MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[jimufctna24]

I always thought he was small for 205lbs, 185lbs he could have been a killer when he was younger. Another thing, the Sakara fight at the time I was not sold on him based on, Sakara has a right glass jaw on him as much as I like him.Agreed in general, he had a aura about him.

[Egg Shen]

there's also the myth that went around that Houston having many more fights thst were on his record...it was 'Houstons been knocking people out in un-sanctioned fights for years'...it all added up.The Kimbo fight remains one of the strangest MMA fights ever, Houston bricked it that night.

[jimufctna24]

The Kimbo fight remains one of the strangest MMA fights ever, Houston bricked it that night.

I think he over thought things with that constant circling. Edited June 21, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

I might actually put myself through Kimbo vs Houston again later if I get the telly to myself. If I remember right the second round was quite entertaining, it was just sandwiched between two rounds that were absolute steaming turd. That fight should have been an awesome one rounder along the lines of Diaz vs Daley, Kongo vs Barry and Arlovski vs Sylvia 2. I don't think there's a single fan who expected a boring three round decision out of that.

[Egg Shen]

i was fucking pumped! Kimbo was coming off the Nelson mauling on TUF, but when they announced Houston/Kimbo i think everyone thought it was going to be the craziest fight ever, then Houston circled, then he circled, then he circled some more. It got good in round 2 when Kimbo got his hands on him and he slammed fuck outta Houston, then it went back to circling. Houston was coming off a 3 fight skid in the UFC and had a fight against Sherman Pendergahst (RIP) in between them and the Kimbo fight and i remember it, Houston fought very reserved landing leg kicks and won via TKO in the end, he obviously tried to put the same gameplan in action against Kimbo...it just seemed like a farce at the time. Ended Alexander's UFC career for good too.As wand. said though, his fight with Sokoudjou a couple of years ago was great, one of the best comebacks ive ever seen.

[wandshogun09]

Houston vs Sokoudjou was made even better by having Bas Rutten and a tanked up Don Frye on commentary as well.

[jimufctna24]

Babulu - Back In His Prime

 

 

It would be all too easy for me to write a piece about Babulu career and include his downfall as a fighter. Such was the length of Sobral's career after he reached his peak, I feel it would be a bit depressing and overly familiar to write about a fighter on the decline, especially after the woeful display that Babulu offered us in his retirement bout still being so fresh in MMA fans memories. For the sake of clarity, I will cover the golden years of Sobral, which I consider to be from the first Liddel fight to the second Liddel fight. So from late 2002 to around mid 2006.

 

Babulu was never a elite level striker or as celebrated a wrestler as say Tito Ortiz or Randy Couture, but at his peak he mixed with some tough operators in the 205lbs weight-class that even a decade ago showed a great deal of depth and talent. The 6th of September 2003 may be the golden night of Babulu's career. In one night he beat the tough and durable wrestler Trevor Prangley, won the final against Jeremy Horn who was at his peak and considered to be one of the best fighters of that era, and most famously submitted a very young Shogun Rua who even back then was being primed for a run in Pride due to his Chute Boxe connections and clear potential.

 

These scalps would read like a "who's who" of talent even if they were spread over a year, maybe even two but one night? It can not be underestimated that beating those 3 took a great deal of consistency and adaption. All 3 are very legit but different fighters, Prangley the wrestler, Shogun the aggressive yet inexperienced striker and Horn the seasoned and well rounded generalist. The fact that two of these fights went the distance and the other went well into the third round before Babulu scored a submission is testament to the cardio of Babulu also. The adaption also shows his skill-set was one that could work in various scenarios and that it would take something special for Babulu to be beaten on that night.

 

I would wager only maybe a Liddel or Couture from that era that could show that type of consistency to achieve such a feat that Sobral did that night, it is fair to assume that a Ortiz, Belfort or Henderson would slip up and lose to one of them at some stage. Despite not being as celebrated as much as some of the bigger names if the UFC and Pride, I think Babulu was elite at this stage of his career, we are talking top 5 stuff.

 

The quality of names thrown at Babulu were not to the high level in the next few years, but he did not slip up and lose to any of them showing great maturity and concentration in his work. Why Pride did not snap him up in late 2003 or why it took the UFC until April 2005 to give him a call I do not know, instead Babulu beat the at the time severely limited Diabate of current UFC fame and Wandshogun09 favorite commentator Pierre Guillet in Wandshogun09 favorite promotion Cage Rage. Unlike Anderson who found his feet and gained confidence in the London promotion, Babulu was wasted at this level at this point in time and deserved a big run in Japan or a return to the UFC.

