freaky Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Interesting point brought up by Martin Brunt. Â About 1,000 people go to prison in a week - how hard would it be to find any Scousers in their late twenties with a shit attitude? His anonymity's at serious risk now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Surely the only difference bewteen waiting til' they're 20 & hanging them & hanging them when they're 10 years old is that it's a little easier for the masses to stomach? If you believe that at aged 10 there should be a degree of diminished responsibility, that the parents should be held partially accountable (both boys were obviously troubled, should've been school at the time etc etc) then nothing changes in the decade between the offence & the execution. You're still executing a 10 year old but giving him a long wait? Â Shady area. One thing is clear justice was not carried out in the 8 years they spent playing games all day. As adults they should atleast be forced to explain the actions they carried out and live with the names they where born with not least so people can know whos living next to them, dating their daughter, or worse still baby sitting the kids. Â The problem with this is that the British public can't be trusted with such information. We've seen paediatrician's cars get torched with a little help from the News of the World. Also, who knows tha they spent 8 years playing games all day? Bit of a tabloid assumption. Â As Rick pointed out, no-one's looked at the root-cause, the upbringing & most importantly IMO the fucking parents. Why is this? Because no-one wants to think that they're kids could turn out the same way. There's plenty of scumbag parents in this country who don't give two shits about their kids, don't care if they attend school or not & would probably fit the parenting profile of these two children. These people are also a good chunk of the tabloids readership, hence why when something horrific like this, Columbine or any serious crime innvolving kids happens a scapegoat must be found quickly. Childs Play 3, Marilyn Manson records etc. People need something to point a finger at instead of actually looking at the real causes ,which might bring up a much more unpopular answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylin_and_Profilin Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Interesting point brought up by Martin Brunt. About 1,000 people go to prison in a week - how hard would it be to find any Scousers in their late twenties with a shit attitude? His anonymity's at serious risk now.  There was discussion on Radio5 last night about this when i was driving home and there was a few loose suggestions that his identity had been leaked, either through his own indiscretions or otherwise, and that he'd been brought back in on breach of license for his own safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members quote the raven Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Surely the only difference bewteen waiting til' they're 20 & hanging them & hanging them when they're 10 years old is that it's a little easier for the masses to stomach? If you believe that at aged 10 there should be a degree of diminished responsibility, that the parents should be held partially accountable (both boys were obviously troubled, should've been school at the time etc etc) then nothing changes in the decade between the offence & the execution. You're still executing a 10 year old but giving him a long wait? Shady area. One thing is clear justice was not carried out in the 8 years they spent playing games all day. As adults they should atleast be forced to explain the actions they carried out and live with the names they where born with not least so people can know whos living next to them, dating their daughter, or worse still baby sitting the kids.  The problem with this is that the British public can't be trusted with such information. We've seen paediatrician's cars get torched with a little help from the News of the World. Also, who knows tha they spent 8 years playing games all day? Bit of a tabloid assumption.  As Rick pointed out, no-one's looked at the root-cause, the upbringing & most importantly IMO the fucking parents. Why is this? Because no-one wants to think that they're kids could turn out the same way. There's plenty of scumbag parents in this country who don't give two shits about their kids, don't care if they attend school or not & would probably fit the parenting profile of these two children. These people are also a good chunk of the tabloids readership, hence why when something horrific like this, Columbine or any serious crime innvolving kids happens a scapegoat must be found quickly. Childs Play 3, Marilyn Manson records etc. People need something to point a finger at instead of actually looking at the real causes ,which might bring up a much more unpopular answer.  Top post that well thought out and posted.  I think it comes down to the same thing, no one knew what to do with them. So they let them go. Turns out if reports are to taken for what they are, he kicked off at work and got in a fight. It also says he has or had a bad drug habit. Maybe hes trying to block out what he did? If so then that would be worse than death.  