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Egg Shen

MMA: Past Fight Discussion

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Yeah by 2003/04 the shine had well come off for Tito. The decisive losses to Chuck and Randy plus the stink of him having dodged defending the belt against Chuck for so long. 

You‚Äôre right Jim. I didn‚Äôt realise how much the landscape changed at 205 around that time. From 2004 onwards the main talking point was ‚ÄėWho would win - Chuck or Wanderlei?‚Äô While Tito¬†got lost in the shuffle going tooth and nail with Forrest Griffin and Rashad Evans.¬†

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12 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

This whole image/gimmick was perfect for the time, just as the WWF Attitude era was starting to cool down and there was probably a decent crossover of wrestling fans who were pulled in by Tito’s schtick. 

Aye, I was one of them. 

As much as I hate to admit it, Ortiz was the first MMA fighter that I supported, and he was ultimately the reason I became a committed fan of the sport  UFC 51 was the first full MMA show I watched and Tito was the only name I recognised on the card. I had heard about his feud with Shamrock through PowerSlam and other pro wrestling publications. On the night, I appreciated that he spoke out against the Iraq War after beating Belfort. 

It was because of that show that I took up following MMA properly. I watched UFC 52 and became a fan of Liddell and GSP. I also went on forums and started following Pride, which led to me becoming a fan of Barnett and Sergei. It's possible that none of this would have happened without the Tito and Shamock feud. 

I even remained a fan of Tito when he returned to the UFC in 2006. He came across really well on TUF 3. It was only in later years that I began to sour on him. 

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Your story probably echoes a lot of long term MMA fans. Not many would probably like to admit it but Tito Ortiz was the gateway to a lot of people becoming fans. He probably wasn’t the reason they stayed fans but chances are he sparked the initial interest or something he was involved with did. Whether it was his antics, the Shamrock thing, TUF 3 or the Chuck/Randy fights. He was front and centre of most of the big shit going down in the UFC in the early 2000s. 

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Gateway fighters is the perfect way to describe him. When i got into MMA he was the main man in terms of rivalries. Tito/Randy was happening, that led into Tito/Chuck and i caught up on the Tito/Ken stuff at the same time. He was the fighter who established storylines for you to follow. I probably wouldnt have got into the sport when did if it wasnt for Tito.

Ortiz' run between '04 & '06 is underrated too. I think most people point at his early years as his prime, but how he regrouped from the Couture/Liddell losses is decent. Belfort, Griffin, Cote and 2 Ken squashes is a decent stretch, Tito was still amongst the top guys in the sport at that time. The Belfort win in particular is underrated, no one talks about that one.

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12 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

The Belfort win in particular is underrated, no one talks about that one.

I think that is because Belfort was in the middle of a rough patch where he lost to every decent fighter he faced. He'd just been soundly beaten badly by Couture, and would go on to lose definitively to Overeem and Hendo. By contrast, he was competitive against Tito, clearly winning round 2 against him.

Tito did give Liddell a decent fight in their rematch though. Many thought Ortiz won round 2 and he landed some decent punches in the 3rd round before Liddell stopped him. Tito apparently trained like a mad man for that fight. 

I forgot to mention the role that the Bravo Channel played in me becoming a fan of the sport. I recall that some UFC events were shown on PPV by Setanta Sport in 2004. I would not have seen UFC 51 had it been on PPV. There was no way that I was coughing up £15 for a promotion I was not familiar with, even with Ortiz's name value. Thus, Bravo showing the event on regular Sky was crucial to my interest in the sport. As was their coverage of the promotion over the next 2 years or so. 

