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Misused wrestlers


King Pitcos

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I know he was there or thereabouts for a while in 1987/88, but it's amazing how Ted Dibiase was never quite a main eventer. I wonder if that was due to his size? Because he certainly had all the tools.

I'd say he was. He main-evented WrestleMania, SummerSlam and Survivor Series in '88, and that's pretty much the best you could hope for back then before they cycled in a new baddie for Hogan. He was meant to win the title at WrestleMania IV as well, wasn't he, until Honky Tonk Man refused to lose the Intercontinental to Savage?

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Why does he need to go to Japan? He doesn't. He needs to be used effectively. Like Pity said, he was mis-used as WWE champion. They didn't need another self-important egotistical heel as world champ, but the goofy, cocky jock character would've been refreshing at the top of the card.

 

I get all of that, but suddenly changing the way they booked him wouldn't change his audience perception. If he was suddenly pushed overnight, people would remember him being Michael Cole's joke lackey, and Evan Bourne making him look like a fool. 6-12 months away would give him the opportunity to come back fresh, and you know, he might learn a few things...

 

That's not the argument though is it? Who was misused has no reflection on who can wrestle but was shit on. Jack Swagger (while not a unique character, was at least unique at that time) was misused because he was almost repackaged and ultimately failed in his new role. Had he been kept with the 'jock' character it was then a sink or swim situation, had he 'sank' it couldn't be technically classed as misused as he hasn't deviated from what 'got him to the dance' in the first place. Pushed too soon or being not quite there would be a more than adequate summing up.

 

By that logic Matt Bloom was also misused as he didn't 'make it' in the WWE but is a 'better wrestler now'. He was limited back then (I liked the guy but haven't seen anything since he left) but wouldn't suddenly become Steve Austin overnight because he was away for 6 months and learnt a few new movez!

 

Swagger's character which was deemed worthy of a World Title run was changed. His moves were the same, but he was misused cos in HIS moment they changed his character. Between the Ringmaster and Stone Cold, Austin was still on TV and got over cos they ran with HIS character, (sure he was forced to tweak his moves due to circumstance) but his character remained the same with room for evolving. He got over due to character (which had been maintained) not cos he learnt to add a spinebuster to his repotoire or had the benefit of being 'fresh' by taking a 'break' for 6-12 months but cos HIS character got used correctly.

 

I too have to vote Jack Swagger, if it ended up being a transitional reign anyway, why bother changing the character? See what your ready made character can do first, surely?

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Why does he need to go to Japan? He doesn't. He needs to be used effectively. Like Pity said, he was mis-used as WWE champion. They didn't need another self-important egotistical heel as world champ, but the goofy, cocky jock character would've been refreshing at the top of the card.

 

I get all of that, but suddenly changing the way they booked him wouldn't change his audience perception. If he was suddenly pushed overnight, people would remember him being Michael Cole's joke lackey, and Evan Bourne making him look like a fool. 6-12 months away would give him the opportunity to come back fresh, and you know, he might learn a few things...

Of course it would change audience perception if he was booked differently- it makes a massive difference. Remember when that guy from the APA called Bradshaw was suddenly pushed to the moon? We were treated to one of the best heel WWE Champions in the last 10 years in JBL. If booked correctly, they can turn someone who they previously made look a complete chump or jobber into an star. It has everything to do with how he was booked. Especially in the case of Swagger- someone who the audience has pretty much bought into from the off.

 

Oh of course, if he goes to Japan and 'learns a few things' then he will be a much better worker- thus changing the audiences perception. Because the WWE fans will really give a shit if Swagger took a few burning hammers in Tokyo and can now throw a lot of chops in his move repertoire. :rolleyes:

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Oh of course, if he goes to Japan and 'learns a few things' then he will be a much better worker- thus changing the audiences perception. Because the WWE fans will really give a shit if Swagger took a few burning hammers in Tokyo and can now throw a lot of chops in his move repertoire. :rolleyes:

 

I agree with your earlier points about Swagger, but this is facile and off the mark. You only have to look at the improvement in Umaga to know it's not about movez and chops.

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Umaga really refined his hard-hitting, punishing style in Japan, and he's much better off for it. If he hadn't gone there, he probably wouldn't be where he is today.

 

Sarcasm aside, it's clear working in Japan had a positive effect on his work. As for his death, not entirely sure why you've referred to that, given that it wasn't caused by his wrestling style. He wasn't a Benoit.

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i still cant believe a company like wwe that is apparently "PG" didnt get more out of colt cabana, boggles my mind to this day. having listened to an interview he did afterwards, he had so many great ideas to introduce himself. i think his style could have easily worked along the wwe style too, whil showing some flair to distinguish himself from the rest. with his stand-up comedy, road diaries dvd, podcasts and new weekly episode series, i hope the guy gets some attention from wwe again and maybe gets re-hired. generally a nice guy and passionate about this business, but also willing to make things happen for himself (like ryder has been doing with his videos).

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Umaga really refined his hard-hitting, punishing style in Japan, and he's much better off for it. If he hadn't gone there, he probably wouldn't be where he is today.

