Paid Members Surf Digby Posted May 17, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2011 Family friendly though it may be, but the vast majority of All Star workers don't look weak. This may be because they don't venture very far into the American kick-punch style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrington Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 My work computer wont allow me to quote which is why I'm not. Johnnyboyz is right. The crowd shouldnt be told toshut up or abused as soon as the "heel" walks out. They clap because its showing repsect for someone they dont know who is there to entertain them. The heel should show them he's heel by wrestling, not immidately telling them to go to hell because thats what heels do. I'm more entertained by watching world of sport than watching WWE even though I grew up watching WWE. In fact I dont watch WWE anymore. Anytime Ive seen world of sport, the heel has got more of a reaction just by being a bit moody than most "heels" do nowadays by coming out and yelling at the crowd. They just laugh because its apart of the show, whereas back then the crowd would be really annoyed at the heel acting like a baby just because his opponent is bettering him. No one these days knows how to start the bout off like a normal wrestling match, and then gradually build up the heel act. Its either do it straight away or your a face. I dont understand where the lack of physchology came from. I think world of sport style would get over again in the UK because the crowds are so used to seeing American style rip offs that cant really do it and make it look even more fake than it does anyway, that something different (like actual wrestling) would entertain them. I remember doing a shoot takedown in a bout and it got a really good reaction. And then when I bridged out of a pin they liked it. After so much of seeing the same old shit, when they see something real they react well to it. I suppose with MMA being so big now those sort of moves would be over with the crowd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allstar69 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I think to throw a good looking punch you need to be able to throw a real punch and it seems to me like a lot of the wrestlers I have seen couldnt throw a real punch never mind a worked one. Also I think there isnt one style better then the other and to make a good wrestler you need to learn as many different styles as you can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 18, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 My work computer wont allow me to quote which is why I'm not. Johnnyboyz is right. The crowd shouldnt be told toshut up or abused as soon as the "heel" walks out. They clap because its showing repsect for someone they dont know who is there to entertain them. The heel should show them he's heel by wrestling, not immidately telling them to go to hell because thats what heels do. I'm more entertained by watching world of sport than watching WWE even though I grew up watching WWE. In fact I dont watch WWE anymore. Anytime Ive seen world of sport, the heel has got more of a reaction just by being a bit moody than most "heels" do nowadays by coming out and yelling at the crowd. They just laugh because its apart of the show, whereas back then the crowd would be really annoyed at the heel acting like a baby just because his opponent is bettering him. No one these days knows how to start the bout off like a normal wrestling match, and then gradually build up the heel act. Its either do it straight away or your a face. I dont understand where the lack of physchology came from. I think world of sport style would get over again in the UK because the crowds are so used to seeing American style rip offs that cant really do it and make it look even more fake than it does anyway, that something different (like actual wrestling) would entertain them. I remember doing a shoot takedown in a bout and it got a really good reaction. And then when I bridged out of a pin they liked it. After so much of seeing the same old shit, when they see something real they react well to it. I suppose with MMA being so big now those sort of moves would be over with the crowd  Don't agree with this. Showing you're a heel or a face right on your entrance is not the result of a lack of psychology - in this respect, the World of Sport style is a minority, and even then, WoS had guys who were clearly heels right from the beginning, like Fit Finlay, Rollerball Rocco, Kendo Nagasaki, etc. In the vast majority of pro-wrestling matches, the elaborate entrances are specifically for the purpose of telling the crowd who you are and whether or not they should like you, and therefore whether they should cheer or boo you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 That's true to an extent, but the guys you mention weren't panto villains. Finlay and Rocco were just badass motherfuckers. You could just tell by their snarling "don't fuck with me" expressions that you weren't going to like them much. Kendo was a big scary masked dude with a sword and twat for a manager. There are simple, subtle ways of getting the "right" reactions without the panto performances. Â Everything else Barrington said is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrington Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Like I said carbomb, if they were able to wrestle and get the crowd to boo them for simple things they do in the ring, then they'd be a good heel. Rocco and mcmanus etc were established as heels which is fair enough fo them to shout at the crowd, but when you're not well known you have to let the crowd know by your wrestling. What sense does it make if they clap for a wrestler after he's announced, and he walks out and tels the crowd to shut up. Everybody wants the cheers from the crowd. If they waited until they were booed before screaming at them it'd make more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Going onto the topic of psychology, I really miss the days when you see guys be heels based on what they do in the ring. Like the very subtle heelish tactics which seem to have been erroded by the WWEs hardcore era in which choking someone behind the referee's back became "the norm". Â One thing I LOVED about the Japanese wrestlers and more specifically Kobashi, was their ability to make you know who the good and bad guy was just by their actions. I mean look at Kobashi when he was on the apron in a tag. The little guy would run over, smack him off the apron cheapshot style and then run away. Kobashi would lay on the outside holding his eye, get on the apron with this "you will pay for that later" face on. It would happen when his