King Pitcos Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'm talking about the builds. The Warrior/Hogan match was between the companies 2 champions, biggest stars and a fight between the top dog and young pretender. The triple H/Taker match is built on a story of a guy defending his winning streak against a guy who has done everything else in the business and wants to achieve something his best mate couldn't. Â The persona's maybe silly but the story isn't. But, as I said and you seem to have missed, those sorts of build-ups only work when people are already attached to the characters via years of silly wrestling storylines. Triple H hasn't just walked in off the street. His feud with Undertaker is trading almost entirely on their backstories. Katie Vick, Kane, Paul Bearer, Henry Godwinn, Chyna, buried alive matches, sledgehammer attacks -- all that stuff is part of what made those two characters the icons they are now. That's why they can get away with a relatively straight build-up. Take away their respective histories and it wouldn't work. Morrison vs Ziggler trying to use the same tone of build-up, for example, would be useless. Â Fake fights don't interest normal people is an absurd comment. That's what wrestling is, fake fights With unrealistic storylines and wacky characters. Even when wrestling was still in the closet, it depended on such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spurs 4 life Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 But, as I said and you seem to have missed, those sorts of build-ups only work when people are already attached to the characters via years of silly wrestling storylines. Triple H hasn't just walked in off the street. His feud with Undertaker is trading almost entirely on their backstories. Katie Vick, Kane, Paul Bearer, Henry Godwinn, Chyna, buried alive matches, sledgehammer attacks -- all that stuff is part of what made those two characters the icons they are now. That's why they can get away with a relatively straight build-up. Take away their respective histories and it wouldn't work. Morrison vs Ziggler trying to use the same tone of build-up, for example, would be useless.  They have back stories yes but what do Taker, Triple H, Warrior and Hogan all have in common in those back stories? They have all won a hell of a lot more matches than they have lost. Ain't nobody drawing money by losing matches.  With unrealistic storylines and wacky characters. Even when wrestling was still in the closet, it depended on such things. I'm all for wacky characters but what i'm also for is using them and all the wackiness from a base that is remembering first and foremost your presenting a fake sport. Before you jump in , NO i'm not hoping Ring of Honor go mainstream or asking for 2 hours of Dolph Ziggler matches.  Protect the titles, protect win/loss records and keep to stipulations, then off that add the pro wrestling wackiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 They have back stories yes but what do Taker, Triple H, Warrior and Hogan all have in common in those back stories? They have all won a hell of a lot more matches than they have lost. Ain't nobody drawing money by losing matches. Agreed wholeheartedly. They've cut off a lot of the new prospects with important losses, and even with pointless little losses. I don't get why Del Rio's been losing to Christian a couple of weeks before he's wrestling for the world title at WrestleMania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Shit Poster Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 - The return of Bret Hart - Michaels/Taker  Those guys are old legends, one of which is a story built on stuff from 12 years ago, and the other a repeat of the year before.  What are the chances their will be a HHH/Taker II or for older fans Part3, that might explain why WWE have ignored the WM17 match, TripleH losing 3 times to Taker would look bad, so just incase WM28 is looking crappy they can do a rematch to help save it again.  - The Nexus  I'll give you that one, but they fucked it up by summer slam.  The Miz as a bonefide main eventer  Im neither yay or nay on The Miz, but unless he puts bums in seats he's not a bonefide main eventer, and right now nobody is paying to go see Miz or watch Miz on a PPV, (EC PPV's numbers were down again from last year) I think his push will end up Like Jericho years ago, and I love Jericho but it just didnt work out for him.  Alberto Del Rio  He seems alright, not someone I'm a fan of, but I dont mind watching him.  Never liked Rhodes or Ted I think they're both shit tbh, Orton was just wasting his time trying to build those two up, Ted could set himself on fire and he still wouldnt draw a crowd, I feel for the guy, its not like his in ring stuff sucks, but theirs just something missing big time.  I was thinking the other day, how would you book WM if you couldnt use any legends or Cena, now I know internet fans would book a show they would like, but the mass casual viewers, you'd struggle to draw anything good.  I dont know if wrestling can evolve, if you look at 1991-2001 that is evolving, but when you look at 2001-2011 theirs not much there at all, I think things will just carry on as there are now.  Wrestlemania is not looking crappy as you say it's looking like a solid show that Triple H and Undertaker have added too.   oh because I remember The Miz being in the main event of the Elimination Chamber...... Oh wait no he wasn't he was fighting a 60 year old commentator. So The Miz has to draw more people to a PPV even if he is not main event other wise you don't see him as main event. Unemployment is at its highest it has ever been in America and England. Maybe people could just not afford Elimination chamber. The same thing is happening in football. Sunderland being a prime example they are not pulling in the crowds they did last year, not because they are shitter than they were last year but because people don't have money or watch games on streams.  