UFC 127: Penn vs Fitch Discussion thread

[The Cum Doctor]

I always thought there was no such thing as sports entertainment, but I guess I was wrong about that.

You can't have ever watched UFC if you didn't know they are in the entertainment business. As much as it's a legitimate sport, it takes it's booking approach from pro-wrestling.

 

Here was me thinking that legit sports have their best in the limelight.

 

You might like it, but the general public don't. If you don't please the general public, you go out of business.

 

Jon Fitch is one guy in a roster of many. The general public will watch UFC if Fitch is fighting in a main event once every few months or not.

[Supremo]

So yeah, what he's doing at present isn't working just fine for him, which even he himself is admitting to. And I wouldn't want to disgaree with Jon Fitch. He might lie on top of you for fifteen minutes.

Holding someone down (especially someone who is trained on the ground) for 15 minutes isn't an easy task, I'd like to see you try it.

I usually only last about three minutes. Unless I think of my dead nan or something.

Your wit astounds me

I figured a lame, shitty joke would be perfectly applicable to a lame, shitty point such as, "well, I'd like to see you do it!" Seriously, what kind of a comeback is that? Are people not allowed to discuss anything unless they've partaken or excelled in it themselves? Have you ever discussed or criticised anything in your life ever? Movies, TV, sport, music, pro-wrestling, MMA whatever? And if so, could you always do better? Hmmm?

 

Most people don't like it because they don't understand it. I've been at shows and heard idiots use phrases like "cuddling" to describe the ground game.

]

I completely disagree. "Most," UFC fans don't understand the ground game? In 2011? With Joe Rogan explaining it at length on every show and with a very successful video game that teaches it at length to the players? I don't think so. The vast majority of people understand the ground game just fine these days, you hear applause from the fans for the slightest escapes or switches of position. Sure, there's some idiots, but I'd hardly say it was, "most," of them. "Most," fans like ground work just as much as the stand up.

 

What they don't like though, which is a totally fair thing to dislike, is when guys hold people down and do nothing with the advantage. They don't go with submissions, try to advance position or ground and pound, they just hold them down and, "grind," it out. That's not exciting, that's boring, and if I've paid my money I want to be entertained and see guys actually fight, whether that's on the ground or on the feet. I'd equate laying and praying like Jon Fitch to Anderson Silva dancing like a bell-end on his feet. It's the same deal. Guys in whatever position they're in not fighting and not finishing. And sure, there's nothing to stop you doing it, but accordingly there's also nothing to stop Dana White getting pissed off with you for not giving his paying customers what he's promoting and attempting to give to them. Fights. People fighting.

 

And, again, if you like it then that's fine. But you can't complain about the UFC trying to have as little of it as possible because doing business like that, giving the public what they want, is the very reason that the UFC is the only game in town and bags of shit like Affliction and the IFL don't exist anymore.

[Ghostface1982]

So yeah, what he's doing at present isn't working just fine for him, which even he himself is admitting to. And I wouldn't want to disgaree with Jon Fitch. He might lie on top of you for fifteen minutes.

Holding someone down (especially someone who is trained on the ground) for 15 minutes isn't an easy task, I'd like to see you try it.

I usually only last about three minutes. Unless I think of my dead nan or something.

Your wit astounds me

I figured a lame, shitty joke would be perfectly applicable to a lame, shitty point such as, "well, I'd like to see you do it!" Seriously, what kind of a comeback is that? Are people not allowed to discuss anything unless they've partaken or excelled in it themselves? Have you ever discussed or criticised anything in your life ever? Movies, TV, sport, music, pro-wrestling, MMA whatever? And if so, could you always do better? Hmmm?

Always. Without a doubt. I'm amazing.

 

I completely disagree. "Most," UFC fans don't understand the ground game? In 2011? With Joe Rogan explaining it at length on every show and with a very successful video game that teaches it at length to the players? I don't think so. The vast majority of people understand the ground game just fine these days, you hear applause from the fans for the slightest escapes or switches of position. Sure, there's some idiots, but I'd hardly say it was, "most," of them. "Most," fans like ground work just as much as the stand up.

I go to maybe 20 to 30 MMA shows a year and hear alot of comments from people in the crowd that proves most MMA fans don't have a clue when it comes to the ground game, not to mention countless shows where fighters get lambasted by the crowd as soon as the fight hits the floor or even up against the fence.

