bobbins Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Did Jack Straw have any particular figures to go with this? I'm generally curious, as some tabloids made play about a report from the Jill Dando institute the other day and it turned out to be unpublished and used out of context. Yeah it turns out that the Times have been going to extreme lengths to prove that it's a disproportionately Pakistani problem involving white girls to fit the story. In reality the figures show that a disproportionately large number of minority girls that have been targeted.  Anyway here's an interesting take on the whole thing, and about the dangers of racialising crime.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...ion?INTCMP=SRCH  The British National party's website, its logo still sporting a seasonal sprig of holly, is understandably triumphalist as it proclaims that the "controlled media" has admitted this week that "Nick Griffin has been right all along about Muslim paedophile gangs". The particular branch of the controlled media the BNP refers to is the Times, which has been running the results of a lengthy investigation into the sexual exploitation and internal trafficking of girls in the north of England. Specifically, the Times has marshalled evidence suggesting that these organised crimes are carried out almost exclusively by gangs of Pakistani Muslim origin who target white youngsters; and it quotes both police and agency sources who refer to a "conspiracy of silence" around the open investigation of such cases, amid fears of being branded racist or inflaming ethnic tensions in already precarious local environments.  This is not the first time that anxieties about the ethnic dimension of child sexual exploitation have been aired by the media. In 2004 the Channel 4 documentary Edge of the City, which explored claims that Asian men in Bradford were grooming white girls as young as 11, sexually abusing them and passing them on to their friends, was initially withdrawn from the schedules after the BNP described it as "a party political broadcast", and the chief constable of West Yorkshire police warned that it could spark disorder.  Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested.  The Times investigation is based around 56 men convicted in the Midlands and north of England since 1997, 50 from Muslim backgrounds. Granted, such prosecutions are notoriously difficult to sustain, but, nonetheless, this is a small sample used to evidence the "tidal wave" of offending referred to by unnamed police sources. Martin Narey, the chief executive of Barnardo's, which has run projects in the areas concerned for many years, tells me that, while he is pleased to see open discussion of child sexual exploitation, he worries that "decent Pakistani men will now be looked at as potential child abusers". He insists: "This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."  While Narey acknowledges that "in the Midlands and north of England there does seem to be an over-representation of minority ethnic men in [offending] groups", he argues strongly that no useful conclusions can be drawn until the government undertakes a serious piece of research into what is a nationwide problem. (Keith Vaz, who chairs the Commons home affairs select committee called for such an inquiry today.) Narey also refutes the allegation that Muslim men are grooming white girls because of cultural assumptions about their sexual availability, as girls from minority backgrounds have been similarly abused.  Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 What does the Iraq war have to do with "Pakistani" Muslims that have lived in Britain all their lives? Â Muslims have to get over the idea that a war against a predominantly Muslim country is a war against Islam in general. I don't see Turkish people in this country all up in arms about the wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Do people really think that the majority of muslims are going to seriously take on board patronising advice on how their community should behave from the guy who was foreign secretary at the time of the Iraq war? That question is meaningless unless we accept that Straw's assumptions about the way they're currently behaving are right in the first place -- if there's no problem, it doesn't matter who Straw is or how he's advising them. Framing the issue around "Bad bad Jack, man who done Iraq" is an ad hominem that doesn't actually refute or challenge the issues that Straw's talking about. It just suggests he's the wrong spokesperson. I don't think reducing the issue to that is very helpful, it only fuels the "conspiracy of silence" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 What does the Iraq war have to do with "Pakistani" Muslims that have lived in Britain all their lives? Are you just going to ignore the facts & evidence that Bobbins posted and attempt to pick him up on that one comment he made at the end of the post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 "Facts and evidence" cut & pasted directly from the noted bastion of truth, the Guardian? Sorry, but I'll pass. There could be Muslims gang-raping white girls on every street corner in Islington and they'd still somehow rationalise it as being a positive thing, and evidence of how wonderfully diverse Britain is in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I want to keep an open mind on all of this, but that piece Bobs posted is laughable. Saying that "on-street grooming" isn't an offence, therefore it's not an issue is laughable. Internet grooming didn't become an offence until after people realised what a problem it could be. Just because something isn't a named category of crime doesn't mean it's not a real issue that might need to be addressed. I honestly don't know if it really is, but I'd argue that the police who talk about it and the Times who appear to have tried to look into in a bit of detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Is it an actual offence in law? Is there an offence called "on-street grooming"? Â If not, then the Guardian's article is entirely accurate in that point. The whole article seems well-researched to me. As you might expect from The Guardian, despite Hazzard's insinuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Saying that "on-street grooming" isn't an offence, therefore it's not an issue is laughable. It doesn't say that at all. It