 

:laugh:

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I always thought they drastically dropped the ball with Tazz. He got an utterly mammoth reaction on his debut and looked good for a while after that. Then he fell away a bit, but came back incredibly strong on the back of the angle with JR and Lawler. Then he fell away again, but then his stuff with Austin during the invasion gave them yet another chance to make a go of things with him. I always thought he should have won the immunity battle royal then gone on a tear, taking out everyone who had ever disrespected him, Path Of Rage style.

 

You can argue all you want that he wasn't good enough or wasn't big enough or whatever, but the fact is that the audience bought him even after he'd been booked to look shit. You don't pass up those kind of chances when they come along. The same goes for RVD. The dude was crazy hot when he came in and they pissed it away because he wasn't their style. As with everyone else in WWE for the last ten years, they didn't realise that not being the same as everyone else is THE key to becoming a legitimate money player.

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Raven during his WWF/E stay. They just didn't seem to get him. He obviously didn't conform to their usual look they want and Vince/WWE hate guys who are marks for the business.

 

Massively agree with this. Raven could have been more than just a hardcore champion (26 times) in WWE. He knew how to work a match and is a fantastic talker. Im not saying he should have been World champion but i would have at least given him the IC title and a run in a tag team with the belts.

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Over the last 10 years I'm gonna say Taz and Raven.

 

Taz came in over as fuck, beat Angle (who was on his way to the top) and then it all fizzed out shortly afterward. Raven was similar really. WWE new what they were getting with both these guys but didn't really capitalise on them. Waste.

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Raven during his WWF/E stay. They just didn't seem to get him. He obviously didn't conform to their usual look they want and Vince/WWE hate guys who are marks for the business.

 

Massively agree with this. Raven could have been more than just a hardcore champion (26 times) in WWE. He knew how to work a match and is a fantastic talker. Im not saying he should have been World champion but i would have at least given him the IC title and a run in a tag team with the belts.

 

I thought it was well-documented that Vince hated Raven/Johnny Polo for having a bad influence on Shane? It doesn't bode well for anyone's career when the boss of the promotion angrily asks who the fuck hired him.

 

As to his abilities, I have to say that whilst I enjoyed some of his work, I think Raven is a case of talking a better game than actually playing it. A lot of the stuff he talks about, psychologywise, makes perfect sense - and he then proceeds to completely belie it with his matches. I'm surprised anyone bought the Evenflow at all as a finisher, given how much he killed it.

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Raven during his WWF/E stay. They just didn't seem to get him. He obviously didn't conform to their usual look they want and Vince/WWE hate guys who are marks for the business.

 

Massively agree with this. Raven could have been more than just a hardcore champion (26 times) in WWE. He knew how to work a match and is a fantastic talker. Im not saying he should have been World champion but i would have at least given him the IC title and a run in a tag team with the belts.

 

 

As to his abilities, I have to say that whilst I enjoyed some of his work, I think Raven is a case of talking a better game than actually playing it. A lot of the stuff he talks about, psychologywise, makes perfect sense - and he then proceeds to completely belie it with his matches. I'm surprised anyone bought the Evenflow at all as a finisher, given how much he killed it.

I'm with the earlier posters who mentioned him, he had the talent and character to at least expect to be mixing it with the IC title level guys in the WWF imo. I remember when we were all second guessing his arrival, there were a lot of rumours that he would start off with a bang and be put in a programme with the Undertaker like Foley 4 years earlier. Whilst no-one's saying he was big-league main event material, the idea that he'd be positioned closer to the top of the card than the bottom wasn't particularly outlandish. Politics aside, I think it's fair to say he was misused.

 

I'm intrigued by the 'words contradicting his matches' comment though, do you mean what he said in promos, or what he said in shoot interviews? I would say that in terms of character, they should have pushed the 'enjoying pain' thing more, like they were when he arrived in WCW and his feud with Benoit. Overall though, I felt his style was entirely consistant with his persona, and provided a lot of entertainment and variety.

 

Us Raven fans can't really complain because we got a good year out of him in WCW from late 97 to late 98, but I sometimes wonder what might have been if he'd signed with the WWF in 1997. I think he'd have been a great fit in the Attitude Era with his mike skills and gimmick that was a bit more relevant then than it was by late 2000.

 

I don't understand the issue with his finisher also. It was probably the best DDT after Jake and AA, why would it not be credible? I don't think it's relevant to WCW or WWF whether he needed to use it 2 or 3 times, or onto plunder to score a win in ECW, different rules apply. It was distinctive enough to separate it from the standard DDTs that were often used as transitional moves around that period, and It was probably my favourite finisher around the time.

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Was talking about his shoot interviews, where he went into great detail as to how to structure matches, the importance of pacing and selling, the importance of character and so on. From what I've seen of his matches, in all three major promotions, that all went to pot.

 

The issue with his finisher is simple; if you're fine with him having to use it several times every match, fair play to you, but it just came across as an incredibly weak move. Didn't strike me as particularly distinctive from the "transitional DDTs" as you put it, because it pretty much was a transitional move.

 

His promos were excellent in terms of content and setting, but his delivery was atrocious in ECW - I understand he was supposed to be a mumbling grunger, but there's mumbling and then there's mumbling like you're not entirely sure of what you're saying. His later stuff was much, much better.

 

This all sounds very damning of him, but I did think he was worth a punt, and that WWE could've done better by putting him in the IC scene rather than just batting him about in the Hardcore division.

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