Id like to be able to talk to these two, or for the reports to be released by the doctors that cared for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalaxyV.2 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 The one thing I would say is they should have served longer in jail. Essentially they never really served for their crime as they were allowed out and the place they were held was hardly 'prison'. I think they should have served at least 5 years in prison. Â Tbh I just feel sprry for the mother, she's had a pretty shit life ever since, and this will just bring it all back to her. I hope she finds some peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Tbh I just feel sprry for the mother, she's had a pretty shit life ever since, and this will just bring it all back to her. I hope she finds some peace. A good point that's been overlooked. As this was such a high profile case & will always shift units the newspapers nust have her number of speed-dial. At what point do the public become part of the problem & people should just say 'Leave the poor woman alone, let her get on with her life without constant reminders'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Tbh I just feel sprry for the mother, she's had a pretty shit life ever since, and this will just bring it all back to her. I hope she finds some peace. A good point that's been overlooked. As this was such a high profile case & will always shift units the newspapers nust have her number of speed-dial. At what point do the public become part of the problem & people should just say 'Leave the poor woman alone, let her get on with her life without constant reminders'. Â It'll never happen though. For whatever reason, people can't get enough of child abuse. Housewives and other assorted morons lap this shit up. I'm still stunned at how popular all those "Stop it Daddy, It Hurts" books are. And the press remind me of that cliche about the devil, his greatest trick was convincing the world he didn't exist and all that. They whip up all manner of "controversy" and hysteria, yet somehow remain invisible (in the eyes of the average member of the public) regarding their part in it. It's like these media storms happen all on their own and the papers are there by coincidence. Nobody really bothers calling out the media on invasion of privacy or hounding people anymore, because we're all so used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I know/knew 10 year olds who were fully aware of the world and were still evil little fuckwits. Oh sure its because of how they were brought up (usually, though I have known people brought up well turn out to be dicks), but it doesnt stop them being evil. That said, I agree that it would be more important to try to rehabilitate them from the shitty upbringing, at least give them the chance to change the direction they are taking. I feel the same about the 2 kids here in doncaster, what they did was evil, but they didnt have much of a chance with how their mum and dad treat them.  It's a difficult issue; of course the parents in both cases are contemptible cunts who should be strung up, but IMO some people, kids or not, are just wired wrong - the capability to do something as evil as that has to be there in the first place, because there are plenty of people who've had shitty upbringings and yet don't murder or torture small children.  For that reason, there has to be an element of punishment as well as rehabilitation in these sentences - like it or not, they are culpable for their actions and need to know that they'll have consequences. Allowing both of those men to live their entire adult lives as free men is no punishment at all, in my opinion. The fact that Venables has apparently gone on to re-offend seems to show that he's not yet been effectively taught that his actions will have consequences. Erm, they were punished. They were sentenced and served their time. They'll have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives. Do you really think Thomson and Venebles are living the high life now, chuckling about their youthful indiscretion? You say 're-offend', like he's gone out and killed another kid. He could have just failed to report back to the prison on time or something, y'know.   As far as I'm concerned, 8 years (in a unit without the punitive environment of adult prison) is not a punishment that fit the crime - they didn't lose a day of their adult lives, and probably had a much more comfortable childhood and better care inside than they would have had on the outside. In my view, 'justice' has to include some measure of retribution for the victim - in this case, the sentence was entirely waited towards making sure the offenders were alright with no care towards the victim. I honestly don't know whether they're regretting their actions or 'living the high life, chuckling about their youthful indiscretions' now, because I can't fathom the mindset of the kind of sick cunt who does that to a toddler. That they had the chance to live a full, uninhibited adult life that they didn't allow James Bulger is not even close to justice, IMO.  Though I take what the tabloids say with a pinch of salt, the reports today suggest Venables is still a fucked-up individual with every chance of posing a danger to society. Even if they're wide of the mark, I think it's highly unlikely that he'd be summarily marched back to prison and the story leaked to the press for something as inconsequential as failing to report to his parole officer on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 probably had a much more comfortable childhood and better care inside than they would have had on the outside. In my view, 'justice' has to include some measure of retribution for the victim - in this case, the sentence was entirely waited towards making sure the offenders were alright with no care towards the victim  I think that if it actually was the case that as children they had better care inside than they would outside it says more about their standard of home life rather than a case of young offenders istitutes being 'cushy'.  I'm assuming you're referring to them having to be given anonimty when you said the sentence was 'weighted towards making sure the offenders were alright'? I've already stated why this was given. I'm not making any apolgies for the killers but I also hold little respect for the British tabloids or their readership. Most are reactionaries who want quick, simple answers to complicated issues.  