TUF Season 13: Lesnar vs Dos Santos Discussion Thread *Spoilers*

[David]

What are you going on about? Before Velasquez got injured they had scheduled this to be a Lesnar vs. Mir season and Brock had agreed to do it. Once again, what you're, "thinking," is in direct opposition to the actual irrefutable facts. It was only once Velasquez went down, leaving Dos Santos with nothing to do, that everything was switched around, resulting in the current situation.

I wasn't aware of that. I think my subscription to Meltzers site had lapsed that week.

 

To the casual audience, Mir is definitely still considered a top level heavyweight. Personally I don't see it, but ask the average fan on the street and they still think he's fantastic thanks to the way the UFC still hype him as such. I've had loads of talks with fans I know who think Mir is still a top tier guy. And therefore accordingly a win over him would've done Lesnar loads of good. None at all? Nonsense. It would've given him a pretty easy win against a guy people still percieve as a top guy, whilst also lining his pockets with a fucking truck load of cash, in turn setting Lesnar up as a realistic title challenger again. It would've been perfect for both Brock and the company.

Nah, a win over Frank Mir isn't enough to warrant a title shot, especially when Lesnar got dismantled so easily against Velasquez. A win over an actual top contender like Dos Santos will definately push Lesnar into contention again. Putting Lesnar against Mir to give him an "easy win" wouldn't have done him any good really. He needs to stop papering over the cracks and actually sort out the deficiencies in his game, otherwise he'll keep getting shown up every time he faces someone who's at the top of the game.

 

Mir's fighting Roy Nelson in a few weeks, isn't he? He needs to get some sort of run going before he's even near the top end of the division again. He got wrecked by Carwin and managed to score a win against Cro cop in a fight he didn't impress all that much in.

 

As for the show itself, it strikes me that you're looking for pro wrestling entertainment, supremo. Why not just give the real fighting a miss and watch Tuff Enough? Jump back in if the next season of Ultimate Fighter features some coaches who will provide some pantomime antics or a fighter who knocks guys out on Youtube?

[Supremo]

What are you going on about? Before Velasquez got injured they had scheduled this to be a Lesnar vs. Mir season and Brock had agreed to do it. Once again, what you're, "thinking," is in direct opposition to the actual irrefutable facts. It was only once Velasquez went down, leaving Dos Santos with nothing to do, that everything was switched around, resulting in the current situation.

I wasn't aware of that. I think my subscription to Meltzers site had lapsed that week.

Yeah, probably. Although I did post it on here for peeps such as yourself. And like with Loki before you, I'm still at a loss as to what all these digs are about concerning the Observer. It's a discussion forum. To discuss things you usually need facts. How is it somehow a bad thing to get facts from one of the most detailed and reliable sources on the net? Surely that's better than writing nonsense without anything to back it up? Ahem.

 

Nah, a win over Frank Mir isn't enough to warrant a title shot, especially when Lesnar got dismantled so easily against Velasquez.

In who's eyes? Yours? I guarantee that if Lesnar would've beaten Mir then he would've gotten the winner of Dos Santos vs. Velasquez. Without question the UFC would've made that match. And rightfully so if they have any business sense whatsoever.

 

Putting Lesnar against Mir to give him an "easy win" wouldn't have done him any good really.

Except give him loads of money, an easier fight to win and therefore an easier chance at getting another title shot? Sounds like that's loads of, "good," if you ask me.

 

He needs to stop papering over the cracks and actually sort out the deficiencies in his game, otherwise he'll keep getting shown up every time he faces someone who's at the top of the game.

True, he needs to work on a lot of things if he thinks he has a chance of beating Velasquez when he gets the eventual shot, but that doesn't somehow change anything regarding whether the Mir fight would've, "done him any good."

Mir's fighting Roy Nelson in a few weeks, isn't he? He needs to get some sort of run going before he's even near the top end of the division again. He got wrecked by Carwin and managed to score a win against Cro cop in a fight he didn't impress all that much in.

Again, in your eyes, maybe. But in the eyes of the casual audience, and more than likely Joe Silva's, Mir is always one or two victories away from a title shot. He doesn't need a run at all. People still buy him. He's a star.

 

As for the show itself, it strikes me that you're looking for pro wrestling entertainment, supremo.