 

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@wandshogun09

Quote

On the Fedor vs Cro Cop thing though. I wasn’t so much comparing them in terms of the threat Cro Cop posed to Fedor vs the threat Ferguson poses to Khabib. More just that it’s THE two best guys in a division facing off in their primes. The reason I feel like this is slightly bigger is that they’re both on long streaks in arguably the deepest division in the sport. Whereas Cro Cop had been knocked spark out by Kevin Randleman the year before the Fedor fight and had the loss to Nogueira as well. Not a knock, you know I love Mirko. But as huge as Fedor vs Cro Cop was in 2005, imagine how monstrous it would’ve seemed if Cro Cop was coming in off a streak and had beaten Nog? 

Thought I would respond to this in here so not to derail the Ferguson vs Khabib thread. I needed to bump the thread to complete my 2-part post about the UFC in 2003 anyway. 

I don't think the losses to Randleman and Nogueira dented Cro Cop's aura much. Firstly, Cro Cop looked like a killer in the Nogueria bout. He beat the living piss out of the Brazilian before he got caught with an armbar. It should also be remembered that Cro Cop had only been a pro for 2 years prior to that bout. It stood to reason that he would tighten up his ground defence in the years to come and become an even more formidable opponent. 

The Randleman defeat in April of 2004 was a huge set-back. However, it's not like Mikro was beaten up by Randleman for 15 straight minutes and numerous holes in his game exposed in the process. As Jordan Breen notes in this article, that loss was somewhat written off at the time as him getting caught with a single punch - https://www.espn.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=4502611 

Moreover, while the Randleman bout took place only 16 months before the Fedor vs Cro Cop encounter, a lot happened between that time. Cro Cop fought 6 times between April 2004 and August of 2005 - in which time he blitzed Coleman, avenged the loss to Randleman, scored a stunning head kick knockout over Aleksander Emelianenko, and massacred one of Fedor's training partners (Magomedov).  

To put it mildly, fighters were far more active in the mid-2000s and the sport moved along a lot quicker. Ferguson's last 6 fights date back to December 2015. At which time, he was little more than a mid-carder who was starting to put a run together. It has therefore taken Ferguson around the same amount of fights to establish himself as the primary threat to Khabib's throne as it took for Cro Cop to rebuild his aura after the Randleman loss. In short, Cro Cop had firmly reestablished himself by the time he fought Fedor and his prior losses were all but forgotten.

Furthermore, there was also a lot of the speculation in the mid-2000s that Fedor was ducking Cro Cop. At one point or another, Fedor was accused of trying to leave Pride, faking injuries, and having his Brother fight on his behalf - all to avoid fighting Mirko. These rumours, while mostly bollocks, did heighten the anticipation for the fight. 

Edited by jimufctna24

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i recommend you all take 12 minutes out of your day to appreciate the UFC run and life of Tim Sylvia:

 

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On 3/28/2020 at 9:42 AM, Egg Shen said:

i recommend you all take 12 minutes out of your day to appreciate the UFC run and life of Tim Sylvia:

 

I wonder why they didn't mention his third encounter with Arlovski? Or the literal stinker with Assuerio Silva? 

In all seriousness, that was a decent little watch. 

Timmy omits a few details about his release from the UFC though. The UFC told his manager (Monte Cox) that they had no plans to renew Sylvia's contract once it had expired. At the time, Timmy had only one fight left on his contract, for which the UFC planned to bury on the prelims. It was only after all this came to light that Sylvia asked for his release. 

Edited by jimufctna24

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Inspired by the Co-Main Event podcast, who last week re-watched UFC 1 for their latest episode, I decided to watch UFC 2, which I haven't seen before. Some thoughts as I went through:

Commentator Ben Perry. Are we sure this isn't Daniel O'Donnell? Brian Kilmeade doesn't have the first notion what he's watching. He doesn't even know the name of the promotion.

At least Big John McCarthy is here. 

- It's a sixteen man tournament, and the first bout we see is the last of the prelims, Royce Gracie Vs Ichihara. Apparently Ichihara is a "living legend" in his hometown. That's going to be a disappointed town. Ichihara holds on for dear life, making Royce take five minutes or so to beat him, but beat him he does, to no surprise. 