 

The return to the UFC came, and he was needed. Ortiz had left and they had to draft in the now aging Horn to fight Liddel such was the lack of depth at 205lbs. Babulu was fed some modest talent likes Travis Wiuff and Mike Van Arsdale both of which he impressed in by scoring some decent submission with his at this stage outstanding grappling. It would be a amiss if I did not mention he beat Chael Sonnen here as well. Again it could be argued that Sonnen was a better wrestler than Babulu, yet Babulu was able to outgrapple and submit Sonnen. This showed that no matter how the fight hit the ground Babulu was at a edge with his slick submission game.

 

All of this built up Babulu nicely. 3 wins made him stand out enough for UFC to grant him a shot at Chuck Liddel who had knocked him for a birdie 4 years earlier. This night was the defining night of Babulu's career, at this stage he was probably at his peak and his tried and tested grappling game was well respected enough for hardcore MMA fans to give Sobral a modest chance of beating Liddel.

 

It would be romanticized for me to say in retrospect he should have won, if one style was going to defeat Babulu it would be a outstanding striking game that can continue non stop for 25 mins without need for clinch work or offensive takedowns being used to enhance the predictibiltiy of it, coupled with razor sharp TDD. Liddel at this point appeared to offer just this.

 

However, whilst it could be possible Liddel's demise of nature had not set in like it clearly was a year later, another reason why Sobral could have potentially won was that Chuck came in looking like he was paying tribute to Frank Mir the months previous. Liddel had a sizable paunch of him that would make vain men (like myself) cringe, he did not look like a athlete at all or one that could fight for 25 minutes. Whether he could we shall never know for sure.

 

Babulu baffled many by playing right into Liddel, he chased the best back foot striker in MMA seemingly with his hands down. It was like akamikaze mission as Liddel landed freely with his trademark counters on the back foot that sent Babulu on queer street where he would not recover as Liddel being a fantastic finisher polished him of with a barrage of punches whilst Babulu was sprawled out on the canvas.

 

If Babulu would have been patient, maybe took a few rounds as a hit whilst he let Chuck tire out chasing him, Sobral could have been playing with a tired man come rounds 4 and 5, a tired man who he could attack and maybe takedown and submit with relative ease. It is all speculation and we will never know, but looking at Liddel at the weigh in, Babulu should have been licking his chops.

 

Instead the end came to the peak of Babulu, who had his prime in a much more unpublished way to Ortiz, Couture and Liddel stateside. Was he as good as the three mentioned? Liddel I feel no, the other two I would say yes if we examine the evidence we have now, but that is a head to head to analyse another day. In short, Babulu never got that major win over a Tito or Couture to make the masses remember how talented he was during his peak, but those few who remember that night in September 2003 will recognize he was something pretty good at his best.

Edited June 22, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Nice post. And I agree, it didn't end ideally for Babalu, it rarely does for any fighter, but he had a very good career and holds wins over some top names. I definitely agree that September 6th 2003 was his finest hour. That was the one night tournament IFC: Global Domination. I got the DVD on eBay a few years ago for about

Edited June 23, 2013 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

Nice post.

Come on now, I wanted a reaction for insisting you loved Pierre Guillet and D.O.D.

 

I watched the IFC tourney on some small Sky Channel back in 2005 when I first got into MMA, I remember seeing highlights of Horn knocking out Forrest and I seem to recall Shogun having a early lead on Babulu, until Sobral came back later in the fight.

 

I did not want to venture in 2007, as that would have been a bit depressing, the Jason Lambert fight was the first time as a MMA fan I just felt a bit weathered with the entire sport for a brief second. Of course Couture beating Sylvia later in the evening turned the tables, but there was something dire in seeing Babulu knocked out by a mid-tier guy like Lambert, Babulu looked old that night as well. The Heath thing I was not offended by, but could see why others were.

 

His early years could be covered by someone else in more depth, as I have no identity with them, so any critical analysis and style in my pots would be missing, and I would be speculating on pure record reading that would make for a dull post.

[wandshogun09]

Ha, I deliberately didn't bite. With Pierre Guillet, it's really just his coma inducing commentary I don't like. He might be the nicest bloke on Earth for all I know, but he's a fuck-awful commentator, there's no getting around it.

 

There's something about the shape of his head that doesn't sit right with me as well.

 

 

He always reminds me of Master Onion off the old Parappa the Rapper games;

 

[wandshogun09]

Ben Fowlkes has written a good article on Babalu on MMAJunkie;

 

He told himself that no matter how things turned out, this would be his last trip through the ringer.