I'm not looking for pro-wrestling entertainment. I'm looking for any entertainment whatsoever. You know, like in other seasons prior. There is none thus far this season because this season sucks. Sure, feel free to defend it if you get weirdly offended by me saying that, but it's true. Everything about it just isn't clicking at all. The coaches are all wrong, the format is stale as fuck and they're doing an absolutely terrible job of introducing any of the new characters on the show. When they announce the match-ups and talk about who they're going to pick? Yeah, nobody watching has any fucking clue about who they're talking about. "I think they're going to pick Mark WhatHisName to face Franky Nobody." Erm, unless you've actually given these guys a name on TV, and explained who they are, there's no point in even bringing them up! Until they start actually focussing on who these chumps are, they might as well just abandon the whole fight pick concept entirely.

[jimufctna24]

I can't believe we've had yet another fighter leaving the show because he misses his family. Haven't these guys seen any of the previous seasons?

 

I enjoyed this episode, mainly due to Cope being the massive underdog against the somewhat cocky Torres.

 

Apparently this episode drew a 1.2 rating, which isn't all that bad really. They can't be expecting to score massive ratings every season, can they? Apart from that, Lesnar doesn't really look to excited to be there, probably viewing it as an opportunity to get a rematch with Velasquez more than anything else.

 

I've seen a few people mention a Lesnar vs Mir season, which I don't think Brock would have gone along with. There's no way they could have had Lesnar fight Mir to get a crack at the belt, which is what Brock wants. Mir is nowhere near being a top level heavyweight, and a fight against him would not do Lesnar any good at all.

 

I'm not sure that the PPV fight between Dos Santos and Lesnar will draw as low as 600,000 though, as even though I believe some of the interest in Lesnar will have dipped due to him being destroyed by Velasquez, I still think there's more than enough people willing to pay to see him fight for a number around 800,000 - 900,000 or so, especially if they stick a decent co-main on the card.

 

If he loses to Dos Santos though (which I think he will), I'm not sure he'll come back from that.

I believe Kenny Florian vs Diego Nunes is the co main event, great fight little name value

 

Much like the Lesnar vs Carwin card the UFC are relying on Brock to draw a big number by himself and as the ratings have been lackluster, Lesnar is damaged goods coming of the Cain fight and there is no rivalary I expect a big dip

 

I think Lesnar vs Mir would have turned into the Rashad vs Rampage season in the sense the coaches would cross paths several times in heated confrontations, I also believe that would be enough to draw close to million buys as fans could forget that Rahshad had just lost to Machida, looked underwelming against Silva and Rampage had delayed the fight 6 months.

 

The heat between them drew over a million buys, thanks in part to the confronatations on TUF and a excellent Primetime series that served to remind fans of the hatred between the two men, I think Lesnar and Mir would be the same. They didnt score the highest buyrate that a MMA/Pro Wrestling has ever got for nothing (they also have outdrew some Maywhetaher and Pac Man boxing matches), yes they had GSP supporting them and it was the 100th card, but the countdown show and the strong characters of Mir and Lesnar made for dynamite. Its somthing you only get very rarely but they are just polar opposites and it makes for awesome entertainment.

 

It will take somthing VERY special for them break that record on PPV

[METAL ON METAL]

What are you going on about? Before Velasquez got injured they had scheduled this to be a Lesnar vs. Mir season and Brock had agreed to do it. Once again, what you're, "thinking," is in direct opposition to the actual irrefutable facts. It was only once Velasquez went down, leaving Dos Santos with nothing to do, that everything was switched around, resulting in the current situation.

 

Considering Brock actually said in an interview afew weeks back that before agreeing to coach vs JdS, he rejected Dana's earlier offer to coach it against Mir as he had "nothing to prove against Mir yet again".

 

Don't believe everything Meltzer says.

[David]

I guarantee that if Lesnar would've beaten Mir then he would've gotten the winner of Dos Santos vs. Velasquez. Without question the UFC would've made that match. And rightfully so if they have any business sense whatsoever.

And what if Mir had beaten Lesnar somehow? What then? This isn't pro wrestling. We can't be sure that Lesnar beats Mir.