 

 

What they don't like though, which is a totally fair thing to dislike, is when guys hold people down and do nothing with the advantage. They don't go with submissions, try to advance position or ground and pound, they just hold them down and, "grind," it out.

Surely that's not the fighters doing then, Shouldn't the referee be standing these fights up due to inactivity? The fighters in question must be doing enough to keep the ref happy.

 

And, again, if you like it then that's fine. But you can't complain about the UFC trying to have as little of it as possible because doing business like that, giving the public what they want, is the very reason that the UFC is the only game in town and bags of shit like Affliction and the IFL don't exist anymore.

I didn't complain.

[Supremo]

I go to maybe 20 to 30 MMA shows a year and hear alot of comments from people in the crowd that proves most MMA fans don't have a clue when it comes to the ground game, not to mention countless shows where fighters get lambasted by the crowd as soon as the fight hits the floor or even up against the fence.

They're not the fans the UFC are trying to appease though. The fans the UFC are trying to appease understand both the stand-up and the ground game. They just don't like it when there's a shit, boring fight, regardless of where it takes place.

Surely that's not the fighters doing then, Shouldn't the referee be standing these fights up due to inactivity? The fighters in question must be doing enough to keep the ref happy.

It's possible to throw a punch every thirty seconds and keep the ref from standing you up, yet still be a boring fighter. You know, like Jon Fitch.

 

I didn't complain.

Then good day to you sir.

[David]

Then why isn't he getting a title shot despite winning what was emphatically declared a number one contender's fight against Alves?

Because the UFC have placed former Strikeforce champion and uber exciting knock-out artist Jake Shields in the #1 contenders spot?

 

It was understood that Shields was being brought in as the #3 ranked welterweight in the world according to most analysts, and that an opening win in the UFC would see him get the shot.

 

If Fitch beats Penn you can bet your bottom dollar that he'll be right back in that mix again.

 

And why didn't the UFC give him a post-fight interview after he won that supposedly important fight?

Who knows? Because he's not the most charismatic guy in the company? Does it matter? Does anyone except you actually remember the fact he didn't get an interview?

 

It's because being a boring fighter doesn't cut it in the UFC. Sure, not losing will keep you employed thanks to the way their contracts are structured, but until you start having exciting fights then you're always one loss away from being cut.

In that case surely Fitch is risking a lot by changing his style for the fight with Penn? If he loses, he could be cut you say?

 

At the end of the day, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the UFC is in the business of putting on fights that people want to see and if you're a fighter who's style puts people off from watching you then you're not doing what they require of you.

I seem to remember you coming out with the same nonsense a while back about Kimbo Slice being a ~HUMONGOUS STAR~. What's he up to now? The last I heard he's fucking around in Japan trying to be a pro wrestler.

 

Sure, the UFC are looking to put on exciting slugfests for the likes of yourself who aren't actually interested in the skill and ability it takes to win a grappling match, but they also know that nine times out of ten those fighters aren't going to establish themselves as champions in the promotion for any real length of time.

 

A fighter who throws caution to the wind in order to get the knock out runs the risk of being knocked out himself, which is why you'll usually find guys like GSP, Fitch, Machida and Maynard at the top of the tree.

 

They know what their strengths are, and they go into a fight with a plan that consists of them beating their opponent whilst taking as little punishment themselves as possible.

 

This isn't pro wrestling. When you get jacked on the jaw it fucking hurts. You don't want that happening too often.

 

The UFC accomodate fans who wish to see the slugfests by structuring their PPV shows with those kinds of fights early in the card, usually featuring the likes of Wanderlei, Lytle, Cro Cop etc.

 

In short, Jon Fitch is a professional athlete. He trains hard, wins fights which bring him win bonuses, and makes some coin from sponsorship and other odds & ends.

 

As long as he keeps winning, he'll keep getting paid. Which is what matters.

[Supremo]

Then why isn't he getting a title shot despite winning what was emphatically declared a number one contender's fight against Alves?

Because the UFC have placed former Strikeforce champion and uber exciting knock-out artist Jake Shields in the #1 contenders spot?

