Ian Tomlinson death

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Lets be fair though, its a correct description of the guy. He was an alcoholic newspaper salesman who was alienated from his family due to his drinking. They did suddenly start to care after he died.

 

Of course that doesnt justify anything. The guy was still treated brutally and died, and the officer who did it has a history of being a dick and should have been up on charges (I dont know what the correct charge would be, manslaughter?).

[Happ Hazzard]

He was an alcoholic newspaper seller, whose drinking problem had alienated him from his family for many years (until they suddenly remembered how much they loved him once he was dead and they thought their might be a few quid in it for them).

You really are an odious little person, aren't you? Statements like the one above typify the abhorrent opinions people like you hold.

What exactly are you disputing about my statement? It's all pretty much established fact.

 

I think I actually hate him. I know people throw around calling each other cunts and whatnot all the time round here, but Happ Hazard is a cunt. Horrible little man.

Fine, so just ignore my posts and get on with your life.

 

"Horrible" is how I would describe people who despise the police with every fibre of their being, and who will jump upon a tragedy such as the death of Tomlinson in order to use it as ammunition in their petty vendetta. You couldn't give a shit about people like Ian Tomlinson while they are alive, but now he's dead, he's of use so you'll attempt to portray him as an innocent victim.

 

Grow up. Adults who walk around with chip on their shoulder against the police and other authority figures are an embarrassment.

[Devon Malcolm]

Grow up. Adults who walk around with chip on their shoulder against the police and other authority figures are an embarrassment.

 

Go fuck yourself, Happ. You're a sad, snivelling little bastard of a person who makes stuff up to back up his embarrassingly one-dimensional arguments and then disappears for a couple of weeks when he gets found out doing such. I hope you get hit by a milk float.

[unfitfinlay]

"Horrible" is how I would describe people who despise the police with every fibre of their being, and who will jump upon a tragedy such as the death of Tomlinson in order to use it as ammunition in their petty vendetta. You couldn't give a shit about people like Ian Tomlinson while they are alive, but now he's dead, he's of use so you'll attempt to portray him as an innocent victim.

 

Grow up. Adults who walk around with chip on their shoulder against the police and other authority figures are an embarrassment.

 

He WAS an innocent victim though. Exactly what crime did he commit? "Walking slowly"?

 

It's got nothing to do with hating Authority figures either. Surely you can see the difference between someone being alarmed by a member of the public being brutally assaulted by a Policeman who removed his badge to prevent identification, and the morons who hate all Police everywhere?

 

Edit: Tidied up a bit.

[Happ Hazzard]

I don't consider a shove to the ground a "brutal assault".

 

I'm fairly sure that obstructing the police dealing with a riot (which WAS what Tomlinson was doing, by anyone's definition) is classed as a crime. The only people that see Tomlinson as an innocent victim are those that are predisposed to see it that way.

 

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible? The amount of restraint they are expected to show is ridiculous, and does not benefit anyone, except those who enjoy rioting and their supporters.

 

Some people just want the police to allow them to do what they want, and will behave like spoilt children the moment things do not go their way. They expect to be protected by the law when it suits them, but have no respect for the law when it suits them not to.

[David]

I don't consider a shove to the ground a "brutal assault".

If a protester had shoved someone to the ground, resulting in them dying I'm sure it would be a different story.

 

I'm fairly sure that obstructing the police dealing with a riot (which WAS what Tomlinson was doing, by anyone's definition) is classed as a crime. The only people that see Tomlinson as an innocent victim are those that are predisposed to see it that way.

He wasn't obstructing anyone, he had been asking the police if he could get through in order to get home after a day at work! When the police told him he couldn't get through, he turned away, put his hands in his pockets and started walking slowly. Unless of course, you consider walking too slow away from the police to be a crime?

 

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible?

They are required to wear those badges by law, Happ.

 

The crazy thing is, I imagine some people (including me) would agree with you if it was a violent protester who had been killed whilst struggling to avoid arrest or whatever, but it was a guy who wasn't involved in any protests at all.

