"High Flyers" - How would YOU book them in WWE?

[RepoMan]

While WCW had a thriving cruiserweight division, and lucha is highly popular in other countries, the WWF/WWE has a varied history with 'high flyers' - a term I use loosely to cover any of those bases.

 

With the build-up of Sin Cara in recent weeks, and rumours of his inability to work a "WWE style" match yet, with 5 head-scissor variations a match etc, it got me thinking about how these types of wrestlers have been treated in the past.

 

I feel like Vince McMahon would rather have 'iconic' high flying moments, such as Snuka coming off the cage etc, than guys flipping around here and there without any meaning at all. Psychology seems to be the key for Vince, and he doesn't think that cruiserweights/luchas as they exist make much sense. I tend to agree in as much as it's more spectacular to see a few moves like that than someone who relies on ALL moves like that.

 

I'm sure seeing Sin Cara do his moves will be a great sight, but once he's done his entire moveset in one match, and then the next week etc, it becomes less special. That's why he needs to adapt to making those spots mean something. Rey Mysterio, for all his critics, isn't too spot-heavy but perhaps that's down to his health etc these days more than anything.

 

When you think back to the most spectacular moves - from Gabriel's 450 to RVD's frog splash, any of Hardy's high risk moves or Shelton Benjamin's dives, and even Undertaker going over the top rope .. these moments are used to really define a wrestler and put an exclamation point on a match. They mean something. Even when Vince did put attention on light-heavyweights and cruiserweights, they were never spot-fests like indy wrestlers tend to do - see guys like Teddy Hart.

 

I know the puny spot monkeys aren't too popular on here, nor are they with Vince McMahon, but Sin Cara has an opportunity to either become the next Rey Mysterio or the next Ultimo Dragon. I know lumping in cruiserweights with lucha guys etc is a big generalisation but you get my point.

 

Does Sin Cara have to change to be successful, and is a guy so similar to Rey Mysterio needed on the roster? I've always felt Rey being very different from everyone else has helped him be the success that he is. With the introduction of more high-flyers, it almost seems less special. Someone like Eddie Guerrero could have relied on spots if he chose to, but he mastered many different ways of wrestling, and the high flying spots were a PART of his routine. It's guys like John Morrison who have struggled to make those spots mean something within a whole package, yet someone like Shelton Benjamin was most popular when he was doing the crazy things, and was boring with the rest. It seems like there's a fine line.

[PowerButchi]

A happy medium between WWE and the old WCW way would be best here. While the crusierweight matches in WCW were lauded, a lot of it no-one gave a shit about. People like Super Calo and Lizmark Jr. No-one cared. It was with luchadores like Rey and Juvi that had the ability to actually make people care (so did LOS FABULOSOS as well, obviously).

 

To be honest, I can see the benefits of saving the big leaps as a rarity to really build it though. If Taker is going to do his annual suicide dive the last thing you want is someone on the undercard doing a Super Duper Tiger Flying Flipping Death Dive.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

I disagree with the claim made by RepoMan that flippy floppy cruisers have no psychology (though the line was written in a way that implied that its what Vince might think... so sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick there Repo..), I think there is a place for a fast pace matches which still have some psychology.

 

However I can see why many would think that fast pace matches as "psychological black holes", particularly with how the X devision changed the indy landscape (to some degree). I.e. Instead of fast pace matches of armdrags, counter and headscissor take overs, we now have TNA doing X-div matches which see regular finishers being used as part of the spot, and then they are up ten minutes later. I hate that!

 

Anyway I'm digressing... back to the point.

 

I've always had this theory as to how light weight wrestlers could be used in WWE (or anywhere in fact). Personally I like to see the WWE hire a number of luchadores (and fellow light weights across the globe), say 20, on a pay per appearance basis (i.e. none of them are on long term contracts...). This will allow WWE to keep costs down (thus making this less risky) and have a incredibly varied light weight roster.

 

The aim here is to then throw out a couple of five to ten minute cruiser matches that are incredibly fast paced... just to pick the crowd up. The aim wouldn't be to necessarily build up any one individual, but just to have something on the show that's fast and furious to pickup the live crowd. Something that is very different from (a) longer more methodical matches or (b) storyline driven matches.

 

Psychologically wise this short match time would also allow you get over a massive problem inherent with light weight matches. How can two light weight / cruiser weight / x devision competitors continue to wrestle after being bombarded with high spot after high spot? The answer in the WWE is that they don't now. You instruct the cruisers to go out and have a fast pace 6 minute match, with the aim being to have minimum high impact moves, so that when the match ends with a big spot, or a submission coming out of a super impressive spot, the match is over.