--Pat Smith absolutely pisses through Robert Morris with vicious punches and elbows on the ground. 

--Johnny Rhodes Vs Fred Ettish. Ettish offers a couple of leg kicks to open up, but when Rhodes connects with a punch on him, Ettish is in a world of hurt. He takes some knees and punches on the ground, has zero defence for a choke attempt by Rhodes and has no choice but to tap. 

-Orlando Weit Vs Remco Pardoel

Weit looked really impressive in the highlights of his opening bout. He also looks to be in great shape, cosmetically at least. Remco is the much larger man, and ends up on top, not good for Weit. He rains down back elbows on Weit, who actually looks dead. Rumour has it, that to get him up out of the Octagon they had to use a spatula. Rough stuff right here. 

Jason DeLucia Vs Royce Gracie

Anyone want to guess what happened here? Royce rips Kung Fu Jason's arm off. No, you're not getting a point for getting that right. 

Pat Smith Vs Johnny Rhodes

Both men picking their shots here on the feet before Smith gets an opening to put Rhodes in a standing guillotine and that's all she wrote. I'll guess Smith will have liked winning this one with a submission.

Royce Gracie Vs Remco Pardoel

Using Remco's Gi, Royce chokes Remco out in short order. He took Pardoel's back, and Pardoel didn't stand a chance. He wasn't going to elBow Royce Gracie into a pancake that's for sure.

Kenny Sham's is here doing an interview! He'll be back soon. 

Royce Gracie Vs Pat Smith

I haven't seen this before, but I could see it being Gracie's most competitive fight to date. . .well, I was wrong there. Bi Jaysus that didn't take long, did it? Royce takes Smith down without too much trouble, easily slides into mount, lands a few punches to the face, and Smith's corner throws in the towel. Skinny pyjama man is 7-0 in the UFC. The interviewer says he's the Ultimate Warrior, or Ultimate Champion. He can't decide which. In my life, I've never seen a man that looks less like Jim Hellwig, than Royce Gracie. 

Royce is the clear star of the early days for UFC, but Smith and Shamrock clearly show they are going to be hanging about and will develop. What's also clear is that the commentary, ring announcer's and interviewers are entirely inept and haven't a clue what they're watching, the name of the promotion or show, or possibly even what day of the week it is. Shambles. When Jim Brown with possible extensive head trauma, is your best person with a microphone, you know where you need to put the work in. 

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that's quality, id happily go back and watch entire fights in ref cam mode

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That guy has been tweeting old fight clips non-stop. Fair fucks he’s more dedicated than me. I’ve fallen right behind on my Top 50. 

This was a good/forgotten one as well...

Still probably my favourite UFC Flyweight fight and it was right at the start of that division’s existence. I don’t think it’s been topped since in terms of sheer excitement. I miss John Lineker almost as much as he missed weight. 

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Finally got round to watching this bout from September 2018. 

A few notes:

- The fight hung in the balance until the final minute, where Nasukawa landed a flying wheel kick that hurt Horiguchi. Going into that final round, two of the judges had the fight even.

- It was near impossible to split them in rounds 1 and 2. They both landed decent shots in round 1 and round 2 was a mess due to Nasukawa landing low on Horiguchi twice.

- I personally scored it a draw (29-29). I had Horiguchi edging round 1, scored round 2 even, and gave round 3 to Tenshin. But admittedly, Nasukawa deserved the victory due to his flurry late in round 3.

- For Horiguchi to run Nasukawa so close speaks volumes about his ability. Tenshin is generally considered to be one of the best kickboxers on the planet. I've seen pound 4 pound lists that rank him in the top 5. 

- In a large ring or circular cage, there is no Bantamweight or Flyweight in the UFC that I would pick to beat Horiguchi in a kickboxing bout. 

- The Rizin Confession series shows how the fight looked up close - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR0kR28DNAE

 

Edited by jimufctna24

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