 

It seemed fitting to end on a tournament, the same way he'd started some 13 years earlier, with a three-fights-in-one-night kind of deal back home in Rio de Janeiro. Back before anyone knew who Renato Sobral was.

 

So at 37 years old, "Babalu" enlisted for one more tour of duty in Bellator's light heavyweight "Summer Series" tournament and promised himself that win or lose he'd call it quits when his run ended.

 

When he sat down at the post-fight press conference, "I knew something was going to come out of my mouth," Sobral (37-11) told MMAjunkie.com (mmajunkie.com). "But it wasn't like, I lost so I'm retired. It wasn't like that."

 

What did come out of his mouth that night was an emotional goodbye to a sport he loved.

 

"I wish I could have been faster," Sobral said after his third-round TKO loss to Jacob Noe at Bellator 96 this past week. "I wish I could have been stronger than I used to be. But my body cannot continue to do this anymore, and it's time for me to step out."

 

As he said them, you could hear the words getting caught in his throat. Even though he prepared himself for it, and even though he knew it had to happen eventually, he said, "It was hard."

 

"It's not because I was retiring," Sobral said. "It's hard because for me, fighting and stepping inside the cage, those are the greatest moments of my life. Walking in and having that feeling, you know? To know that it's not going to happen anymore, that hurts me really bad. It hurts me really bad to say it now. But I had to say goodbye. Saying goodbye is never a good thing."

 

He started thinking about it a couple years ago. After he turned 35, he said, he noticed that his body wasn't bouncing back from the rigors of training as easily as it once had. He wasn't as fast or as strong. Then there was what happened to him sometimes in sparring.

 

"One of the things that I noticed is the ability to take [a] punch," Sobral said. "You don't take punches the way you used to. Sometimes a little clip makes me dizzy. Before I used to [be able] to take more. People think it's from fighting, but fighting is just one thing. They don't realize that you get clipped in training way more than you get clipped in the fight sometimes. You get a lot of punches in the head in training. Since I was 11 years old, I've been punched in the head. Now sometimes a little punch makes me dizzy."

 

Stuff like that makes him worry a little about his future, Sobral said. He has two daughters. He has his own school in Cerritos, Calif. He has a lot of life left, and he wants to be fully present for all of it.

 

"I want to be able to see my students, my little kids that I train right now, be champions," said Sobral. "I don't want to have to move around in a wheelchair. I don't think that's going to happen, but I want to be able to do things with my life still."

 

Besides, it's not as if he doesn't have a full career of ups and downs to look back on. His highest moment, he said, is still winning a single-night tournament in the IFC back in September 2003. Two months before that night, his brother died. Then he showed up in Denver and beat Trevor Prangley, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, and Jeremy Horn all in one night.

 

"I think I fought 45 minutes in that one night, and I won the tournament," he said. "That was the best moment. That was the highlight for me."

 

The low point? Probably any one of the times he trained for a fight that didn't happen, which Sobral said happened to him "many, many times" over the course of his career.

 

His last fight won't go down as his best, but even then, he said, he didn't quit. He might have been on shaky legs, due in part to an ankle injury he said he suffered earlier in the fight, "but this is MMA, not boxing. Sometimes you get hurt, get dizzy, and you come back. You see a lot of people come back and finish the fight, but that's the referee's call. It's not going to change. This was my time."

 

And now that it's his time, how will we remember him? What will they say years from now when they tell stories about "Babalu", one of the rare few who started when the sport was still hauling itself out of the primordial ooze, yet kept on winning well into the modern era? What would he have them say, if he had the choice?

 

"I would like people to remember that I was a fighter who put all my heart in my fights," he said. "Every one, even my last one. I always pushed through, always went forward. That's what I want people to remember. I helped this sport and did my share in this sport. I gave my blood in those octagons, those rings. They all have a little piece of my blood, my sweat inside."

 

Never heard that about his brother dying right before the IFC tournament. Makes that achievement all the more impressive.

Edited June 24, 2013 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

Randy Couture - The Biggest Fraud In MMA History

 

 

Pretty strong title huh? No doubt one that would cause many a heated debate in MMA circles.

 

But if we are to believe the general consensus of MMA follows, Couture is the aging father figure of MMA, a humble mans man and one of the greatest fighters to ever compete inside the Octagon. Despite the admittedly blatant smear campaigns from Dana White when it takes his fancy, Couture has remained in the heart of most MMA fans, as both a fighter and a human being. But is this entirely justified on the merit of Couture's success?