[Van Dammer]

I don't consider a shove to the ground a "brutal assault".

If a protester had shoved someone to the ground, resulting in them dying I'm sure it would be a different story.

 

I'm fairly sure that obstructing the police dealing with a riot (which WAS what Tomlinson was doing, by anyone's definition) is classed as a crime. The only people that see Tomlinson as an innocent victim are those that are predisposed to see it that way.

He wasn't obstructing anyone, he had been asking the police if he could get through in order to get home after a day at work! When the police told him he couldn't get through, he turned away, put his hands in his pockets and started walking slowly. Unless of course, you consider walking too slow away from the police to be a crime?

 

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible?

They are required to wear those badges by law, Happ.

 

The crazy thing is, I imagine some people (including me) would agree with you if it was a violent protester who had been killed whilst struggling to avoid arrest or whatever, but it was a guy who wasn't involved in any protests at all.

 

Im pretty sure I read that Tomlinson didnt work or live near to where he died, might be wrong though.

[Deaq]

I don't consider a shove to the ground a "brutal assault".

If a protester had shoved someone to the ground, resulting in them dying I'm sure it would be a different story.

 

I'm fairly sure that obstructing the police dealing with a riot (which WAS what Tomlinson was doing, by anyone's definition) is classed as a crime. The only people that see Tomlinson as an innocent victim are those that are predisposed to see it that way.

He wasn't obstructing anyone, he had been asking the police if he could get through in order to get home after a day at work! When the police told him he couldn't get through, he turned away, put his hands in his pockets and started walking slowly. Unless of course, you consider walking too slow away from the police to be a crime?

 

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible?

They are required to wear those badges by law, Happ.

 

The crazy thing is, I imagine some people (including me) would agree with you if it was a violent protester who had been killed whilst struggling to avoid arrest or whatever, but it was a guy who wasn't involved in any protests at all.

 

Im pretty sure I read that Tomlinson didnt work or live near to where he died, might be wrong though.

 

But I think that was because his normal route home was blocked off, so he was kinda walking around London trying to find a way to get back. The problem is that a push to the ground should not kill a normal person true, but the police officer had no idea who he was pushing, many times a fight will break out and two guys will beat shit out of each other and nothing will come of it, but sometimes a fight breaks out and 1 punch is thrown somebody hits the floor smashes there head on the ground and dies, the person who throws the punch will be in some serious trouble as it was his fault the person died. If you throw a punch or push someone with allot of force you need to realize whatever happens the aggressor is responsible.

[Van Dammer]

I don't consider a shove to the ground a "brutal assault".

If a protester had shoved someone to the ground, resulting in them dying I'm sure it would be a different story.

 

I'm fairly sure that obstructing the police dealing with a riot (which WAS what Tomlinson was doing, by anyone's definition) is classed as a crime. The only people that see Tomlinson as an innocent victim are those that are predisposed to see it that way.

He wasn't obstructing anyone, he had been asking the police if he could get through in order to get home after a day at work! When the police told him he couldn't get through, he turned away, put his hands in his pockets and started walking slowly. Unless of course, you consider walking too slow away from the police to be a crime?

 

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible?

They are required to wear those badges by law, Happ.

 

The crazy thing is, I imagine some people (including me) would agree with you if it was a violent protester who had been killed whilst struggling to avoid arrest or whatever, but it was a guy who wasn't involved in any protests at all.

 

Im pretty sure I read that Tomlinson didnt work or live near to where he died, might be wrong though.

 

But I think that was because his normal route home was blocked off, so he was kinda walking around London trying to find a way to get back. The problem is that a push to the ground should not kill a normal person true, but the police officer had no idea who he was pushing, many times a fight will break out and two guys will beat shit out of each other and nothing will come of it, but sometimes a fight breaks out and 1 punch is thrown somebody hits the floor smashes there head on the ground and dies, the person who throws the punch will be in some serious trouble as it was his fault the person died. If you throw a punch or push someone with allot of force you need to realize whatever happens the aggressor is responsible.