partner was getting double teamed, with him putting one foot in the ring and pointing at his opponents. By the time he got in you wanted to see him get revenge but he never once had to go over the top to make people realise he was the "good guy". Same as KENTA is soooo good with his arrogant little man heel schtick and he doesnt even have to say anything. Â In terms of psychology I also believe that Japan has an awesome ability to make Tag Matches mean something special. For example, two guys in the ring fighting whilst their partners are on the outside trying to break up the three count. Simple things which seem lost on alot of the guys in the UK (and everywhere else for the most part). Â Going back to the original point of weak punches and kicks... I don't believe you have to shit on the integrity of British Style by making your kicks, punches and strikes look strong. I believe regardless of "style" you should ALWAYS make punches and kicks look deadly (unless you are selling the beat down from a tough match in which case make the weakness of the punches and kicks look like its due to fatigue NOT from the get go). Â At the same time, during my year training I was always told not to use many punches in a match. The rationale? If you cant knock out a guy with 10 punches in a row on the top rope, you shouldnt even be in there because the lad must be hard as nails or your punches are shit anyway! In that sense its about realism. Realistically that is the case. Thats why i love styles where you don't much but you use strikes, chops, kicks, etc Something which the average person hasnt experienced and as a result doesnt put meaning into. For example the average fan has never been legitimately kicked in the face or chopped full pelt (casuals I mean!) and as a result wont think as much of these as they would if a guy was still standing after 10 punches to the face. Â I hope this even makes sense! I believe in Brit Wrestling! I believe in the game of chess, one upsmanship aspect of the British Style and I love technical wrestling when done WELL. BUT I do not accept weak looking punches, kicks and strikes because there is no excuse for them IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 18, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 That's true to an extent, but the guys you mention weren't panto villains. Finlay and Rocco were just badass motherfuckers. You could just tell by their snarling "don't fuck with me" expressions that you weren't going to like them much. Kendo was a big scary masked dude with a sword and twat for a manager. There are simple, subtle ways of getting the "right" reactions without the panto performances. Everything else Barrington said is spot on. Like I said carbomb, if they were able to wrestle and get the crowd to boo them for simple things they do in the ring, then they'd be a good heel. Rocco and mcmanus etc were established as heels which is fair enough fo them to shout at the crowd, but when you're not well known you have to let the crowd know by your wrestling. What sense does it make if they clap for a wrestler after he's announced, and he walks out and tels the crowd to shut up. Everybody wants the cheers from the crowd. If they waited until they were booed before screaming at them it'd make more sense  Yeah, but the entrances are there to establish character, too. To completely disregard them is not smart. I agree that relying on "SHUUUTTT UUUUPPP" and clapping the crowd is simplistic and betrays, perhaps, a lack of real working ability, but in this day and age, the entrance is just a valid a part of establishing character identity and alignment as any part of the match. Yes, it's essential to be able to put your character across in a match, but to focus purely on that and not on other aspects of your character makes an incomplete worker to my mind.  Look at Big Daddy - awful worker, but his entrance was colourful, loud, and quite clearly a babyface's. Finlay got in the ring with Princess Paula fawning over him and treating him like a star. Naggers' entrances were legendary.  This is all before we even get to the US - Warrior, Hogan, Sting, Undertaker, Flair, the list goes on. Hell, Kennedy/Anderson's entrance is probably one of the only memorable things about the guy, and it even had people believing he could be as big as The Rock at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I guess that's true. A guy should be selling his match from the second he steps through the curtain until the second he gets back afterwards. Ideally, he should be selling it for a few minutes beforehand and most take a few minutes to wind down afterwards if they've been "on". I just think that selling a gimmick is about much more than "shaaaat aaaarp!" or "c'mon, let's hear ya!" I almost think that that aspect is something we've got from America. In small venues like we're used to here, you can have much more subtle and personal interaction with the fans, and they can all look right into your eyes. If you're really on your game, you should be able to make yourself the most hated or the most loved man in the building just from the little things. There's no need for the overblown grand gestures of WWE style in a hall with under a thousand fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Event Jobber Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 When I first started wrestling training strikes was one of the first things I learnt. Now my trainers said that they where good and realistic but I never hurt anybody made good contact and noise. When I had my first match afterwards I had people coming up to me saying that I looked like I was really hitting them which is a good thing(I think). But for some reason outsiders thought I was just going out there and twating everyone for real(which I wouldnt do) and needed to go back and learn to work my punches. Just depends on the people watching I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 How many wrestlers in the UK believe in themselves? Â When I say that I mean who genuinely believe in their character so much that they ooze it? Point in question, look at someone like Muta or Hogan or Austin. When they went out into the ring you believed in their character - even the outlandish ones that seem too OTT to be true. Look at Taker. He was and is awesome but the character is so stupid - when you actually think about it, a dead person walking about... - but he believes everything he does in the ring and he is "on" before he even steps out the curtain. At the same time he very rarely does signings because that's not what his character is. Â Where are the characters nowadays? It's all well and good being able to wrestle convincingly (not always the case in the UK or even US