 

As a fighter, Couture has put in some magical performances during some of MMA's most memorable moments. To get it out of the way with, exposing Vitor Belfort in the late 90's is the one occasion that I will not dispute Couture being a "master strategist" as he cleverly exposed that Belfort game was not as complete as most thought, and in many ways limited in both technique, cardio and variety.

 

I can not with good faith take away his victories over the forgotten but tough Pedro Rizzo, who was very much the JDS of his day. In their second fight Couture very much playing the role that Cain would play in 2012 over JDS, showed clear superiority as being the better fighter. Please remember that last sentence in my further critic of Couture.

 

Over the years with the pleasure of retrospect, Coutures success elsewhere has been largely romanticized under closer inspection. Firstly, we now have information that we did not have at the time of some of Couture's wins. For example, in 2003 we did not know that Chuck Liddel was such a lazy bastard in training. On that night I strongly believe that if Liddel has put his backside into gear, he would have stopped Couture handily. Joe Rogan mentioned Liddel had "trouble when the alarm clock when off" I would speculate that the hype that went into Liddel from the UFC at this stage (Couture was brought into lose to Liddel) went to Chuck's head and he either got lazy or enjoyed his new status in the Bars a bit too much. I believe Liddel was the better fighter and lost that night, rather than Randy "beating the odds" or having a "master strategy"

 

The retrospect of the Ortiz fight also shows us another chink in the Couture legend. Ortiz when you look at it was never the same after that 2001 surgery, far be it for me to be skeptical but did the Tito who out-wrestled Vlad in 2002 really show up to grapple to that extent again post-2002, I personally doubt it. Throwing round a ancient and limited Ken Shamrock may have given the impression Tito was still at his peak as a wrestler, but further evidence post Couture would show that Tito digressed significantly after 2001/2002. Couture caught Tito at the right time.

 

The Gonzaga fight is another that in retrospect is not impressive as it was at the time. When you think of master strategies in MMA, you think of Shogun figuring at Machida's karate or Fedor pressuring Cro Cop with a come forward style, did it really take any skill or strategy to expose Gonzaga as a flake? My point is in Gonzaga's next fight the at the time light hitting Werdum managed to show that Gonzaga could wilt when under pressure, like worse than Sapp or Lesnar ever did. Couture again was fortunate to come up against a fighter that was bound to be exposed anyway and made to look better than he was because of it. Any aggressive striker or wrestler would have exposed Gonzaga, Couture just got there first.

 

Tim Sylvia is a bit too obvious, if he was in Pride in the mid 00's he would have lost a lot more times than he did, and he should have lost more in the UFC if it was not for a steady opposition of cans, Frank Mir being lazy/injured coupled with a timid and glass jawed Arlovski. It is again a case of Couture getting first dibs, as any decent and athletic MMA wrestler should beat Sylvia handily. Jeff Monson was never much of a takedown artist and Ricco got caught early before he had a chance to exploit Sylvia.

 

So as you see there is not much on Couture's resume that says he beat great fighters due to simply being better, a lot of exposure and circumstance went into Couture's wins. Compare this to say BJ Penn, who beat the likes of Hughes in 2004 , Gomi in 2003 and Sherk in 2008 by simply being the better fighter. Those fighter had no massive weakness yet to be exposed or were injured nor were lazy, Penn was simply better than them. The same goes for Fedor, who dispatched Cro Cop and Big Nog at a time where all 3 were at there peak, working hard and well tested. Fedor was simply the better fighter.

 

Despite the tone of this post, I do not dislike Couture, I think he is a smart man and not a bad human being. I am just pointing out his resume is not as impressive as it reads. When faced with a Liddel who put the hours in, he got knocked out twice, when faced with a Heavyweight with a acceptable grappling game (Lesnar, Ricco or Barnett) he was beaten, when faced with a skilled and tested fighter like Machida he was beaten also. Couture whilst having a tough schedule, did not succeed nowhere near enough to be considered a top 5 or maybe top 10 fighter in my book. Hall Of Famer? Yep he is despite his shortcomings, but American Hero? I dispute that also.

 

If we ignore Dana Whites childish smear campaign, the evidence may point to a questionable character. I say "evidence" but I mean speculation from what we hear and know. Couture gives of the impression he is a good old boy and a decent human being. When interviewed he radiates a aura that he is a "real man" with honesty and integrity. But this is the same man who has isolated most of his friends from previous years and seems to have a hard time in relationships in general.

