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MMA: Past Fight Discussion


Egg Shen

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Good read that. The Lindland/Baroni series is a forgotten gem of a feud. That was going on when i started to watch the sport and it really grabbed me when i was getting hold of that initial batch of DVD's that got released over here. Lindland really is a forgotten man of the sport.

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They were both really, really good fights as well. Well, I haven’t seen them in years so I don’t know how well they hold up now but I loved both the Lindland vs Baroni fights when I saw them. Think I’ll have to give them another look soon. 

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14 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Lindland really is a forgotten man of the sport.

Indeed, he was seen by many fans and websites as the best MW in the world in the mid 2000s. 

For example, these were MMAWeekly's Middleweight Rankings for December of 2006:

Quote

MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION (185-pound limit)

#1 Middleweight Fighter in the World: Matt Lindland

2. Anderson Silva

3. Paulo Filho

4. Kazuo Misaki

5. Rich Franklin

6. Dan Henderson

7. Denis Kang

8. Nathan Marquardt

9. Jeremy Horn

10. Amar Suloev

 

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Apologies, I made an error in my post about 2003. 

Baroni actually lost his unbeaten record in late 2001 when he first lost to Lindland. The 2003 bout was actually a rematch between the pair. I seem to remember that the first bout was more exciting with Baroni rallying late and Lindland holding on for dear life. 

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Lindland sits just below UFC HOF status for me. Team Quest at the time was Couture, Henderson & Lindland but Lindland lacked the charm and likeability of Couture & Henderson to really endure him to fans. If there was a title reign amongst his resume i think he'd be a shoe-in.

His actual career is littered with controversy and bad losses aswell. I think most people recollections of Lindland are defeats he suffered.

Robbie Lawler & Vitor Belfort laying him out. 

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The controversial loss to Fedor where Fedor got away with a blatant rope grab to prevent a takedown.

A split decision loss to Rampage that most thought he won.

Knocking himself out against Falaniko Vitale.

Submitted twice in his title challenge to Bustamante.

Murilo-Bustamante-vs.-Matt-Lindland1.jpg

I think if anyone who remembers Lindland is asked to bring up a Lindland memory those are the things they'd list.

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Dave Terrell also knocked him out in the summer of 2004. After that loss, he didn't lose again at middleweight until late 2009. His only losses during that 5 year period were all contested at weights above 185lbs.

There was a documentary made about Lindland in the mid-2000s. I have not seen it, but I seem to recall that it covers his fractious relationship with the UFC. There was always speculation that the UFC protected Franklin from Lindland. It was claimed that Franklin was more marketable for the UFC as middleweight champion. Hence why the UFC stopped booking Lindland in mid-2005 after he had established himself as the division's number 1 contender. 

I can't remember how true these claims are. What I do remember is the absurd conspiracy, which is still floated today, that Shamrock took a dive for Franklin in early 2005. I mean, I can believe that the UFC gave Franklin special treatment, but I don't think they needed to take measures to ensure that Shamrock would lose to him. Franklin was perfectly able to take care of Shamrock by himself. 

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yeh, i dont really recall the details but i do vaguely remember Lindland's poor relationship with the UFC. It probably one of the reasons hes a forgotten man, his history has been buried.

I do remember Franklin/Shamrock though, something definitely shady about that fight. Shamrock's thrown a few in his time for my money.

Edited by Egg Shen
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Belfort’s knockout on Lindland might well have been the scariest in MMA history. It’s definitely up there. Stiff as a board, legs twitching, eyes open, the lot. Seem to remember he was down for ages as well. And when he got up he looked about a decade older. And he wasn’t the most youthful looking bloke at the best of times. 

But if you’d stuck a microphone to his mouth when he eventually got up, I bet he’d still have been able to string a more coherent sentence together than Tito ‘Seraldo Babalu’ Ortiz on commentary that night. 

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After the past few years, Tito is the last fighter I could feel sympathy for.

He's received a perfect send-off to his career on national TV, scored a win over his nemesis who he would have never beaten in their primes , and has just been paid handsomely to batter an ageing pro wrestler at an event that drew a record 3 million TV viewers in Mexico. 

For a complete dimwit, who was also arguably done as a serious contender some 13 years ago, he's most certainly punched above his weight in recent years in terms of status and fight purses. He's perhaps the most unlikely winner in MMA history. 

Edited by jimufctna24
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I must admit that I never quite got the "legend" moniker that so many gave Ortiz, mainly because I wasn't watching MMA when he was on top. But his prime seemed to be so short, and he lost to so many who'd be seen as a step up, like Couture, Liddell, and the Greater Shamrock, that, for anyone catching his later career or just looking at his record, he comes across as a gatekeeper who got higher than he should've done.

But I'm well aware that this is probably an unfair assessment; there must be a reason why people thought he was a great at one point.