No, it was because he's a boring fighter and they don't like promoting boring fighters or fights. Admittedly Jake Shields isn't much better, but when push came to shove it was boring fighter who's already lost to GSP, or boring fighter who hasn't. That's why Shields got the fight. If Fitch had destroyed Alves in an exciting fight, it would've been much different.

 

And why didn't the UFC give him a post-fight interview after he won that supposedly important fight?

Who knows? Because he's not the most charismatic guy in the company? Does it matter? Does anyone except you actually remember the fact he didn't get an interview?

Loads of people noticed when it first happened. Everyone thought it was odd that a number one contender wasn't being interviewed after earning his title shot. And the reason was because he had a boring fight and they don't like promoting boring fighters or fights.

 

It's because being a boring fighter doesn't cut it in the UFC. Sure, not losing will keep you employed thanks to the way their contracts are structured, but until you start having exciting fights then you're always one loss away from being cut.

In that case surely Fitch is risking a lot by changing his style for the fight with Penn? If he loses, he could be cut you say?

If he loses an exciting fight he's more likely to keep his job than if he loses a boring fight. There's shit loads of examples of this throughout the last few years. And yeah, I guess he is risking it a little bit, but if he doesn't change his style and continues to play it safe then he'll continue to plateau and always be overlooked in favour of more exciting fighters. Again, he himself has admitted to all of this, so it seems crazy to be defending him.

 

At the end of the day, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the UFC is in the business of putting on fights that people want to see and if you're a fighter who's style puts people off from watching you then you're not doing what they require of you.

I seem to remember you coming out with the same nonsense a while back about Kimbo Slice being a ~HUMONGOUS STAR~. What's he up to now? The last I heard he's fucking around in Japan trying to be a pro wrestler.

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but yeah, Kimbo was a humongous star. Regardless of where he is now, he was. In fact, a quick look at my (awesome) post history and I can provide you with the facts again, if it's been on your mind that much since I last posted here. Here you go, from this post;

 

Kimbo Slice has been in not only the most watched MMA fight in the history of American Television (7. 81 million viewers when he fought Thompson), but his fight with Seth Petruzelli holds third place with 6.451 million viewers, his fight with Roy Nelson holds fourth place with 6.1 million viewers and his fight with Houston Alexander holds ninth place with 5.2 million viewers. That Houston Alexander one is particularly impressive given that it was barely promoted at all, only announced three days earlier.

 

So yeah, of the nine most watched fights in US history, four of them are Kimbo Slice fights. His appearances on the Ultimate Fighter also broke all records, with the first episode of his season doing 4.1 million viewers, (the series' previous high was the 2.8 million viewers that Ultimate Fighter 3's premier did), only for the show which featured his fight to break that again and do 5.3 million viewers overall.

 

Put simply, he's the biggest TV ratings draw in the history of the sport on American Television, and whoever is in second place doesn't even come close. He's also made himself insanely rich, despite being fucking terrible inside the cage.

How am I incorrect in anything I've said there? And how does Kimbo going to Japan to become a pro-wrestler change any of that? And what the fuck's this got to do with the topic at hand?

 

As long as he keeps winning, he'll keep getting paid. Which is what matters.

Then why has Fitch himself admitted all of his mistakes, with plans on changing them?

[Ghostface1982]

If he's planning on changing the way he fights he'll get destroyed by BJ, Penn either loses against superior wrestlers or people who can out strike him, or both in the case of Edgar.

[wandshogun09]

MMAJunkie has confirmed what M.O.M. posted a few pages back. ESPN will be showing Pearson vs Fisher live

 

On the Fitch debate I will say I'm not really a fan of the way Fitch fights but it does work for him, he wins fights and he's dominated everyone not named Georges St Pierre so he's doing something right. To me, like him or not, you can't deny him a title shot if he beats BJ Penn.

 

That would be 6 straight wins over Akihiro Gono, Paulo Thiago, Mike Pierce, Ben Saunders, Thiago Alves and BJ Penn. Who would deserve the shot more at 170? To be honest it's bullshit that Shields got it off one unimpressive win in the UFC IMO ahead of Fitch.

 

I've been watching a lot of the old Fight Night shows recently and I've gotta say Fitch was far from boring back then. His fights with Roan Carneiro, Josh Burkman and the first Alves fight were really good as was his fight with Diego Sanchez from UFC 76. Since the loss to GSP though he seems content to just ride out the clock in top position most of the time and go for the points which is his right if he chooses but it's not gonna win him many fans.