 

From here you can then introduce a championship, which is purely there to add structure to the whole thing, and then use it to build up one of two stars. E.g. in this model, you throw loads of light weight guys into this fast paced devision, and then slowly build up Sin Cara, have him hold the devisions belt for ages... and then finally release him into the "real roster" after a year or two.

 

Anyway... I know some people will find holes with this.... which is fair. It's just a random idea that personally I like.

[RepoMan]

To be honest, I can see the benefits of saving the big leaps as a rarity to really build it though. If Taker is going to do his annual suicide dive the last thing you want is someone on the undercard doing a Super Duper Tiger Flying Flipping Death Dive.

I guess, in part, it's down to who's actually doing it too. It's more impressive that it's such a big guy like Taker doing something physical like that, compared to someone teeny that you'd expect to be able to fly around without a problem. Same with Brock and the SSP, or if Big Show could do a moonsault etc.

 

I disagree with the claim made by RepoMan that flippy floppy cruisers have no psychology (though the line was written in a way that implied that its what Vince might think... so sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick there Repo..), I think there is a place for a fast pace matches which still have some psychology.

Mostly I think that's how Vince sees it, but from my own personal experience, there's definitely some bad offenders in the indys that go all out with moves and not a lot more. In WCW and WWE, and TNA to a certain extent, I think they learn that they need a lot more to get a crowd going and keep them interested.

[Fatty Facesitter]

I'd book them entirely separately to the heavyweight division, in the same respect that boxing and UFC have their different weight classes. I don't mind the odd big man squash match but I think the top high flyers should be protected as much as possible.

 

I think ideally to make it work, you need a core 3 or four main event/upper midcard type of presences in there. Sin Cara and Rey Mysterio obviously spring to mind, but I think you need a couple more to build a proper "division" and make the high flying matches as important and as prominent as the heavyweight matches. Some ways I'd go about this are:

 

1) Bring in guest stars from Japan and Mexico every so often, like Jushin Liger for instance. The American audience may not be 100% familiar with them, but the odd video package here and there would go a long way to helping out with that. Hype it up as special one-off appearances and make these exhibition style matches seem more important.

 

2) Have the main high flyers main event Raw and Smackdown every so often and often as the semi-main event of a PPV event. This beefs up importance in the eyes of the fans and you're virtually gaurenteed at least a half decent match on every PPV.

 

3) For the top stars, they need to have the same coverage in the media as the heavyweights. I.e, Sin Cara and Rey Mysterio should be whored out all over the hispanic market but also on American talkshows and all the other promotional tidbits that guys like Cena get.

 

4) I keep saying high flyers, and I think this is how they need to be branded rather than simply lightweights or cruiserweights. In the same way that the ladies are branded divas and the workers are superstars, you need to give them a fancy name or tagline.

 

5) When the top stars of the division do meet some of the heavyweights, it should be on rare occasions and should be as even a contest as possible, to the degree where either guy can conceivably win. I.e when you pit Sin Cara against John Cena or say Orton, Cara should put in as strong a showing as possible (Basically how Rey does these days against heavyweights really).

 

6) Something else you could do is have guys like Alberto Del Rio, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan and lads of that ilk come in and go up against the top guys like Sin Cara and Rey Mysterio. You can hype up the fact that as well as regularly gonig up against the heavyweights, they can also cut it in the high flying division when called upon. Tough to do really, but worth a try.

 

The biggest problem will be eliminating the negative stigma that lightweight/crusierwieght wrestling has amongst WWE's audience. It's not that the audience dislike it or anything, but the mainstream US wrestling portrayal of lightweights as a full on division is pretty sad, save for the odd breakout like Rey Mysterio. More guys need to be given the Rey treatment.

[PowerButchi]

I've always had this theory as to how light weight wrestlers could be used in WWE (or anywhere in fact). Personally I like to see the WWE hire a number of luchadores (and fellow light weights across the globe), say 20, on a pay per appearance basis (i.e. none of them are on long term contracts...). This will allow WWE to keep costs down (thus making this less risky) and have a incredibly varied light weight roster.

 

They did that, or at least something very similar in 1998-99 when they hired a few lucha lads (probably per appearance) and created the show Super Astros for the hispanic market. If I remember correctly it flopped huge. I suppose the lads on a downside contract would see their arses as well if someone who does the house shows and all that misses a PPV because they've got El Hijo del Ringsting in for the night on a Pay Per Appearance, and they miss a PPV pay off.

