The moment you thought about quitting wrestling

[TheBigBoot]

I still say a huge problem with the way WWE's been attempting to create stars in the last few years is that nobody's been given that decisive, main-event moment since Cena and Batista.

 

Orton kicking Vince in the head came across as such a moment at the time... Until they ruined it.

 

Austin had the WM13 match with Bret, Triple H had the Royal Rumble win over Cactus Jack, Cena had JBL and Batista had Triple H. Since then, none of the new main eventers have been given that one, decisive win that cemented their places; I still don't 100% buy CM Punk as an established, perennial main-eventer because of the nature of his first two title wins, and the fact that he's never really beaten anyone of solid main event stature decisively.

 

I agree about Punk. What about Edge and Orton though? Like I said to Supremo, I won't deny that both have had some bad booking in the past but they do/did come across as main eventers to me. As did Jeff Hardy. Not on the level of Austin, Cena or Triple H, but certainly leagues above Punk.

 

Swagger's been nothing but a lame duck, and Sheamus, whilst he's running with the ball he's been given, was initially the lamest duck of them all - it's only after he got the belt they gave him the Triple H beatdown, but they seem determined to undermine that with him running away all the time. Not every heel has to be a chickenshit, and I don't see why a guy as hulking as Sheamus should be.

 

I agree with that as well. It isn't a new complaint as far as WWF/E though, I remember that's one of the main problems a lot of WCW/NJPW/UWFi fans had with Vader's run in WWF. He'd never been a "chickenshit" heel in any of those places but once he joined WWF it seemed they wanted to add that element to his character and it didn't really work. Even with Sid, who was technically a tweener, a few months later there was some complaint that they'd made his character more of the traditional cowardly heel (attacking teenagers and senior citizens) to hype the Rumble match with Michaels, than an all-out badass. Not saying they were wrong to do so considering how much he got cheered when he did do the "hulking badass" thing in the early 90s.

 

It raises their profile, sure, but it doesn't make them a star.

What counts as a star though?

 

Someone who sells tickets, sells merchandise, and generates column inches.

 

You look at how boxing has struggled to produce stars. It's not like people aren't amassing good fight records, it's just that as a profession they've lost the knack of making people care about the fighters and the fights. They've failed, IMO, to learn from either WWE or UFC.

 

Or they've just forgotten how they made their own stars standout in the past?

 

Tiger Rick is spot on in what he's saying. Another thing is that to the casual audience alot of it is who wins is who's the best, because of UFC's "these lads are real" type audience. So an impressive performance is out of UFC's hands. If a boring cunt with pasty skin called Clive got a shot at Brock Lesnar and knocked him out, he's a star. If a boring cunt with a hairy chest and tight little shorts beat John Cena, I'm rolling my eyes and seeing whats happening on Eastenders.

 

I think you are pretty safe for now. I can't see that happening for the following reason:

 

There are however more than enough guys in "tight little shorts", unfortunately. It seemed to be the official uniform last time I watched ROH/X-Division type guys.

 

They also have enough boring guys as well.

 

But wrasslin' needs more hairy guys right now (okay I know they've got CM Punk but that's about it).

 

And some guys called Clive.

 

Tiger Rick is spot on in what he's saying. Another thing is that to the casual audience alot of it is who wins is who's the best, because of UFC's "these lads are real" type audience. So an impressive performance is out of UFC's hands. If a boring cunt with pasty skin called Clive got a shot at Brock Lesnar and knocked him out, he's a star. If a boring cunt with a hairy chest and tight little shorts beat John Cena, I'm rolling my eyes and seeing whats happening on Eastenders.