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While not always the most entertaining to watch bell to bell, Tito was dominant for a spell and beat pre-prime Wanderlei Silva in 2000. A bloody rotten fight but a win that looked better for Tito’s resume in retrospect given what Wandy went on to do from 2001 to 2005 in Pride. Tito’s wins over Evan Tanner, Vladimir Matyushenko, Yuki Kondo were all solid scalps at the time as well. 

The main things with Tito though were;

1) He was one of, if not the first MMA fighter to have that superstar aura in the early days of the sport. He had a distinctive and marketable look with the bleach blonde hair and the shorts with the flame design. He also talked shit and had that goofy grave digging routine he did during his post-fight celebrations and the crap homemade t-shirts mocking his opponents. Like this one when he fought Guy Mezger. 

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This whole image/gimmick was perfect for the time, just as the WWF Attitude era was starting to cool down and there was probably a decent crossover of wrestling fans who were pulled in by Tito’s schtick. He was pure pro wrestling really. 

2) The whole Ken Shamrock feud. It’s kind of been rewritten over the years because Dana hates Tito (he’s had his issues with Ken as well) but even Lorenzo Fertitta has gone on record saying the first Ortiz vs Shamrock fight at UFC 40 was a huge turning point for the company. Dana talks about TUF 1 and Griffin vs Bonnar and Chuck Liddell. And rightly so. All that played a huge part. But Tito vs Ken predates all of that. If it wasn’t for Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock, the UFC mightn’t have survived until 2005 for TUF 1. 

F6-DA8-FEB-1-BB2-46-EA-8-DD4-27-ABD9-E81

I wasn’t even following MMA in 2002. I was still heavily into wrestling. Was doing Muay Thai on and off and just properly getting back into watching Boxing off the back of the Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson fight and the first Arturo Gatti vs Mickey Ward classic that year. But even I was aware of the Tito vs Ken thing. Part down to the intrigue of seeing the WWF’s ‘World’s Most Dangerous Man’ back in real fighting. Part hearing about this bleached headed twat mouthing off and knowing old Kenneth would make him pay. Then I forgot the fight was happening and woke up one weekend, went online and saw pictures of Ken’s mangled face. 

9-FF6-D8-F6-5-BB0-4-BF3-B4-B0-82-AD0-A4-

Of course, they went on to do more big business for the UFC. Including a hugely successful stint as opposing coaches on TUF 3 in 2006. Their second and third fights were right letdowns, both ending really quick with Tito just squashing Kenny. 

Tito’s become the butt of a lot of jokes over recent years but he did a lot for the sport at a crucial time. 1999-2002 was a dark period for the UFC and they were struggling badly. Tito, more than anyone else, kept them afloat at that time and got them off life support with the Shamrock fights. And without him, I dare say Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture wouldn’t have been nearly as popular as they became at that time either. Tito’s a massive twat. I’ll never be a fan. But he did a lot for MMA, wrecked his body in the process and I honestly think he deserves the ‘legend’ moniker. 

Edited by wandshogun09
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12 hours ago, Carbomb said:

I must admit that I never quite got the "legend" moniker that so many gave Ortiz, mainly because I wasn't watching MMA when he was on top. But his prime seemed to be so short, and he lost to so many who'd be seen as a step up, like Couture, Liddell, and the Greater Shamrock, that, for anyone catching his later career or just looking at his record, he comes across as a gatekeeper who got higher than he should've done.

But I'm well aware that this is probably an unfair assessment; there must be a reason why people thought he was a great at one point.

He did score some top-quality wins between 1999 and 2002. These included victories over Wanderlei, Kondo, Tanner, Mezger and Matyushenko. At the time, he was rubbing shoulders with the likes of Sakuraba, Hughes, Big Nog, etc on P4P lists. 

However, the MMA landscape changed a lot between late 2002 and mid-2004. Firstly, Tito's UFC career suffered several setbacks. He ducked defending his title against Liddell, got grapplefucked by Couture for 5 straight rounds in a unification bout, and then got knocked out by Chuck in April of 2004. Secondly, Wanderlei's fighting style worked better in the ring than it did in the cage. He was therefore able to recover from his earlier losses to Belfort and Ortiz, and firmly establish himself as the best light heavyweight in the world. Rampage had also arrived on the scene and was commanding a lot of attention.

Thus, Ortiz went from being perceived as the outright best in the division to being seen as yesterday's man. You could reasonably argue that he went from number 1 in the division to number 5 or 6 in the space of 18 months. I think the way in which his career declined, in particular the way in which he ducked Liddell, made people forget what he achieved earlier in his career. Don't get me wrong, he was overrated when he was on top - but he did score some very legitimate victories and was a world-class fighter for the standards of the time. 

Or aye, what @wandshogun09 said. 

 

Edited by jimufctna24
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