 

 

It's not that the audience dislike it or anything, but the mainstream US wrestling portrayal of lightweights as a full on division is pretty sad, save for the odd breakout like Rey Mysterio. More guys need to be given the Rey treatment.

 

You could argue that on the flipside, Rey wouldn't be special then either as the tiny masked super hero commodity that he is. I'm not sure if there'd be any benefit to have them all treated like Rey.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

I've always had this theory as to how light weight wrestlers could be used in WWE (or anywhere in fact). Personally I like to see the WWE hire a number of luchadores (and fellow light weights across the globe), say 20, on a pay per appearance basis (i.e. none of them are on long term contracts...). This will allow WWE to keep costs down (thus making this less risky) and have a incredibly varied light weight roster.

 

They did that, or at least something very similar in 1998-99 when they hired a few lucha lads (probably per appearance) and created the show Super Astros for the hispanic market. If I remember correctly it flopped huge. I suppose the lads on a downside contract would see their arses as well if someone who does the house shows and all that misses a PPV because they've got El Hijo del Ringsting in for the night on a Pay Per Appearance, and they miss a PPV pay off.

 

 

It's not that the audience dislike it or anything, but the mainstream US wrestling portrayal of lightweights as a full on division is pretty sad, save for the odd breakout like Rey Mysterio. More guys need to be given the Rey treatment.

 

You could argue that on the flipside, Rey wouldn't be special then either as the tiny masked super hero commodity that he is. I'm not sure if there'd be any benefit to have them all treated like Rey.

 

I vaguely remember Astros (obviously us brits weren't exposed to it) but a few things that make it different this time:

 

1) The quality (arguably) will be better. When WWE originally brought in lightweights back in the days of the attitude era lightweight championship inception, they didn't do themselves any favours with the subpar guys they hired. In comparison, WCW brought it some awesome cruisers... so good cruisers DO exist (though I fully admit I'm not massively familiar with the current crop that are available).

 

2) In addition, WWE seem to be having much better success getting in touch with the hispanic market currently, so this project wouldn't be about getting into the hispanic market. Astros was aimed at the hispanic market, my suggestion is more about adding some depth to the overall global product.

 

3) Im certainly not suggesting a entire show devoted to light weight guys. That would be overkill. Like I said, keep them for a few short matches every week and everything else is business as usual.

[Fatty Facesitter]

It's not that the audience dislike it or anything, but the mainstream US wrestling portrayal of lightweights as a full on division is pretty sad, save for the odd breakout like Rey Mysterio. More guys need to be given the Rey treatment.

 

You could argue that on the flipside, Rey wouldn't be special then either as the tiny masked super hero commodity that he is. I'm not sure if there'd be any benefit to have them all treated like Rey.

 

Yeah I wondered that, but if you think about it Rey is practically a legend now in the WWE. A sure-fire Hall of Famer and regular top of the card presence. I think whatever Rey does now, he'll still be considered unique enough amongst guys like Sin Cara and co who'd be treated in the same light. I imagine he'd be a bit like the HBK of the division really.

[Reznor]

I don't think there's a problem with lightheavyweights stealing anyone's thunder with their flying, or lessening the impact of an Undertaker tope for example. I could see it if it was someone like for example Mike Awesome, Hernandez etc. But as long as it's somebody under say 220lbs, there's no harm. It's the accepted rule that smaller guys can do it easier, recover from it easier etc, whereas when a 300lb hits something mad, it's all or nothing.

 

I generally loved the old WCW cruiserweight division, Often it was so frantic, and in some cases they were throwing out dives left right and centre that the effect did begin to lessen, but at other times (and with the real good workers), it was fine. Their biggest problem was that they didn't invest in most of them, all they had to get over was their athleticism and in-ring skills, so if you weren't up there with Rey, Juve and Psicosis, or you couldn't do jaw dropping shit like Blitzkrieg to stand out, you weren't going very far. Take for example Damian & Halloween/Ciclope, they just came across as a couple of ham n eggers because they were luchadors who clearly weren't as interesting as the highflyers. But maybe if they had given Damian his old 'copycat' gimmick or had Halloween bring plunder to his matches to work a more hardcore style, they may have carved a niche for themselves. Take El Dandy and Silver King too for example, anyone familiar with Mexico would tell you they were top workers, but they spent most of their time in WCW being bland nobodies who came across as a couple of chumps to the casual fan. Maybe if they started off as Latin America's hottest men instead of waiting about 3 years for the gimmick, they might have been more interesting or gained a cult following.