No he's not, as I've already explained using Frankie Edgar as an example. If all it took to become a star in the UFC was to beat another star then Frankie Edgar would be huge right now. BJ Penn is one of the UFC's biggest stars and biggest draws. He's just lost twice to Frankie Edgar. So, is Frankie a star now? No he's not. People still don't give a shit about him and it's almost cruel to watch press conferences where everyone pretty much ignores him, despite the fact that he's the champion. Nobody talks about how good Frankie is, they talk about what's happened to BJ to make him less invincible. Sure, to make Edgar a star they can now create a Countdown special that emphasises what an achievement it is to beat BJ Penn, and how talented and awesome he must be to have done it twice, with talking heads and highlight packages putting him over, but then that's no different to what WWE could do to make their own star. Put someone over John Cena clean, then harp on about it and make him a huge deal like when Triple H beat Cactus Jack. But they don't do that. They haven't done that in years. They have guys doing obstacle courses, falling over and looking like knobheads.

 

That actually seems to be one of their pet obsessions these last eight years or so. Obstacle courses. They seemed to be a prominent feature in the Diva Searches and then even when they stopped those they seemed to find reasons for Divas to do them as part of special challenges and stuff. I don't doubt that some of it is designed to "humble" the participants but it has happened so often that I also think someone in the office must think that wrestling fans want to see obstacle courses for some unknown reason.

Edited September 19, 2010 by TheBigBoot

[TheBigBoot]

5 pages of people mentioning all kinds of shit with no critisism, then a few mentions of Cena lead to the people posting it being questioned for why they hate him and people summizing it's just because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm all for discussion and everything but a lot of people on here seem to dismiss anyone critisizing John Cena as someone doing it just to get a reaction.

 

Personally I find his matches hard to enjoy because his offence and his selling - so everything he does inside a wrestling ring - are so phony looking (something I've never said about any other WWE main eventer ever) that I can't suspend my disbelief, and I have the same problem with his promos. I love psychology in a match where the heel breaks down the babyface until he can muster up a comeback. That's probably the biggest critisism of Cena (and there are many), that he STILL hasn't grasped the concept that if somebody works for 10 minutes on your arm or leg you really shouldn't be running around or picking people up 2 minutes later.

So there is literally nothing about John Cena I enjoy watching.

 

... just kidding, I only don't like him because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm something of a Cena fan (I thought he was a shoe-in for 'wrestler of the year' in 2007 and by far the most consistent headliner in 2009 as well) and I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, re. Cena's actual working ability (I even think he's a decent promo) but I do think you raise a valid point: If people dislike Cena that much and he's such a big part of the product then I'd say that's a perfectly valid reason for them to jack it in.

His fans can defend his actual matches, promos, angles, etc. as much as they want but if someone doesn't find any of them entertaining and they are a big part of the show then I can see why it would make them quit.

 

Absolutely.

 

I never missed more than 3 or 4 consecutive episodes of Raw or pay-per-views from 1993 all the way through until earlier this year.

 

Despite my dislike of Cena, I always tuned in because at least when he faced the other main eventers (with the exception of Sheamus) they were good enough workers to carry him to decent matches in decent feuds imo.

 

So the final straw for me was the night Nexus attacked Cena. Seeing legitimate rookies feuding with John Cena was such a horrible prospect in my mind that I haven't watched a Raw or ppv since that night.

 

I still read reviews of the shows each Tuesday and if I see something interesting I will then watch a repeat, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

That's what people mean about wrestling being "addictive". From early 1988 up until the period when I didn't have Sky at uni, the only period since the 1980s where my parents didn't have Sky, where I didn't have any friends who were still watching to record it for me and where I kept managing to miss Channel 4's version of Heat despite promising myself every week I'd sprint home from the pub or whatever when it was on (sure the time seemed to change every Saturday as well!) that would have been the same for me. Other than that one period, then from 1988 up until now the only times I think the only times I didn't watch at least one of the shows a week (bet it Superstars, Prime Time, Mania, Raw, SmackDown, etc.) were when I was visiting friends, on holiday, at concerts or festivals, staying at friend's houses, away on school/university/sports trips, at family functions, funerals, business meetings, conferences, etc. Even then I'd try and get the episodes recorded for me. Or nowadays look them up online. The fact I still watch every week does make me wonder what it would take to put me off completely.

