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Brewster's Millions : ROH


RancidPunx

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Anybody got any suggestions that DON'T involve Paul Heyman? He seems to be the default solution to everything that's wrong in wrestling if you believe half this forum - and I just don't believe he is.

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Heyman hasnt booked in years and hasnt been any good since about 1997. People can look at 2002-03, but I forgot who said that it doesnt take a genius to put the likes of Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero and Benoit against each. His storylines certainly werent ground breaking on Smackdown and the ratings dropped into the low 3.0's and high 2.0's in mid-2002 when he took over. His OVW stuff wasnt up to much, and his ECW angles were even worse. Alvarez (yes Alvarez) said it would be pointless bringing Heyman in to book a promotion in 2011. There's plenty of people out there that could book Ring of Honor or TNA. Heyman is no different to them as far as where it matters, and thats creating business. He's got no history of taking a company to where they want to be. He did well creating an audience for ECW, but his attitude got them fucked about off networks and his wrestlers never got paid.

 

I'm not even a Heyman hater. Its just I cant see where this idea that he's pro wrestlings saviour is coming from. One promotion went out of business, his ratings were usually shit when he was hired by the big boys and OVW's attendance wasnt as good under him than it was under Jim Cornette. In the last 10 years his CV is pretty shit. Its wrestlings greatest spin-doctor, and he'll probably never put his money where his mouth is. He hasnt booked for years.

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Heyman hasnt booked in years and hasnt been any good since about 1997. People can look at 2002-03, but I forgot who said that it doesnt take a genius to put the likes of Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero and Benoit against each. His storylines certainly werent ground breaking on Smackdown and the ratings dropped into the low 3.0's and high 2.0's in mid-2002 when he took over. His OVW stuff wasnt up to much, and his ECW angles were even worse. Alvarez (yes Alvarez) said it would be pointless bringing Heyman in to book a promotion in 2011. There's plenty of people out there that could book Ring of Honor or TNA. Heyman is no different to them as far as where it matters, and thats creating business. He's got no history of taking a company to where they want to be. He did well creating an audience for ECW, but his attitude got them fucked about off networks and his wrestlers never got paid.

 

I'm not even a Heyman hater. Its just I cant see where this idea that he's pro wrestlings saviour is coming from. One promotion went out of business, his ratings were usually shit when he was hired by the big boys and OVW's attendance wasnt as good under him than it was under Jim Cornette. In the last 10 years his CV is pretty shit. Its wrestlings greatest spin-doctor, and he'll probably never put his money where his mouth is. He hasnt booked for years.

 

Look to the points I raised in his media capacity, his knowledge of growing a company from ROH level upwards and his connections worldwide. It's not just as a booker.

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Look to the points I raised in his media capacity, his knowledge of growing a company from ROH level upwards and his connections worldwide. It's not just as a booker.

What connections are these? Spike TV was deadset against Heyman having anything to do with TNA, because the "thats the bloke who did shoot promos on the Channel on TV and ran his promotion out of business owning its wrestlers and rival company millions" thing. And if he took ROH over at the level it is now, where would he go from there? He never took ECW out of that level. ECW got on TNN and the television show was the pits. Poorly paced and second rate. It was a cult thing, which grew into a bigger name after it died, but he never grew the promotion to that big of a level. Just because he has Brock Lesnar as a mate doesnt mean much, if anything. He works for the UFC and even if he didnt work for the UFC, it would take that full $30million budget to tie him down to a contract. Dixie Carter is pally with Steve Austin and The Rock, but that doesnt mean they'll be on Impact next week, so being friends with Lesnar isnt a bargaining tool. In 2011, he's a former wrestling booker, who has a website with Z-listers on it. When I heard he wanted 10% in the TNA company and a salary that would make Triple H's eyes water, delusions of grandeur sprung to mind. He's not Donald Trump. He's barely even Sherman Klump.

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Look to the points I raised in his media capacity, his knowledge of growing a company from ROH level upwards and his connections worldwide. It's not just as a booker.

What connections are these? Spike TV was deadset against Heyman having anything to do with TNA, because the "thats the bloke who did shoot promos on the Channel on TV and ran his promotion out of business owning its wrestlers and rival company millions" thing. And if he took ROH over at the level it is now, where would he go from there? He never took ECW out of that level. ECW got on TNN and the television show was the pits. Poorly paced and second rate. It was a cult thing, which grew into a bigger name after it died, but he never grew the promotion to that big of a level. Just because he has Brock Lesnar as a mate doesnt mean much, if anything. He works for the UFC and even if he didnt work for the UFC, it would take that full $30million budget to tie him down to a contract. Dixie Carter is pally with Steve Austin and The Rock, but that doesnt mean they'll be on Impact next week, so being friends with Lesnar isnt a bargaining tool. In 2011, he's a former wrestling booker, who has a website with Z-listers on it. When I heard he wanted 10% in the TNA company and a salary that would make Triple H's eyes water, delusions of grandeur sprung to mind. He's not Donald Trump. He's barely even Sherman Klump.