indies) but there is often a lack of character to even begin with. If you have no character - in the meaning of you don't have a charisma and a quality which singles you out from anyone who can put on a few holds and do the movez - then why should anyone care and as a result why should anyone pay to see you wrestle? Â Another issue i find is this... Guys walking about outside having a chat amongst each other after the show... Now call me a bit picky but in my mind this puts wrestlers in a position in which they are seen as "normal people". People that could be your neighbour. Wrestlers shouldnt be "normal guys" but larger than life characters that you would only really see at the show or a meet and greet. Sure you see them before the show getting out of their cars etc and they should be respectful and sign autographs etc if asked BUT it's about making yourself a "star" and not just Joe Public. Â In my mind this along with a number of other things make people look like a guy trying to pretend to be a wrestler than actually becoming one. I am a believer in being the biggest self promotor in the world. Make yourself special, unique and "must see" not just another guy that's on a show. Maybe I am wrong (and probably are!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Going back to working (again!) what is too stiff? I mean I was told at one stage that my technical was "too tight" and I needed to chill out. After a while I did but I still firmly believed that the guys in the ring should be fighting for the hold. When there was enough fighting I would be happy to continue and really got into it when the other person was working with the same mentality. This adds an element of realism. I personally hate a chain sequence when its blatent that it was all flimsey with nothing behind it and often a rushed job of selling and putting the holds on properly. I also believe that if you can work holds, opposed to just putting them on in an order, you can make a match go from poor to good just based on holds. For example, I went to a show locally and saw the first few matches looking particularly poor. The guys in the ring were going through the motions we all know - lock up, wrist lock, hammer lock, head lock... you see my point - but they were running through it so fast that 1) I couldnt really keep up with it 2) i thought "you couldnt get out of them that easy if it was realistic" and it really killed what could have been decent. They went 1000mph and by the end the crowd werent interested. Then the main eventers came out and completely opposite. They went in and started slow, wrist lock was tight and the selling was realistic. Next came and hammerlock and once again the selling and the fighting to get out of it was realistic. This drew the crowd in and made the action and in turn the match mean something. I wanna fight for the advantage during lock ups! A half arsed, dancey style sequence can kill a match imo. Work together but do it with the intention that it looks great. . . though I have to admit that mentality is knackering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Surf Digby Posted May 18, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted May 18, 2011 Going back to working (again!) what is too stiff? It's whatever the other guy thinks is too stiff. You can give some guys a reasonable bosh and they'll say that it's still too light, others will panic and think you're trying to damage them. Â I once had a guy stamp his foot and make no contact when chopping me. Freaked me out, it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Event Jobber Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 How many wrestlers in the UK believe in themselves? Â When I say that I mean who genuinely believe in their character so much that they ooze it? Point in question, look at someone like Muta or Hogan or Austin. When they went out into the ring you believed in their character - even the outlandish ones that seem too OTT to be true. Look at Taker. He was and is awesome but the character is so stupid - when you actually think about it, a dead person walking about... - but he believes everything he does in the ring and he is "on" before he even steps out the curtain. At the same time he very rarely does signings because that's not what his character is. Â Where are the characters nowadays? It's all well and good being able to wrestle convincingly (not always the case in the UK or even US indies) but there is often a lack of character to even begin with. If you have no character - in the meaning of you don't have a charisma and a quality which singles you out from anyone who can put on a few holds and do the movez - then why should anyone care and as a result why should anyone pay to see you wrestle? Â Another issue i find is this... Guys walking about outside having a chat amongst each other after the show... Now call me a bit picky but in my mind this puts wrestlers in a position in which they are seen as "normal people". People that could be your neighbour. Wrestlers shouldnt be "normal guys" but larger than life characters that you would only really see at the show or a meet and greet. Sure you see them before the show getting out of their cars etc and they should be respectful and sign autographs etc if asked BUT it's about making yourself a "star" and not just Joe Public. Â In my mind this along with a number of other things make people look like a guy trying to pretend to be a wrestler than actually becoming one. I am a believer in being the biggest self promotor in the world. Make yourself special, unique and "must see" not just another guy that's on a show. Maybe I am wrong (and probably are!) I think it helps if your someone that can engage with people, aint afraid to look like a fool, be able to laugh at your self, can convey intensity. Also if you can bring something that is actually you. So personally for me before I started wrestling I played Ice Hockey and my job was team enforcer so I was there as protection for the weaker players on my team and also as a bully when needed be. I brought all of that to the wrestling ring and people seem to like unless they are blowing smoke up my arse lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Going back to working (again!) what is too stiff? It's whatever the other guy thinks is too stiff. You can give some guys a reasonable bosh and they'll say that it's still too light, others will panic and think you're trying to damage them. Â I once had a guy stamp his foot and make no contact when chopping me. Freaked me out, it did. Â THATS what I mean! I want a bit of oomph behind it otherwise it throws you off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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