 

 

 

The Tim White suicide FAIL did give rise to the very funny series of skits he did with Josh Matthews, though. 'Mr White! That's not wise!'

 

Yeah, I don't remember anyone complaining about those. The problem a lot of people on here had with the original was the timing since just before Christmas, a time of year when suicides aren't exactly uncommon. I suppose that goes back to the Hassan points earlier in the thread. Also the way it went down was a little odd. It started like a comedy skit to the extent everyone was expecting them to go back and deliver a punchline, but they didn't. They just left it as if he was dead and moved onto the next match. As a result a lot of people got annoyed about them trivializing suicide by using it to "kill off" a referee in this manner. At the very least it seemed a harsh way to write out one of your TV characters.

 

It was only when people realised he wasn't actually "dead" (in kayfabe terms) and it was part of an ongoing series that people started to have a laugh at it (although I'm sure there were people who found those offensive as well).

 

This was a very embarrasing moment for a 10 year old Dillkid, watching Raw one friday afternoon:

I think that I died a bit inside that day.

 

Poor old Marty couldn't keep a straight face during that segment. To the extent that was rumoured to be part of the reason WWE cut ties with him at that point.

 

Making you say "ah bloody hell" or something I can understand, but if some of the things in here make you stop watching wrestling altogether then you can't have been much of a fan to begin with.

 

I find a lot of them surprising as well. That's why I was asking Merzbow what it was about Mysterio unmasking and ajcmstyles and RAMM about the Mae Young stuff from 2000, when the rest of the product was white hot. I suppose in most cases it really must be the straw that broke the camel's back rather than the specific angles themselves.

Edited September 19, 2010 by TheBigBoot

[TheBigBoot]

Pity got pretty much all of mine in his post, Hogan at Wrestlemania 9 too. And I couldn't find an image of Triple H winning the 2003 Elimination Chamber.

 

Actually, I know someone who did quit after that. Admittedly they were a very, very casual fan and probably would have anyway but still

[CleetusVanDamme]

 

 

The worst high profile WWE feud ever. After his awful title run Eddie had settled back into a role where i could actually enjoy him again, demonsmania had stopped running wild, and he could cut a promo without saying "i was an addict" every two words.... and then this feud came along. After defeat in a cracking opener at WM21 Eddie spends a few weeks teasing a heel turn, and then does it, the only problem? with every push for Eddie ADDICTION soon follows, ugh. The feud was built around Eddie having never beat Mysterio, despite pinning him clean on a televised episode of Smackdown in 04, so Eddie's "new addiction is beating Rey Mysterio", and as if THAT wasn't bad enough they then reveal that Eddie is Dominick's real father. They spent the summer having mediocre (or shit, by their standards) matches, with the absolute worst promo work I've ever seen. Rey won custody of Dominick in a shit ladder match, and Eddie got his "fix" at some point, hideously bad tv.

 

Whoever was booking Smackdown in 05 should be hit by a bus. Not long after this Eddie was placed into a feud with the more over than anyone else in the industry at the time Batista, who was as hot as anyone's been in the last decade. What did they do with the World Heavyweight champion?, they put him in a feud with a tweener Eddie which was centered around "Eddie's new addiction is friendship", ugh. Is he a face? is he a heel? noone (outside the intenet) gave a fuck, and their match at No Mercy was the lowest drawing ppv of the year, Batista never recovered to the level he was at before, and Eddie died shortly after, and went on to recieve a post-death superman push which is still going strong.

 

Who was booking Smackdown then?, and why isn't he being slaughtered regularly?.

[Carbomb]

That Rey Mysterio feud really was fucking awful. It got slaughtered on here, too. Sometimes there are just some soap storylines which really shouldn't be used.

[tiger_rick]

The feud was shit. That picture though is Eddie cutting an outstanding promo. Also, Eddie's "I was an addict" promo's were fucking sensational.

[CleetusVanDamme]

That picture though is Eddie cutting an outstanding promo.