 

 

Connections once again in the media, he's written articles for NYT, connections in wrestling, he's idolised within the community as you said, and has been around it forever. His connections in TV and production are stronger than you care to think. Heyman has done tonnes of rehabbing of his image as a person over the last 5-10 years compared to the impression that you give off. People no longer view him as the crazy guy who goes nuts when the smallest thing doesn't go his way, he is now seen as someone working professionally in business / enterprise, and is out to make the money.

 

Let's not overlook either the logic of taking a % of a company, it's to incentivise himself. The figures quotes for his salary weren't anything eye-watering when you look up Sting, Hogan or Bischoffs downsides.

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Connections once again in the media, he's written articles for NYT, connections in wrestling, he's idolised within the community as you said, and has been around it forever. His connections in TV and production are stronger than you care to think.

Eric Bischoff owns a production company and has connections to various media outlets to promote his products, but that doesnt help TNA at all, because what the advertisers see is a wrestling show they dont want to be associated with. Hulk Hogan is has been able to blag his way onto Jay Leno, Howard Stern, American Idol, Jimmy Kimmel and Conan in the last 18 months. This doesnt help TNA, because you can have all the mates in the world, if they think ROH and TNA isnt worth speaking about on their important airtime, your connections dont mean anything. It takes more than $30 million and good connections to make big name celebrity interviews and media outlets give a fuck out a wrestling product.

 

Heyman has done tonnes of rehabbing of his image as a person over the last 5-10 years compared to the impression that you give off. People no longer view him as the crazy guy who goes nuts when the smallest thing doesn't go his way, he is now seen as someone working professionally in business / enterprise, and is out to make the money.

Last time we heard of Heyman working in the wrestling business, he got sent home from WWE. He hasnt done much since. Until he does something, we cant judge his current attitude.

 

Let's not overlook either the logic of taking a % of a company, it's to incentivise himself. The figures quotes for his salary weren't anything eye-watering when you look up Sting, Hogan or Bischoffs downsides.

Of course they were. Sting, Hogan, Bischoff, Flair and the likes are on short term one year deals. If they dont pull there weight, they can be released at anytime. Whether people feel they have pulled their weight is irrelevent, because the fact is, they can be taken off TV and their pay is cut in half. Hogan especially is under a pay per appearance contract, so if he's off TV he isnt paid. And Hogan, Sting, Flair and Hardy are stars who sell merchandise, are attractive to advertisers and potential licensing deals and expansion of programming. They are worth the risk and they are a short term risk, in the sense that they can pullout if the company gets in trouble. Heyman on the other hand, wanted 10% of TNA! If that went tits, up they are left with a bloke who hasnt a clue how to run a business on a massive annual income trying to dig them out of the shit through a wrestling product that hasnt been successful in the last 15 years.

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I remember Tom Hicks talking about his plans for Liverpool (sore subject for some) and he said he looked at this massive club with millions of fans and they only had two sponsors. He wanted Liverpool to have as many sponsors as possible on there kit (like Leeds when they went to League One and even had a sponsor on there arses). The scousers probably got a cob on cause they thought there club's soul was being ripped out but theres no such thing in wrestling so I'd flog anything as long as we at ROH (Restling Over Here!) got paid. This was my plan when I had the RAW brand on the GM Mode of Smackdown vs Raw 2006. You for 150k for one advert, easy money!

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It takes more than $30 million and good connections to make big name celebrity interviews and media outlets give a fuck out a wrestling product.

 

I stopped reading here. Why the hell would you come in to this type of thread, knowing what you'd get, to solely go against it? Troll much?

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I stopped reading here. Why the hell would you come in to this type of thread, knowing what you'd get, to solely go against it? Troll much?

Troll much? What you talking about? I was refering to Bischoff and Hogans connections to TNA and putting it in situation that this thread is about. READ what I'm saying please. TNA is on a national network, has a host of big name stars, and the mainstream media doesnt give a fuck about it. The thread is about spending money on taking ROH to the next level. I said that it takes more $30 million and connections to take a company like ROH or TNA into areas of promotion like the New York Times or David Letterman. This is just fact. If you cant take discussion without getting your feelings hurt, dont start debating. What is it I have said that is wrong?

 

Why is it that everyone (including myself and fans of the product people are bashing) can have a bit banter about WWE changing the name of the promotion and not allowing wrestling to be said or TNA's lack of viewership and stupid booking, but if you even hint at bashing Ring of Honor, people spit their dummy out. I'm not even bashing Ring of Honor!

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Would try and run commercials in between MMA. I would definitely target legit sports fans as market ROH as basically pro wrestling without the stupid shit.

 

I've seen this idea banded about before and I'm not sure where it comes from.

Meltzer, ultimately. It is a mental idea, though.

 

Dave, if anyone would know how to merge the crossover. I think that while the large majority of MMA fans prefer it as it is a legitimate sport, their is a decent percentage who are lapsed wrestling fans or are interested for other reasons, those are a fair group. Even if it is just 1%, 1% of the 1 MILLION PPV buys that UFC sometimes get, that's still 10,000 people you can catch.