 

The simple fact is, Mir doesn't deserve to be anywhere near a titleshot, and I'd like to think that even the dumbest "casual" fan would have seen that fight for what it was. A moneymaking stunt by the UFC to keep the Lesnar bandwagon rolling a bit longer that it probably should be.

 

This is a sport, and as such Lesnar has to prove that he's worthy of a crack at the belt again. A win over a top level contender like Dos Santos does just that.

 

I think Lesnar knows that as well, which is why he went with the option of doing TUF on the condition that he gets a fight with Dos Santos. He's earned a lot of respect from me for accepting this fight, as it could very easily end badly for him.

 

I'm not looking for pro-wrestling entertainment. I'm looking for any entertainment whatsoever. You know, like in other seasons prior. There is none thus far this season because this season sucks. Sure, feel free to defend it if you get weirdly offended by me saying that, but it's true.

I'm defending it because it's two episodes old. Thus far we've had one dull fight, and one fight that's seen an unfancied fighter overcome the odds and get a win against one of Dos Santos better picks.

 

I enjoyed that fight, and through that episode I got to learn a bit about Cope, so I'll be interested in seeing how he does later in the show. I like the guy.

 

Everything about it just isn't clicking at all. The coaches are all wrong, the format is stale as fuck and they're doing an absolutely terrible job of introducing any of the new characters on the show. When they announce the match-ups and talk about who they're going to pick? Yeah, nobody watching has any fucking clue about who they're talking about. "I think they're going to pick Mark WhatHisName to face Franky Nobody." Erm, unless you've actually given these guys a name on TV, and explained who they are, there's no point in even bringing them up! Until they start actually focussing on who these chumps are, they might as well just abandon the whole fight pick concept entirely.

I've watched every season of the show, and except the comeback series & Kimbo Slice I didn't know anyone two episodes in. It always takes time to get to know who they guys are, to be able to pick your favourites and those who you dislike.

 

Already I've got a favourite in Chris Cope. He's a down to earth guy who has managed to overcome the odds thus far.

 

Give it time man. Just because Lesnar & Dos Santos aren't breaking doors and yelling at each other already doesn't mean it's shit.

[jimufctna24]

I guarantee that if Lesnar would've beaten Mir then he would've gotten the winner of Dos Santos vs. Velasquez. Without question the UFC would've made that match. And rightfully so if they have any business sense whatsoever.

And what if Mir had beaten Lesnar somehow? What then? This isn't pro wrestling. We can't be sure that Lesnar beats Mir.

 

The simple fact is, Mir doesn't deserve to be anywhere near a titleshot, and I'd like to think that even the dumbest "casual" fan would have seen that fight for what it was. A moneymaking stunt by the UFC to keep the Lesnar bandwagon rolling a bit longer that it probably should be.This is a sport, and as such Lesnar has to prove that he's worthy of a crack at the belt again. A win over a top level contender like Dos Santos does just that.

 

I think Lesnar knows that as well, which is why he went with the option of doing TUF on the condition that he gets a fight with Dos Santos. He's earned a lot of respect from me for accepting this fight, as it could very easily end badly for him.

 

I'm not looking for pro-wrestling entertainment. I'm looking for any entertainment whatsoever. You know, like in other seasons prior. There is none thus far this season because this season sucks. Sure, feel free to defend it if you get weirdly offended by me saying that, but it's true.

I'm defending it because it's two episodes old. Thus far we've had one dull fight, and one fight that's seen an unfancied fighter overcome the odds and get a win against one of Dos Santos better picks.

 

I enjoyed that fight, and through that episode I got to learn a bit about Cope, so I'll be interested in seeing how he does later in the show. I like the guy.

 

Everything about it just isn't clicking at all. The coaches are all wrong, the format is stale as fuck and they're doing an absolutely terrible job of introducing any of the new characters on the show. When they announce the match-ups and talk about who they're going to pick? Yeah, nobody watching has any fucking clue about who they're talking about. "I think they're going to pick Mark WhatHisName to face Franky Nobody." Erm, unless you've actually given these guys a name on TV, and explained who they are, there's no point in even bringing them up! Until they start actually focussing on who these chumps are, they might as well just abandon the whole fight pick concept entirely.

I've watched every season of the show, and except the comeback series & Kimbo Slice I didn't know anyone two episodes in. It always takes time to get to know who they guys are, to be able to pick your favourites and those who you dislike.