 

Some of this will not be his fault, a troublesome family life is present if you read his stellar self-biography, and most blame his first wife for their separation, but Randy still cheated on his wife and his former Team Quest teammates do not seem to best keen. Whilst Tito Ortiz and Matt Lindland may not be the most refutable of sources, both have qualms with Randy based on loyalty, Hendo I am not sure where he stands but I heard they do not talk anymore or are really friends. Nate Quarry and Evan Tanner may or may not have had run-ins with him either whilst falling out with Team Quest. Lesnar was also not happy about Overeem training with Couture as well. Many are by Couture's side one moment (like Arlovski in 2006) then distance themselves. There could be a reason for this, if we look at the amount it could be hard to give Randy the benefit of the doubt.

 

I will finish this lengthy post (you can tell I miss writing Uni essays over the Summer) with a comparison. Whilst he was never caught or much was proven (I have reason to believe he was not "Natural" btw), there was/is strong rumors that Couture was on HGH in 2007, and those PED's gave his aging body the strength he needed at Heavyweight. Couture denies this and there is no concrete evidence to suggest other wise, people like myself can only speculate.

 

Another aging American idol who people admired and respected as both a human being and a athlete was Lance Armstrong and we all know about him right? I think both could be more alike than MMA fans would like to think.

Edited June 25, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

There's been a few stories about how ill prepared Chuck Liddell was before that first fight with Randy. Who knows for sure? But I've read that he had a knee injury going in. Also, Dana White said recently on Joe Rogan's podcast that the night before Chuck vs Randy 1, he actually bumped into Chuck in the casino bar at 3am still partying. That's how serious he was taking it. Of course, with Dana's obvious axe to grind where Randy's concerned, who knows how true that is, or if he's just trying to tarnish one of Randy's biggest wins.

 

I agree on the JDS/Pedro Rizzo comparison to an extent, in that Rizzo was the killer striker of the division back then, and JDS has taken that role now. But that's where it ends for me. JDS has proven to be ridiculously mentally strong. You look at most fighters who take a beating like Cain gave JDS in December, they're ruined. They usually come back tentative in their next fight and take 2-3 fights to bounce back, sometimes they never do bounce back mentally. JDS seemed to have an iron focus the second the fight was over. He didn't hang his head or feel sorry for himself, he was vowing to get the title back immediately. That's not even accounting for JDS coming out in his very next fight and Barboza kicking Mark Hunt to sleep. Rizzo on the other hand, was always a frontrunner. If things went wrong, he usually crumbled. I'd actually compare Rizzo more to Gonzaga in that respect.

 

Speaking of Gonzaga, one thing you have to credit Randy for in that fight, he fought through a broken arm to stop Gonzaga that night. And for all Gonzaga's faults and inconsistencies, no-one really knew he was a mental flake back then. Randy went in there with the best, most scary and most confident Gonzaga coming off the Cro Cop KO. It was Randy who forced him to break under the constant pressure. Gonzaga was unlucky to get his nose smashed by Randy's head during that slam, but he mentally checked out in that fight which he wasn't known for pre-Randy.

[jimufctna24]

I believe that about Chuck in 2003, this is the same man who got seen out in 2007 just before the Rampage fight. In short as much as I like him, Chuck is not the brightest bulb in the box when it came to preparation at points in his career. The hype around Chuck in 2003 was a bit silly, they had a massive entrance for him and were firmly putting all there eggs in one basket. Couture came out like any other fighter, I think Dana has never liked Randy much and it could be due to that night. I never include Dana as a source against Couture, as I cannot take Dana seriously with the way he blasts people.

 

I can agree on JDS/Rizzo being a limited comparison. I was going on how both were mainly boxers with knockout power, and based there game around that despite having other weapons. But there are differences.

 

Randy had heart I will never dispute that, he was brave as well. Maybe it was Randy he broke Gonzga, but performances like the Kevin Jordan fight tell me he always had some head games going on, he could have made that less of a mockery than it turned out to be as he showed with by knocking out Jordan from nowhere after rounds of looking clueless.

Edited June 25, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Oh fuck, Gonzaga vs Jordan was the drizzlingest of shits. I forgot that abomination. Fuck positivity, we should review the some of the worst fights in MMA history in here for a change. Heavyweight has had an abundance of complete shite fights over the years.

 

Severn vs Shamrock 2

Severn vs Kimo

Randy vs Maurice Smith

Gonzaga vs Jordan

Mir vs Cro Cop

Mir vs Nelson

Schaub vs Lavar

Arlovski vs Sylvia 3

Sylvia vs Monson

Sylvia vs Vera

Overeem vs Werdum 2

Arlovski vs Werdum

Tank vs Ferrozzo 2 (The Garden Lawn Humpfest)

 

Some right turds there.

Edited June 25, 2013 by wandshogun09