How many people on this Forum have ever watched a stream of a live event without paying. How many people do this in USA do the figrues someone has dragged out represent the true ratings of a show/ppv. If streams did not exsist would WWE be doing 6 million mark who knows it is impossible to tell.  Just don't go aound saying stuff you can't back up or you could at least have a good debate on. You are speculating that The Miz can't draw so is not a true main eventer but all it is is speculation.  It's the same as this following shit joke: A man is in a bar and sees a super fit woman. He is very drunk but chances his arm. His bagging line though is love take me back to yours i've got twelve inches and can go all night. She is well pleased to hear this and off they go in a taxi back at her place they get down to the sex. After three minutes they guy has shot his bolt and the woman turns around to him and says... What happened to the all night sex and the twelve inches he replies I am builder love it was an estimate.  You are making a estimate that The Miz is not drawing based on partial viewinng firgures you have seen on the drit sheets and have decided to make your accusations about The Miz on this. Do some checking up and see how many peple watch streams how many streams are there are these viewing figures total or is there an equal amount tuning into the replay. Until you know these answers you can't know for sure that The Miz is not putting bums on seats.   Alberto Del Rio is a classic heel wrestler and will be a great main eventer.  Also how many people looked at the ring master in 95 and went oh my fucking god that man is the face of this company for years I can just see it.  How many people looked at Rocky Maivia and went lookm a at the goofy fellow in the ring in a couple of years I am going to spout his catch phrases off to my mates when they are least expecting it.   Wrestling will just evolve it does not need help it goes in cycles like football one team is great for a set period of time another team is then great. The only fault in wrestling now is there is no competiton WWE have all the market with no challenge in sight from anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Total Package Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 You know I was actually going to give you a proper response, but the more I read your post, the more insane you sounded, so I'm going to just let it pass along, like a fart in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Blaming unemployment / recession or streams is bollocks. Look at the PPV figures UFC pull in. There are plenty willing to part with their cash if the product is worthy. Â I think in terms of the 'Mania card as a whole, while you can stick me in the "this doesn't look special" camp, it's worth remembering that a lot of fans (myself included) were really excited about the 'Mania 26 card, and ended up let down enormously. Here's hoping for a similar surprise this year, albeit the inverse of last. Â As for Sunderland.... they are shitter than last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Where does this idea of Cornette's idea of great wrestling being worked shoot matches with no storylines or colourful characters come from? What has Cornette ever booked that has even resembled that? Jim Cornette, the great colourful character as a manager, who has booked such things as him holding a birthday party for his pet poodle, getting his face shoved into a cake, throwing a fireball at Ronnie Garvin, knocking opponents out with a tennis racket, or an ether-soaker rag, or countless other angles that do not resemble "worked UFC" one bit. Cornette even booked a wrestling mummy in SMW. I think he wanted to bring in a wrestling bear but the state athletic commission had banned them at that point. Â Cornette's point is that when angles take place occasionally within a believable sports environment, the angles stand out. When angles take place every quarter hour within an environment where there is not even a pretence that match results mean anything, what on earth is supposed to compel the customer to pay money to see matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I think it comes from Cornette hating every successful era of the last 30 years. He hated the Rock n Wrestling era, he hated the Attitude era, he hated the nWo era, he hated ECW. He hates everything. He only hates TNA now because he doesnt work there. He fucking loved it when he was there. Cornette seems to like something if he either watched it as a fan when he was 12 or if they were giving him money to talk to his mates. He's motivated by hate these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Shit Poster Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 UFC is a different product going through a boom period and can't be compared to WWE. Also is it not a lot harder to watch mathces on youtube/streams of UFC I could be wrong.  Which period of buyrates and such are you going to compare though. Last years Elimination Chamber pulled in more than this years The Miz was not the main event guy in this years the chamber was so who's fault is it.  Amercian Idol beats the combined figures of UFC and WWE does that make it better, No. It just doesn't compare.  WWE have always been big gimmicks and fake fighting, Now real fighting is taking off in a big way everyone is like oh UFC does this and that. WWE kicked karate viewing figures ass for the last 30 years go WWE.  Sunderland played 38 games last season and finished with 44 points  Sunderland played 30 games so far this season and have 38 points they need 6 points from 8 games to be as good as last season..  I took the time and consideration to debate your points as I felt they were worthy of debating of total package. If you feel my points are not valid and don't need debating or you just can't be arsed there is no need to go down your insane zomg your so crazy I just simply cannot reply to it.  