 

It's not the wrestling aspect I find boring, lots of wrestlers are fun to watch (I love watching Lesnar, GSP, Hughes, Velasquez, Hendo, Randy, Lindland, Ellenberger). I just find Fitch frustrating to watch cos I think he could finish a lot more guys than he does. His BJJ is a lot better than he shows, even back in 2007 he was subbing black belts like Carneiro. He could submit and probably TKO a lot of people but he seems to hold back and it doesn't make for very exciting fights to me.

[wandshogun09]

Predictions wise I do see Fitch beating BJ on points but it's gonna be tough. Fitch has a good chin and is really hard to tap so finishing him won't be easy. You never know with BJ though, he is the better striker and has better BJJ but I can see him having problems with Fitch's size and wrestling the longer it goes. I think BJ's cardio has improved but Fitch will wear on him and probably at least win rounds 2 and 3.

 

One thing that's good for BJ is that it's a 3 round fight so he can push the pace as much as he wants early on and doesn't have to worry about going 5 rounds.

 

It's a fascinating fight because BJ is good enough to finish this on the feet or the ground but Fitch has the size, wrestling and cardio on him. It's the most excited I've been for a Fitch fight for a long time.

[darepool]

I think Fitch is going to try and utilize clinch work against Penn and wear him down over rounds 2 and 3. The size advantage is going to play a big piece of this fight I believe. I am one of the Fitch-Haters to be honest. I personally want to watch fighters who want to FINISH fights and not rely on a judge to tell them that they held someone on the ground for 3 rounds. As previously said Fitch's gameplan works for him as he does have alot of wins under his belt, the problem is all the wins in the world won't make people WANT to watch you fight.

[Egg Shen]

i can't see anything other than Fitch winning a decision....or a possibe late stoppage.

[pryko]

I was surprised to see Fitch is favoured in the betting odds right now. Was expecting it to be quite close. Fingers crossed for Fitch though

[hbk4life]

I'm in the Fitch by decision camp. I think Fitch will grind it out and use the size advantage to pick up the win. I'm not a fan of Fitch but I don't hate him or blame him for the way he fights neither, he picks up wins fighting that way so why should he change his ways. Granted i'd rather see exciting fights and people who try to finish fights a bit more, but it's up to the other guys to stop him. I'll be supporting BJ in this one.

 

This is another great looking card.

[David]

No, it was because he's a boring fighter and they don't like promoting boring fighters or fights.

I'm not entirely sure I believe you there, Supremo. I recall Dana White saying that Shields would be getting a shot at the title after he gets his first fight out of the way. He was coming into the company as the Strikeforce champion, so I don't think it had anything to do with Fitch, or his fighting style in this instance.

 

Admittedly Jake Shields isn't much better, but when push came to shove it was boring fighter who's already lost to GSP, or boring fighter who hasn't. That's why Shields got the fight. If Fitch had destroyed Alves in an exciting fight, it would've been much different.

Nope, I'm not buying that. I still think Shields was getting the shot regardless of how Fitch won against Alves. His shot was only ever going to be in jeopardy if he lost to Kampmann.

 

Loads of people noticed when it first happened. Everyone thought it was odd that a number one contender wasn't being interviewed after earning his title shot. And the reason was because he had a boring fight and they don't like promoting boring fighters or fights.

Well, we can argue about this one all day, because there isn't any way that you can actually know that to be fact. Unless you can provide a credible source of course?

 

If he loses an exciting fight he's more likely to keep his job than if he loses a boring fight. There's shit loads of examples of this throughout the last few years. And yeah, I guess he is risking it a little bit, but if he doesn't change his style and continues to play it safe then he'll continue to plateau and always be overlooked in favour of more exciting fighters. Again, he himself has admitted to all of this, so it seems crazy to be defending him.

If Jon Fitch fights his usual style (as I think he will, and quite rightly) and loses to Penn I would be extremely surprised if he got cut.

 

As for him saying he'll change his style, I'll believe it when I see it. It's not as easy as just saying "I'm going to become a more exciting fighter". He has his strengths and weaknesses, and it isn't just a case of training for a few months and completely changing everything up, especially at this level.