 

Already I've got a favourite in Chris Cope. He's a down to earth guy who has managed to overcome the odds thus far.

 

Give it time man. Just because Lesnar & Dos Santos aren't breaking doors and yelling at each other already doesn't mean it's shit.

Based on the UFC HW division not having much depth, I think Mir would get a title shot against Cain if he would have beaten Brock after a stint on TUF, besides Carwin of the top of my head I cant think of anyone else the UFC could put against Cain after JDS

 

Its all circumstantial though

 

I will say for Mir he is a underated draw for the UFC and as long as if he is top 10 in the world still in my opinion

[David]

Based on the UFC HW division not having much depth, I think Mir would get a title shot against Cain if he would have beaten Brock after a stint on TUF, besides Carwin of the top of my head I cant think of anyone else the UFC could put against Cain after JDS

Is anyone seriously giving Mir much chance against Velasquez?

[jimufctna24]

Based on the UFC HW division not having much depth, I think Mir would get a title shot against Cain if he would have beaten Brock after a stint on TUF, besides Carwin of the top of my head I cant think of anyone else the UFC could put against Cain after JDS

Is anyone seriously giving Mir much chance against Velasquez?

No course not, he would be a huge underdog but the UFC could market it with a Primetime series and do a good job of building up Mir as a viable threat, just like they did with Hardy when he thought GSP, im sure it could do good business, with Cains lack of personality the UFC best hope they have contenders with strong personalities like Mir and Lesnar so they can do big business

[David]

The next time Velasquez steps into the cage I want to see him face Dos Santos.

[mickfan]

This season seems slightly lacklustre. People tune in to see Lesnar fight, not just to go through the motions trainign these nobodies. Even Lesnar seems bored with this season.

[David]

This season seems slightly lacklustre. People tune in to see Lesnar fight, not just to go through the motions trainign these nobodies. Even Lesnar seems bored with this season.

Jesus Christ....

 

We've had two fucking episodes!

[Supremo]

Considering Brock actually said in an interview afew weeks back that before agreeing to coach vs JdS, he rejected Dana's earlier offer to coach it against Mir as he had "nothing to prove against Mir yet again".

 

Don't believe everything Meltzer says.

This is the same Brock Lesnar that's still trying to convince interviewers that he and The Undertaker have genuine beef between one another and that their encounter at UFC 121 was a legitimate staredown that could've lead to a shoot fight. The guy's a total worker, second only to Chael Sonnen in the UFC. Of course he's going to say he rejected fighting Mir in favour of fighting Dos Santos once they've announced that match. He's not stupid. This is the guy who cites Paul Heyman as the man who taught him everything he knows concerning the art of promotion. Everything he says is to hype up his upcoming bout in order to make as much money as possible. What do you expect him to say? The truth? "I originally agreed to fight Mir because it's an easier fight, but then Dana changed things around and I agreed." Doesn't exactly sell the fight as much, does it?

 

And what if Mir had beaten Lesnar somehow? What then?

Then they would've done a Mir vs. Cain fight and, thanks to Mir's promo ability, probably done a very decent number. Certainly bigger than Cain will do with anyone else not called Brock Lesnar, anyway.

 

This isn't pro wrestling. We can't be sure that Lesnar beats Mir.

I never said it was a certainty that Brock was going to win. That wasn't the discussion. Stop moving the goalposts. I said it would've been an easier fight than against Dos Santos, and therefore an easier chance at getting a title shot, all of which is true.

 

The simple fact is, Mir doesn't deserve to be anywhere near a titleshot, and I'd like to think that even the dumbest "casual" fan would have seen that fight for what it was.

Think whatever you want, but if you asked a casual fan who's more deserving than Mir, who do you think they'd say? They wouldn't have a clue because the heavyweight division is seriously thin these days and the only few stars they have are Lesnar, Mir, and to a lesser extent Cain. No-one else is a star at all.

A moneymaking stunt by the UFC to keep the Lesnar bandwagon rolling a bit longer that it probably should be.

What you call a money making stunt, I call good business.

 

I've watched every season of the show, and except the comeback series & Kimbo Slice I didn't know anyone two episodes in. It always takes time to get to know who they guys are, to be able to pick your favourites and those who you dislike.

