porn, because porn is people actually fucking, whereas wrestling is about creating the illusion of a fight and a morality play at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond_dust Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm going to take the unpopular view here. Benoit for all his life was classed as a nice guy by 90% of people who knew him. Yes Benoit is a murderer and theres no excuse to just let it go, BUT lets not forget after the murders the autopsy showed he was not mentally well. What caused it? Years of diving on his head & taking chair shots to entertain the fans in addition to the years of drug abuse to make himself look and feel better to carry on doing it. I don't think its right to switch off the Benoit matches because you can't watch them when us fans, the promoters & the whole business are just as responsible for encouraging Benoit to become what he did. Maybe we should all define a quality match from now on as some scrawny kid not putting any effort in because the bumps arent doing him any damage so he wont get addicted to drugs and destroy his brain either way & end up like Benoit. Can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JohnnyChimpo Posted July 5, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted July 5, 2011 Maybe we should all define a quality match from now on as some scrawny kid not putting any effort in because the bumps arent doing him any damage so he wont get addicted to drugs and destroy his brain either way & end up like Benoit. Can't have it both ways. Except that it doesnt have to be one extreme or the other. There can be a middle ground. You can have people wrestle a safer style, ala John Cena, Randy Orton, The Rock, Triple H etc. I dont recall ever seeing any of the aforementioned names doing diving headbutts from the top of a steel cage. Â I know people have tried to turn the discussion away from Benoit, but its a thread about things that are tainted in wrestling, so its going to be nigh on impossible to avoid him, so fuck it; I'm of the opinion that you cant separate "Benoit: The Wrestler", from "Benoit: The Man." None of the other examples that Kiffy (or others in the past) have suggested even come close. You can watch a Roman Polanski film, and separate his "art" from sodomizing a minor because you know that his style of direction has zero implication on what he did with that minor. You can listen to a Gary Glitter CD, and know that his straining vocal chords didnt cause him to become a kiddie fiddler. However, Benoit's wrestling style is ultimately what lead to him killing his family. Every suicide dive, every kamikaze headbutt, every unprotected chairshot etc has a direct connection to his crime. Benoit the wrestler is so intrinsically linked to Benoit the man, that they cannot be separated. Â Thats not to say someone shouldn't watch his matches, if they chose to do so, fair enough. But you cant pretend to take the moral high ground of "I'm capable of separating the two". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I'm not taking the moral high ground with it, far from it. Just don't find his actions make any difference to his matches. Glitter's music did fund his paedophilia mind, and polanski's films allowed him the funding to avoid justice for said minor sodomising, so they both helped them be what they are and were, even if in a slightly less direct way than benoit's diving headbutts. I like dynamite kids stuff too, even though it left him in a wheelchair. Hell every eddy match was another few pain pills (up till he got clean, apparently) a bit more roids, heart a bit closer to going pop, granted he didn't kill anyone but each match was a little helping hand along the way to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Shakespeare probably shagged thirteen year olds as well, like Polanski and Glitter.* In Shakey's time, like in seventies Hollywood, it didn't have the same stigma it does today. Â I think the Nexus debut is a bit of a weird one -- right now it seems tainted but in five or ten years time, if Wade Barrett or Justin Gabriel are top stars, it'll always be a massive part of their history to look back on. I think once we're a bit further removed from its wet fart conclusion, it'll be remembered more as such an explosive introduction. Â Similar to that, Kofi Kingston boom dropping Randy Orton through the table at MSG. Seemed like it was a vital element in Kofi's imminent rise to the top, now that feud is a reminder of Kofi not making it. If and when he does, though, that night will always be on his DVDs and career highlights montages. Â Â Â Â *And Shakespeare's work is highly acclaimed in some circles but has always bored normal people, like Benoit's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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