Even Air-Raid who was not involved, actually argued the points of conversation with the intelligence and discussed the points I made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 UFC is a different product going through a boom period and can't be compared to WWE.  It's still a PPV sports/entertainment vehicle based on angry men touching each other (at night). Their numbers do suggest there are plenty of people watching tellybox that will pay if something is worth paying to watch. I *think* there is something to be said about streaming as they are reported to be more militant than WWE in terms of getting people to shut down streams, but....  Last years Elimination Chamber pulled in more than this years  ... so, it's got less to do with streams or people not having the $, and more to do with people not being as excited about the product as twelve months ago.  Last years Elimination Chamber pulled in more than this years The Miz was not the main event guy in this years the chamber was so who's fault is it.  It's an ensemble piece. No one man "draws the gate" any more. If the buyrate has gone down, you can say that maybe the buying public isn't particularly enamoured with the newer main eventers like Miz, Del Rio or (arguably) Barratt, or that the loss of established stars like Shawn, Jericho, Batista and (at the time of Chamber) Triple H, or more likely that both have been factors as well as other micro factors - fewer intriguing storylines? - in terms of "Mania Season," things really aren't as good as they were last year. Perception is reality - if the show isn't perceived to be worth buying, we don't buy.  Amercian Idol beats the combined figures of UFC and WWE does that make it better, No. It just doesn't compare.  American Idol isn't sports or a PPV format either, is it?  Even Air-Raid who was not involved,  Steady lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Shit Poster Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I would still argue that WWE loses a lot of viewing figures through streams. The biggest viewing figures from or buy rates were probably 98-2000 this was just about the time everyone was going online .Well at least in my neck of the woods. No one knew what a stream was or a live feed or youtube was they watched Raw on telly and brought PPV's. Â Now you can pretty much watch anything online wrestling wise so why would you want to buy it. I buy Wresting PPV's and watch Raw on sky this is not because I am the richest guy on earth I do it to support the WWE same way i buy albums in shops/online for artists I know you could download an album for free in a million different places but I like to support an artist or the WWE. Â Streams have had a direct impact on viewing figures. Also The Miz and Alberto Del Rio have probably had a direct Impact on viewing figures because people can't relate to them like The Rock or Austin but like I had already pointed out it's all about cycles. Wrestling is on the way up and is trying to build stars. It's boom will come. I used to watch a lot of UFC but it has bored me lately I think the fights have become less interesting than five years ago well the main fights anyway the undercard never fails to produce some cracking fighting. Â American Idol is not like UFC, UFC is not like WWE so they cannot all be drawn together under one roof and compared. Even if the latter two share somethings they are still worlds apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Total Package Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Even Air-Raid who was not involved, actually argued the points of conversation with the intelligence and discussed the points I made. Â It was a hot tag, we already debated, we would just be re-debating( using more examples and bigger words), I make my points and leave it at that, no need for pages and pages of back n forth. Â If you want to carry on with air raid or whoever then go right ahead. Â As for calling you insane, well if blaming unemployment for WWE being shit aint insane I dont know what is, TheRock shows up and suddenly WWE numbers go through the roof, I guess many people found jobs that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Do people still take Cornette seriously? Â The guy is a fucking joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Shit Poster Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Even Air-Raid who was not involved, actually argued the points of conversation with the intelligence and discussed the points I made. Â It was a hot tag, we already debated, we would just be re-debating( using more examples and bigger words), I make my points and leave it at that, no need for pages and pages of back n forth. Â If you want to carry on with air raid or whoever then go right ahead. Â As for calling you insane, well if blaming unemployment for WWE being shit aint insane I dont know what is, TheRock shows up and suddenly WWE numbers go through the roof, I guess many people found jobs that night. Â Ok I don't really follow viewing figures and could be wrong how through the roof were they. What were the viewing figures average for before The Rock turned up, then after he turned up. The WWE is not currently shit it has been on fire since 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted March 25, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 As for calling you insane, well if blaming unemployment for WWE being shit aint insane I dont know what is, TheRock shows up and suddenly WWE numbers go through the roof, I guess many people found jobs that night. Â Chuff me, he was on about PPV pay per view buyrates, not weekly telly figures. Â No one is baming unemployment for WWE being shit. crawlingwest wants to blame unemployment for buyrates being low. Â I would like to propose blaming WWE being shit for buyrates being low. Â Having said that... Â Â "I'm out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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