 

Already I've got a favourite in Chris Cope. He's a down to earth guy who has managed to overcome the odds thus far.

 

Give it time man. Just because Lesnar & Dos Santos aren't breaking doors and yelling at each other already doesn't mean it's shit.

I've watched every season too, and I'm pretty sure it's never been this dull before, with almost no-one being focussed on as a character and nothing of interest actually happening. Even if you're correct and it usually takes a few episodes to get to know people, the coaches' rivalry is usually enough to carry it from the start (like with Tito and Ken, Rampage and Rashad and Serra and Hughes). However, I think you're wrong anyway because in previous seasons you either had guys like Chris Leben and Junie Browning making instant, interesting impressions straight off the bat, or you had the fight-to-get-into-the-house concept, which allowed for us to get a feel for every single character before they'd even started the show. Bruce Leroy is the perfect example. This season has none of this thus far. Nothing at all.

[METAL ON METAL]

Considering Brock actually said in an interview afew weeks back that before agreeing to coach vs JdS, he rejected Dana's earlier offer to coach it against Mir as he had "nothing to prove against Mir yet again".

 

Don't believe everything Meltzer says.

This is the same Brock Lesnar that's still trying to convince interviewers that he and The Undertaker have genuine beef between one another and that their encounter at UFC 121 was a legitimate staredown that could've lead to a shoot fight. The guy's a total worker, second only to Chael Sonnen in the UFC. Of course he's going to say he rejected fighting Mir in favour of fighting Dos Santos once they've announced that match. He's not stupid. This is the guy who cites Paul Heyman as the man who taught him everything he knows concerning the art of promotion. Everything he says is to hype up his upcoming bout in order to make as much money as possible. What do you expect him to say? The truth? "I originally agreed to fight Mir because it's an easier fight, but then Dana changed things around and I agreed." Doesn't exactly sell the fight as much, does it?

 

I don't even know if your being serious with the bit about Lesnar/Taker - even the biggest idiot could tell it wasn't a work, well except afew on this forum.

 

Considering in the same interview as I stated earlier, when asked about if he had any doubts about doing the show - Lesnar said that he refused to do the show (even once offered JdS) quite a few times just because he didn't want to stay in Vegas, he only decided to do the show because Dana compensated him very well for it. I don't think your whole spiel about him saving face about rejecting Mir holds up since hes publicly stated he rejected doing it vs JdS a couple of times before reaching an agreement.

 

If Dana couldn't get him to agree to do the show vs Mir, yet could get him to do it against JdS (the far tougher fighter) - I think it shows Lesnar's original point that he just didn't feel he had anything to prove vs Mir.

[Supremo]

I don't even know if your being serious with the bit about Lesnar/Taker - even the biggest idiot could tell it wasn't a work, well except afew on this forum.

Wait, sorry, what? You're saying you believe it was all legit? And Taker and Brock have genuine beef? And that it wasn't just Taker trying to shoot an angle in the hope of building towards a match at Wrestlemania, a match that'd been brought up with Lesnar previously?

 

Seriously?

 

Anyway, yeah, as I've previously said, at the risk of hardcore_harry going, "Observer LOL," or whatever, I'm going to believe what was reported by Meltzer ahead of what Brock says in interviews, for the very reason I've stated; he's a complete worker who'll say whatever results in him making the most money.

 

Out of interest, do you believe everything that Chael Sonnen says too?

[METAL ON METAL]

I don't even know if your being serious with the bit about Lesnar/Taker - even the biggest idiot could tell it wasn't a work, well except afew on this forum.

Wait, sorry, what? You're saying you believe it was all legit? And Taker and Brock have genuine beef? And that it wasn't just Taker trying to shoot an angle in the hope of building towards a match at Wrestlemania, a match that'd been brought up with Lesnar previously?

 

Seriously?

 

Anyway, yeah, as I've previously said, at the risk of hardcore_harry going, "Observer LOL," or whatever, I'm going to believe what was reported by Meltzer ahead of what Brock says in interviews, for the very reason I've stated; he's a complete worker who'll say whatever results in him making the most money.

 

Out of interest, do you believe everything that Chael Sonnen says too?

 

Now I kinda feel sorry for you, at first I though you meant it sarcastic - but wow!

 

Some people don't like each other in real life, hardly shocking.