 

The Tomlinson thing will always divide opinions though, I do agree with what Happ says about him being partly responsible for his own death (although Happ says it in a more contrived manner) but I also see the POV of others saying there should be action. I think anyone who wants to comment has to put themselves in the shoes of copper dealing with mass (violent) protests and having their safety jeopardised. Tomlinson wasn't innocent that day, but everyone agrees he didn't deserve to die for his actions.

[Happ Hazzard]

If a protester had shoved someone to the ground, resulting in them dying I'm sure it would be a different story.

The police have powers that civilians do not have. If normal people drive at over 70mph they are breaking the law, if the police do it in the course of their duty, it is permitted.

 

It is perfectly acceptable for the police to push someone in the course of dealing with a riot. Clearly where the difference of opinion comes is whether Tomlinson was actively trying to impede the police or "just walking home". I doubt he even planned what he did, he just decided to be a prick on the spur of the moment and paid for it with his life.

 

Did he deserve to die? No. Should we handicap the police so severely that they are completely unable to control rioters for fear that one of them might be so fragile that a shove might kill them? No, of course not. To do that would be to effectively give rioters a license to do whatever they wanted.

[martyngnr]

He WAS an innocent victim though. Exactly what crime did he commit? "Walking slowly"?

Loitering, with intent!

[David]

The police have powers that civilians do not have.

Those powers didn't include assault las time I checked.

 

It is perfectly acceptable for the police to push someone in the course of dealing with a riot.

Happ, this didn't happen during the course of thousands of people running rampant in the streets smashing shit up. It happened when the guy asked the cops if he could get past to go home. They told him no, and he turned to walk away with his hands in his pockets. You may "think" he was walking slowly in order to be a prick, but you don't know that. He could have been trying to think of another route home, or how he was going to get home in time for the footabll for all you know.There was absolutely no need for that cop to shove him to the ground in such a manner, although if you check his history you can clearly see why he did it. He has previous.

 

Your actions and comments are starting to become a tad predicable Happ. I knew when I posted the article yesterday that you would be in here disagreeing with the viewpoint of the intelligent & sane among us.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

If, as you say Happ, Tomlinsons crime/provocation was that he was impeding the police in their attempts to quell a riot and move along the crowds (something that I do believe he was doing, he seemed very obviously trying to act like a dick to me) then in what possible way is hitting him from behind in the bag of the legs with an extendable truncheon going to help? The officer who did that obviously wasnt in any way shape or form helping to control the crowd and move it on, in fact it would have quite the opposite effect. It was an officer lashing out in anger and/or frustration at Tomlinson, an attack that would have forced him to move slower and be weaker on his feet and so more prone to falling when then pushed.

 

Anyway, yeah. So my view is that Tomlinson was a dick, but the police were OTT in dealing with him and should have been punished for that. Police have these 'extra powers' but also have the responsability to use them right. They have to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us if they want to justify these rights.

[Surf Digby]

Can you blame the police for taking their badges when dealing with protesters the way the country is today, with people hell-bent on causing trouble and then filming the aftermath to show the police in the most negative light possible? The amount of restraint they are expected to show is ridiculous, and does not benefit anyone, except those who enjoy rioting and their supporters.

To remove their badges whilst on duty is an offense under the Police Reform Act 2002. With their identical uniforms and faces covered, they are required to have their shoulder badges on display so that they can be identified for a number of reasons, one of which is so they can be held accountable if they do something naughty.

 

For the record, I'm pro-Police. I am, however, anti-misbehaving Police.

[The King Of Swing]

He was an alcoholic newspaper seller, whose drinking problem had alienated him from his family for many years (until they suddenly remembered how much they loved him once he was dead and they thought their might be a few quid in it for them)

 

You repulsive little cretin.