 

Just to say, that picture had no bearing on my post, it's just that that picture was the only one I could find that was definitely during the Rey feud. I think it was pre- Judgment Day as well, so they hadn't crossed into awfulness yet. As I've said the build up and execution of the initial turn was quite good tv.

[tiger_rick]

The worst bit was the matches. Most of it was tasteless shit but if they'd had great matches, you might forgive it. That ladder match was dire. They could have saved that too be hanging the kid from a hook above the ring.

[Tommy!]

The worst bit was the matches. Most of it was tasteless shit but if they'd had great matches, you might forgive it. That ladder match was dire. They could have saved that too be hanging the kid from a hook above the ring.

 

I'm the opposite. I enjoyed most of the matches, just not as much as if they hadn't have had the daft kid story involved.

[TheBigBoot]

Who was booking Smackdown then?, and why isn't he being slaughtered regularly?.

 

Dave Lagana. The guy who took over from Paul Heyman (initially I believe it was reported as Lagana and Bruce Pritchard) in early 2003 was the head SmackDown! writer until ECW launched in 2006 and he was moved there.

 

I believe, Michael Hayes was named SmackDown!'s Head Writer around Summer 2006.

 

That Rey Mysterio feud really was fucking awful. It got slaughtered on here, too. Sometimes there are just some soap storylines which really shouldn't be used.

 

Woah, woah, woah - hold on a minute! A couple of pages back you said you weren't following WWE at that point?

 

Not that it particularly bothers me, but it does stand out in the same thread. Not that you can't watch stuff since.

[Carbomb]

That Rey Mysterio feud really was fucking awful. It got slaughtered on here, too. Sometimes there are just some soap storylines which really shouldn't be used.

 

Woah, woah, woah - hold on a minute! A couple of pages back you said you weren't following WWE at that point?

 

Not that it particularly bothers me, but it does stand out in the same thread. Not that you can't watch stuff since.

 

I wasn't. Reading the reports was enough to keep me away, but I torrented it after a friend of mine begged me to give it a chance because he enjoyed it so much. I should have had him assassinated.

[The Cum Doctor]

I actually loved the ladder match between Rey and Eddie. It started off as really botchy shit, but they had the time to make it recover and it actually turned into one of the more batshit mental ladder matches I've seen. That Back Body Drop is probably still my favourite ladder match spot.

[Dillkid]

Those Eddie/Mysterio 2005 matches were terrible, and they were so freakin boring. I never want to have to sit through the Judgment Day match again especially, that was brutal. I do think that Guerrero is a bit overrated due to his death though, becuase I think the only two matches of his I love is the first JBL match and against Ric Flair from Hog Wild, but the rest I find to be a bit crap.

[TheBigBoot]

That Rey Mysterio feud really was fucking awful. It got slaughtered on here, too. Sometimes there are just some soap storylines which really shouldn't be used.

 

Woah, woah, woah - hold on a minute! A couple of pages back you said you weren't following WWE at that point?

 

Not that it particularly bothers me, but it does stand out in the same thread. Not that you can't watch stuff since.

 

I wasn't. Reading the reports was enough to keep me away, but I torrented it after a friend of mine begged me to give it a chance because he enjoyed it so much. I should have had him assassinated.

 

Okay, fair enough.

 

It was an odd feud really. The storyline itself was indeed rubbish after they started the Dominick stuff and it was indeed panned on here at the time.

 

Which is a shame since the slow-burn heel turn from Eddie starting in February and then carrying all the way through WrestleMania, with Eddie getting more and more jealous of Rey

[Fatty Facesitter]

Those Eddie/Mysterio 2005 matches were terrible, and they were so freakin boring. I never want to have to sit through the Judgment Day match again especially, that was brutal. I do think that Guerrero is a bit overrated due to his death though, becuase I think the only two matches of his I love is the first JBL match and against Ric Flair from Hog Wild, but the rest I find to be a bit crap.

 

Well, this ought to go down a treat.