certainly doesn't say that on-street grooming isn't an issue. It just points to a distinct lack of official data on these type of cases. Until a proper study of the data is taken, rather than the Times cherry-picking 50 cases that suit the sensationalist story, then we should probably hold back on the ramping up of race-hate and creating an angle that only serves to foster divisions and distrust. Â Obv that's a bit too sane and rational for Happ Hazzard, but I'm sure most people can see the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny McBride Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The Times is hardly known for its sensationalism. It doesn't prove much, but if the police say it's an isse and a newspaper finds evidence supporting that, then it's worth examining more seriously. If it causes tensions, so what? Are we not to investigate honour killings either, in case we offend someone? I mean, that's pretty exclusively a non-white crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 That's exactly the point though. No-one's going to complain about honour killings being unfairly linked with Asians, because it's clearly true that that's a very specific Muslim problem. The problems of sexual abuse cross all racial boundaries, and as yet, there's zero evidence to prove that one ethnic group has more of a problem with it than any others. And that includes the technique of picking up girls on the street. And the only data brought forward has shown to be misrepresented, white girls were actually a disproportionately low percentage of the victims. The Asians targeting white meat angle is just a lie. The media can investigate patterns of sexual abuse without hyping up a race angle. Â I'm sure that it's a problem that needs addressing in the Pakistani community, but misleading stories like this just serve to ramp up hysteria and racial stereotypes. Gang of Pakistanis in a car, must be rapists. Well dressed West Indian, must be a pimp/drug dealer. Catholic priest, must be a paedo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I wont get into Jack Straw's comments but the scum sheets are really ramping up the fear mongering on this one with one of them (Daily Star I think?) claiming that NO GIRL IS SAFE FROM ASIAN GANGS, I love how they claim that race doesn't come into it only to constantly print ASIAN every chance they get. Â There was also an ammusing tale that was in no way fictional sensationalist bollocks from one "journalist" claiming he was cornered in an ally by some ASIANS and told to get off the streets after seeing him talking to a local WHITE WOMAN. Â Back in the day it was ALL MUSLIMS (Muslim being code for Brown people) WANT TO KILL US and now its morphed into ALL ASIANS WANT TO RAPE YOUR DAUGHTERS, I honestly do not know who is worse though the scum sheets who obviously stir up racial tensions or the kuckle dragging idiots who buy into the bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James E Dangerously Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 No smoke without fire. While I am sure this isn't and exclusively Pakistani problem. From what I have seen in various nightclubs around Scotland it is an issue. I have seen lone Asian men surrounding the outside of a dancefloor staring at girls while they are dancing. Â My sister and her friend were propositioned by two Asian men in a taxi rank who tried to force them to go to a Travel Lodge with them. They both kept pulling my sister's friends skirt which crossed the line of flirting. Â Like I said this is probably not a problem exclusive to the Asian community but it does go on and from what I have seen it seems to be a predominantly Asians participating. Crying racist isn't going to solve anything. Problems like this need to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Rob Lowe Posted January 16, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 No smoke without fire. Â Which has got to be one of the most ignorant and dangerous phrases of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoghurt Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 No smoke without fire. While I am sure this isn't and exclusively Pakistani problem. From what I have seen in various nightclubs around Scotland it is an issue. I have seen lone Asian men surrounding the outside of a dancefloor staring at girls while they are dancing. Â My sister and her friend were propositioned by two Asian men in a taxi rank who tried to force them to go to a Travel Lodge with them. They both kept pulling my sister's friends skirt which crossed the line of flirting. Â Like I said this is probably not a problem exclusive to the Asian community but it does go on and from what I have seen it seems to be a predominantly Asians participating. Crying racist isn't going to solve anything. Problems like this need to be addressed. Â I agree to an extent, blaming one race doesn't solve the problem, peoples attitudes towards women in the Asian community is an issue, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem with the "natives" as well. But there is a large element of people looking for reasons to bury these problems, and it just happens race is the easy issue to end rational discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary v1 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 No smoke without fire. While I am sure this isn't and exclusively Pakistani problem. From what I have seen in various nightclubs around Scotland it is an issue. I have seen lone Asian men surrounding the outside of a dancefloor staring at girls while they are dancing. Â My sister and her friend were propositioned by two Asian men in a taxi rank who tried to force them to go to a Travel Lodge with them. They both kept pulling my sister's friends skirt which crossed the line of flirting. Â Like I said this is probably not a problem exclusive to the Asian community but it does go on and from what I have seen it seems to be a predominantly Asians participating. Crying racist isn't going to solve anything. Problems like this need to be addressed. Â Ah fuck off. I've also admired a nice looking girl dancing in the garage. It's hardly a crime. And how can a lone man surround anything? Â I can tell you plenty of anecdotal evidence of white guys going too far too. Doesn't really prove anything, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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