 

They watch because everything feels real and you can't quite tell what's about to happen. That's the two main selling points of MMA as far as I can see. You get some interesting characters too, I'll admit, but they're interesting becuase they're A) real and B) in an unpredictable (somewhat) environment. You can aspire to be like both those things as a wrestling company but you can't actually be them. So you'll never be able to compete with that. So what are you going to get the fans with? I'm just not convinced that stripping the product back to the very basics is the way to go.

 

I'm not really sure the area I'd go in. Wrestling before has been able to tap into something really big in the mainstream but because of the way the media's expanded so rapidly its difficult to pick out one mainstream thing. I quite like TNA's reality TV interviews they do and think something could be made out of that, but even then I still wouldn't go totally down to basics. If I was aiming to make a decent TV product I'd take a mixture of former bookers, whether I think they're too old school or not, a bunch of tapes and pay a production company that will be willing to come up with one of those format 'bibles' as they call them. I'd probably try and have a lot of masks as well. Masks are good. Chances are you might have a lot of wrestlers with a crap look, so cover them up with a colourful mask and then not only do they look interesting but you can flog some merchandise. I'd also send all my wrestlers to different acting classes. And I'd go a series format rather than being on every week of the year. Prevents burnout for the audience and the wrestlers and allows you to concentrate on storylines better. The WWE shouldn't do it becaude they'd lose a ton of money, but we're not going to be anywhere near the level so I don't think you'd be losing out on money. If you ever get to the point where people are actually willing to pay to see your characters then you could do some house shows between series.

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Or blow it all in one go on hasbeens and methheads (and friends of methheads)the TNA way...

Those 'old has-beens' are the only reason Spike TV promotes TNA's weekly show and gives them financial backing, because big stars sell you advertising and gains you licensing and overseas exposure. You dont just get a prime time slot of a television network because your a wrestling promotion. You need big names, otherwise what is there to sell to your network executives? If you have $30 million to spend and spent it on big celebrities, what are you going to do in 6 months time when you have no star power on you current roster? Because unless you find a shit load more money to put back into the company, those celebrities arent coming back. And you need money to promote these celebrities as well to make people know they are going to be on your show. In 1985, WWF brought in Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Muhammed Ali, Liberance and on that card, he had Roddy Piper, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, Superfly Snuka and other massive names in pro wrestling. You think McMahon would have farted away all his money on celebrities if he didnt have the talent roster to make those fans stick? If you had $30million to spend on ROH and you improved the production and brought in celebrities, what does that do for the rest of the roster? TNA's still in business. They find revenue from Spike because of the old names.

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Or blow it all in one go on hasbeens and methheads (and friends of methheads)the TNA way...

Those 'old has-beens' are the only reason Spike TV promotes TNA's weekly show and gives them financial backing, because big stars sell you advertising and gains you licensing and overseas exposure. You dont just get a prime time slot of a television network because your a wrestling promotion. You need big names, otherwise what is there to sell to your network executives? If you have $30 million to spend and spent it on big celebrities, what are you going to do in 6 months time when you have no star power on you current roster? Because unless you find a shit load more money to put back into the company, those celebrities arent coming back. And you need money to promote these celebrities as well to make people know they are going to be on your show. In 1985, WWF brought in Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Muhammed Ali, Liberance and on that card, he had Roddy Piper, Hulk Hogan, Andre The Giant, Superfly Snuka and other massive names in pro wrestling. You think McMahon would have farted away all his money on celebrities if he didnt have the talent roster to make those fans stick? If you had $30million to spend on ROH and you improved the production and brought in celebrities, what does that do for the rest of the roster? TNA's still in business. They find revenue from Spike because of the old names.

Very true but...How many of that TNA roster found themselves going from years of building towards being in the title scene to not even being on the card overnight when TNA suddenly brought in about a dozen main eventers in the space of a couple of months. If you have a line up of mainstream celebrities booked for an appearance and you can't make the numbers work for selling the rights to the show they appear in then that's bad business.

 

If you brought today's Mr T Rampage Jackson for example into a main event at a PPV, backed up like i said with names people actually want to see and couldn't turn that deal into something that makes a profit and gets people queing for your next PPV then you're in the wrong business.

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Barry Windham $9,500,000

Brad Armstrong $9,500,000

 

And a million dollars of mansize kleenex.

 

Or alternatively, I'd pay to get some old draws on one shots, put them in there with Southern style workers, put Wesley Richards in a fuck off fire, and then fuck it all off and buy the rights to Embry booked era WCCW off Jerry Jarrett and show that, and license War Games '92 so people can see what real wrestling is. Not fucking ballet.

 

Anybody got any suggestions that DON'T involve Paul Heyman? He seems to be the default solution to everything that's wrong in wrestling if you believe half this forum - and I just don't believe he is.

 

He was burned out in 96, 04, 06 and made a fucking giants pigs ear of OVW in between.

 

People say he's hot on pop culture. He's a fucking greasy lard sweating bald lad who thinks a baseball cap goes with a suit who lies and burns out fucking quick. And he's a fucking thief. Him being out of wrestling makes wrestling better for it.

 

But roh could probably do with a Bill Watts type in charge, who's all about the work but knows that the best work is slowing the fuck down and being realistic rather than going at it like it's Smackdown 2

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