 

I actually think the old WWF division from '01-'05 holds up surprisingly well today, at least the PPV matches with Noble, Hurricane, Tajiri etc, and even later on Velocity with Yang, Mexicools, London, Kash, Moore etc. They were less spectacular than WCW, and the matches more similar to the heavyweight style, but with a couple of highspots or innovative manouevres thrown in. However, most of them had the persona and gimmick to help them get over. The ideal cruiserweight style would be somewhere in between the two imo. Like the old WWF style, with charismatic characters who could be differentiated from others and could all add something to the division, working a bit more economically than in WCW, but not so much that they're shackled. Let them show a lot more on PPVs than they do on the weekly shows so that the viewer knows they're in for something more spectacular if they order it. It doesn't have to be constant innovation, elaborate and convoluted spots and 100mph sequences all match long.

 

I haven't heard these rumours about Sin Cara struggling to adapt, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. He's a guy who relied really heavily on highspots, and on his opponents helping him to look good. In the last 3 or 4 years, the overall CMLL style has become extremely spotty, with tecnicos often busting out 2 or 3 dives per match, double that amount of in-ring springboard planchas, headscissors, ranas, missile dropkicks etc. It's complete overkill and is one of the reasons i'm less of a fan nowadays. IMO, Mistico, along with fellow Super Sky Team buddies Volador and La Sombra, played a large part in this whole change.

 

I'm not shitting on Mistico, i love some of his work, but he is limited. He's a good underdog in that environment. He takes a beating well, comes back with spectacular high flying offence, and is charismatic enough for the crowd to love him for it. There's really nothing more complex about him, albeit he was surprisingly decent as a rudo base during a short lived rudo turn last year. But it is difficult to see how he is going to adapt and make US fans care much for him, flying around and looking all photogenic will only get him so far.

 

I think the best idea probably would be to start up another cruiserweight division, taking on board some of the points from the above posts to really make a decent go of it. I fear for Sin Cara a bit as a heavyweight. Although i hope i'm pleasantly surprised, i can see him back in Arena Mex within a couple of years. I'm still excited to see him though.

[RepoMan]

I love that they've built Sin Cara up as something special. I think that'll help a bit. However, to those who have seen quite a lot of his work, is there much more to him than what's been shown in the vignettes? Are they the highlights from his moveset?

[Reznor]

I love that they've built Sin Cara up as something special. I think that'll help a bit. However, to those who have seen quite a lot of his work, is there much more to him than what's been shown in the vignettes? Are they the highlights from his moveset?

In terms of offense, yeah the stuff you saw on the vignettes is pretty typical of him. All manner of headscissors, ranas, roll up variations and dives.

 

He used to experiment around 2004-2006, but over the past 5 years or so, he settled down a bit and is a bit more basic now. He's still considered such a spectacular highflyer more because of how graceful he looks when doing run of the mill stuff, as opposed to being extremely innovative, agile and intricate like a gymnast/diver.

[RepoMan]

Yeah I guess that's what I'm worried about. It all seems something good to watch for now, but when you have to see that every single week, it suddenly loses appeal I guess?

[Reznor]

Yeah I guess that's what I'm worried about. It all seems something good to watch for now, but when you have to see that every single week, it suddenly loses appeal I guess?

Well he uses loads of variations, it's just that more often than not, they end up in one of the above 'moves' - a headscissors, rana, pin or his finisher. If he can work the style and hold your interest with the basics, you'll have no problems with his offence. And there's nothing to say he won't use some new, or infrequently used manouvres. He's capable of hitting spanish fly's and high impact stuff like that. He might even be decent on the mat, although he rarely showed it in CMLL as it wasn't his forte.

 

If he does have such a thing as a 'trademark' dive, it's that running corkscrew one that John Morrison has been favouring lately, so one of them might have to ditch it.

[RepoMan]

I suppose if the crowd can cope with the million ways Rey sets people up for a 619, then Sin Cara's moveset shouldn't be a problem.

 

Though that makes me think - is that one of his moves too?

[PowerButchi]

Take El Dandy and Silver King too for example, anyone familiar with Mexico would tell you they were top workers, but they spent most of their time in WCW being bland nobodies who came across as a couple of chumps to the casual fan.

 

Fuck You! LOS FABULOSOS ruled! The 2000 reboot really did them a disservice.