 

He can say all that he wants to in order to do his bit and help sell the PPV or whatever, but I really doubt he's going to change from what works, especially when he's going in against a top level competitor such as BJ Penn.

 

The truth is, guys like Fitch have their place in the UFC. Sure, they aren't ever going to be on the cover of magazines or doing the rounds on talkshows, but that's just how it is.

 

Unlike pro wrestling, having charisma isn't a pre-requisite to becoming an MMA fighter. Being a good fighter is the most important aspect of it.

 

Don't get me wrong, having a great personality and/or fighting style certainly helps when it comes to getting to the top quickly, but some guys just don't have that. Fitch isn't a charismatic guy, and his strengths as a fighter don't make for exciting fights as far as the average UFC fan is concerned.

 

Will that hamper him? Possibly, yeah. But it doesn't mean that he should change something that works for him. I mean, he's hardly being forced out the door, is he? He got a shot at the title, and admittedly he didn't look close to being able to win the fight with GSP, which is probably why there isn't a rush to see him get another attempt.

 

He's fighting regularly, making money and earning a living, which is what 90% of pro athletes do. Not everyone is a star, nor do they need to be.

 

Personally speaking, I like my UFC shows to have a bit of variety. I know what I'm getting with Fitch, but I appreciate the skill and ability it takes to do what he does, and I enjoy the spectacle of seeing his opponent trying to overcome him.

 

Let's say for arguments sake that Fitch fights his usual style against Penn. Boring fight? I don't agree. I'll be watching Penn trying to slap on a submission, or trying to get the KO on the feet, whilst Fitch will be using his size advantage in order to nullify Penn and get the win.

[Supremo]

No, it was because he's a boring fighter and they don't like promoting boring fighters or fights.

I'm not entirely sure I believe you there, Supremo. I recall Dana White saying that Shields would be getting a shot at the title after he gets his first fight out of the way. He was coming into the company as the Strikeforce champion, so I don't think it had anything to do with Fitch, or his fighting style in this instance.

 

Admittedly Jake Shields isn't much better, but when push came to shove it was boring fighter who's already lost to GSP, or boring fighter who hasn't. That's why Shields got the fight. If Fitch had destroyed Alves in an exciting fight, it would've been much different.

Nope, I'm not buying that. I still think Shields was getting the shot regardless of how Fitch won against Alves. His shot was only ever going to be in jeopardy if he lost to Kampmann.

 

It's not a case of, "believing," each other, "buying," what the other is saying, "recalling," sketchy information and, "thinking," things based on guess work and assumption. Just do some simple research. All the facts are out there. In fact, I'll do you the favour, so here they are as and when they occured; on the 19th of July the UFC signed Jake Shields and booked his fight with Kampmann. At no point was this announced as a number one contender's fight. Then, on August 5th, almost a month later and the night before Alves and Fitch fought at UFC 117, Dana confirmed that the winner of that fight would face the winner of Koscheck and GSP. It seemed so set in stone that they were already discussing the probabilitly of Fitch vs. Koscheck and whether they'd fight one another despite being team mates.

 

However, following that shitty fight, Dana did a complete 180. All of a sudden he, "didn't know," who the next challenger after Koscheck was. Whilst before that show it was spoken about like it was a dead cert, suddenly it was all up in the air and according to Dana we'd, "see how this whole thing plays out." Then, when asked what he thought of Fitch's performance on that night, Dana replied, ""He's not the exciting fighter you hope for, but the guy's so dominant, so what are you going to do? You've got to give him his respect. He's one of the best guys in the world. But tonight, out of the entire card, my Twitter [followers were] not too excited about Jon."

 

So with all this, combined with all those quotes from Fitch I supplied (that you seemingly ignored entirely, I might add), I'm absolutely baffled as to how you can still be arguing that none of what I've said is true, or be defending Fitch, since even he himself would disagree with you, going on how he's spoken in recent months. He has plateaued as a fighter, the UFC do want guys to have exciting fights with finishes and they do cut or downgrade guys who don't provide that, whilst giving preferential treatment to those that do. Again, recall, think and believe whatever you want, but these are the facts because you can provide evidence to support them.

 

And I'm still at a loss as to what bringing up Kimbo was all about.