Though I take what the tabloids say with a pinch of salt, the reports today suggest Venables is still a fucked-up individual with every chance of posing a danger to society. Even if they're wide of the mark, I think it's highly unlikely that he'd be summarily marched back to prison and the story leaked to the press for something as inconsequential as failing to report to his parole officer on time.  Again, they're in the business of selling papers. No-one wants to hear that after years of counselling he could be a well balanced bloke with huge remorse for the atrocity he committed as child. People want to hear stories of evil monsters lurking on every street corner. It would've made the news if one of the killers had supposedly bought a packet of fags in a shop near a school or been 'seen' in a shopping centre. Whether this would make the front page depends of course on whether Big Brother was on TV, or what was happening in the love lives of our national football team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 probably had a much more comfortable childhood and better care inside than they would have had on the outside. In my view, 'justice' has to include some measure of retribution for the victim - in this case, the sentence was entirely waited towards making sure the offenders were alright with no care towards the victim  I think that if it actually was the case that as children they had better care inside than they would outside it says more about their standard of home life rather than a case of young offenders istitutes being 'cushy'.  I'm assuming you're referring to them having to be given anonimty when you said the sentence was 'weighted towards making sure the offenders were alright'? I've already stated why this was given. I'm not making any apolgies for the killers but I also hold little respect for the British tabloids or their readership. Most are reactionaries who want quick, simple answers to complicated issues.   Not so much the anonymity, more the lightness of the sentences and shortness of the period of incarceration. For me, if you're going to lock someone up, the sentence should be based on two things: (i) how much of the offender's own freedom should be lost to make up for what he's taken from the victims, and for him to atone for his crime; and (ii) how long a period of incarceration/treatment is needed to successfully rehabilitate the offender for re-entry into society. In my view, the only thing that was taken into consideration for the sentencing of these two was the latter, with no emphasis at all on them suffering for their crime or justice being seen to be done for the victim.  I'm not advocating that their identities should be released to face the wrath of mob justice, but that they should have been punished properly and firmly within the system, and certainly not allowed to live the full, free adult life that they denied their victim and his family. I know they were young, but I'll never be convinced that they didn't know right from wrong or aren't culpable.  Again, they're in the business of selling papers. No-one wants to hear that after years of counselling he could be a well balanced bloke with huge remorse for the atrocity he committed as child. People want to hear stories of evil monsters lurking on every street corner. It would've made the news if one of the killers had supposedly bought a packet of fags in a shop near a school or been 'seen' in a shopping centre. Whether this would make the front page depends of course on whether Big Brother was on TV, or what was happening in the love lives of our national football team.  The story that's now been picked up by the TV news is that he's a drug addict with a history of violent altercations - if this is the case, then the system that declared the bloke 'sufficiently rehabilitated' after that pathetic 8 year sentence is severely in the wrong and needs to be turned on its arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Hamptons Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Interesting point brought up by Martin Brunt. About 1,000 people go to prison in a week - how hard would it be to find any Scousers in their late twenties with a shit attitude? His anonymity's at serious risk now.  They have both lost there Scouse accents acording to this article  Good Read  It was writtian in 2001 though... Still i was 13 at the time of these killings, still cant get my head around why they would want to do it, dont think anyone does to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members seph Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 The story that's now been picked up by the TV news is that he's a drug addict with a history of violent altercations - if this is the case, then the system that declared the bloke 'sufficiently rehabilitated' after that pathetic 8 year sentence is severely in the wrong and needs to be turned on its arse. Â No mention will be made of whether he provoked those, or if - the more likely case - people figured out who we was and had a pop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DJ Kris Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why do people think they should know who these 2 are now? What do they expect to gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why do people think they should know who these 2 are now? What do they expect to gain? Â Well, I'd be annoyed if I found out I'd voted for one of them on the X-Factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DJ Kris Posted March 4, 2010 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why do people think they should know who these 2 are now? What do they expect to gain? Â Well, I'd be annoyed if I found out I'd voted for one of them on the X-Factor. Not half as annoyed as Simon would when they do the week where they go back to where they grew up and visit their old school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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