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MMA: Past Fight Discussion


Egg Shen

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Good post on Hughes that.

 

I really like watching his old fights. Like you say, his striking never really got much better, but his all round grappling was phenomenal. I think people don't give him enough credit for his BJJ ability. He's pretty much considered a straight wrestler but his submissions were top drawer. Especially by the time he won the title. I think Jeremy Horn deserves a lot of the credit for that.

 

Obviously choking out Ricardo Almeida is the most obvious example of his submission skills. But if you look how he dealt with guys like Gracie, GSP (1st fight), Penn (at times in 2nd fight), Serra, Newton (2nd fight), Lytle. We're talking some really good grapplers there and he hung with them and in some cases (Newton, Lytle) dominated. He was a beast.

 

And to be fair on his striking, I do actually think he's improved to some degree in recent years. It's just come too late in his career to make a difference. If you look at how he threw punches even in his prime, it was almost comical. I wouldn't call him a good striker now but he's defo better, offensively at least. He never really took a great shot too well but he's shown the last few years that he can dish it out a bit better. Knocking down Almeida, battering Renzo (fair enough he was past it but Hughes still showed improvement). And I thought he was handily outstriking Koscheck on the feet before he got clipped and finished late in the round.

 

I do think he's a cock but as a fighter you can't fault him in his day. Defo the best 170lber of all time not names Georges.

 

Them Gracie and Hughes docs/DVDs are really good. I echo the praise and recommend them. I was also impressed with some of the guys they got in for interviews. Never expected Trigg on the Hughes one either and the Gracie one is full guys I didn't expect to see from Art Davie, Keith Hackney, Jason DeLucia, Art Jimmerson the lot. Only ones really missing were Ken Shamrock and Kimo.

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I can agree his hands did get better, I will also give him a bit of leeway, his wrestling was that good he did not need to be Floyd Mayweather espicially agaisnt guys like Sherk and Trigg, he had enough to get by to set up his wrestling. Once GSP matured he was fucked, his wrestling was never going to be enough against him.

 

Knocking Renzo out is just par for the course, but outstriking Kos for a round and dropping Almedia is pretty impressive, fair play at that stage of his career he could have gotten complacent but he didnt and he improved.

 

Horn is a bit of a forgotten man, I know Sonnen who he beat 3 times thinks that Horn was ahead of himself and Anderson in around 2003 as the best MW on the planet. Maybe he could have been somthing a lot more if the UFC did not fuck MW of for a few years.

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Yeah I really rate Horn. He was a fucking tremendous grappler and was pretty good on the feet when he needed to be too. I wish his prime came along about now cos like you say middleweight was slim back then and the division was on and off. They only really had Linland, Bustamante, Menne and Baroni of any note at the weight for a good while.

 

He came along too soon. He was great to watch though. Even now he doesn't get the praise he deserves, I think it's largely forgotten that he's beaten the likes of Chuck Liddell, Forrest Griffin and Chael Sonnen and stopped them all. 3 times in Sonnen's case. Even in his last UFC stint I really enjoyed his fight with Palhares. He could still go even in 2009.

 

I think these days he's more into teaching and training guys. I know DaMarques Johnson does a lot of grappling training with him and I was shocked to see how much better he looked on the ground in his last fight compared to his days on TUF just a few years ago.

 

And whenever I see the Diaz brothers grappling it reminds me a lot of Horn's ground style. I think in fighter circles he's a lot more highly regarded than amongst fans sadly. The man's a warrior.

 

EDIT- Just looked up his wiki page to see his record again. 89-21-5. Considering the level of guys he's fought over that span that is a very good record. Sure there's nobodies in there aswell but he's fought guys like Liddell, Couture, Griffin, Sonnen, Frank Shamrock, Big Nog, Anderson Silva, Babalu, Arona twice. That's a fucking who's who of MMA.

 

Horn's a guy I would argue 100% deserves a Hall of Fame spot in the future. For his longevity, who he's fought and his contributions towards training guys. Combine that with the wins over UFC champs Liddell and Griffin and he warrants the recognition easy for me.

Edited by wandshogun09
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I can agree on Horn being in the Hall Of Fame. Good comparison with the Diaz's grappling as well. Around his weight class looking at that list, you could never say he ducked or dodged anyone. Its a amazing feat with how some of them were in different organisations as well.

 

I think the UFC with how little cards they had just did not have a new Middleweight Champion as a big priority, they did still find a lot for Baroni and Lindland to do, looking back with Tanner as well if they would have had Horn in, they could get a good few years out of them in Championship bouts despite the lack of depth with how few cards there were to support it they could have dragged it out, the LHW divison was not that deep as well.

 

I will let them of as they were bleeding money. Pride was the show you had to watch for depth and more frequant cards.

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im quite ashamed to admit that i haven't actually seen that many Jeremy Horn fights. I've seen his later UFC-run and perhaps a few other bits and pieces but that's about it...shameful!

 

As for the Hall of Fame thing, it aint going to happen in the UFC, Horn simply never really had a great UFC career. If there was some kind of independent Hall of Fame he'd be a shoe-in, for his fight career as well as his coaching and reputation around the sport. Horn's a fighters fighter for sure and you never hear a bad word spoken of him.

 

A strange little fact about Horn is, he'd only ever beene TKO'd twice, which is remarkable when you consider he's had over a 120 fights. Once was in the 2nd (brutal) fight with Chuck Liddell when the fight was stopped due to Horn not being able to see, the other??? he got KO'd by Matt fucking Lindland! a man not exactly known for having dynamite in his fists, in fact that might be the only fight in which Lindland dropped someone clean on his feet, unbelievable!

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I haven't seen as much Horn as I'd like either (that sounds proper wrong).

 

The ones that stick out most for me, I really liked his fights with Frank Shamrock in the early UFC days and Forrest Griffin in the IFC. Never got round to seeing the Anderson Silva, Big Nog or Randy fights but I will at some point. Might watch Horn vs Nog later actually just found it on Youtube. I've got a good feeling about that one.

 

I think I've seen a clipped version of that Lindland TKO before. It's a funny one that when you look at some of the dangerous strikers who couldn't stop him and Matt Lindland was able to.

 

But yeah if you haven't seen the Shamrock or Griffin fights I'd recommend giving them 2 a look if you get chance.

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Finally on the home stretch on the Wanderlei stuff

 

WanderleiSilva_display_image.jpg

 

"Wanderlei Silva comes right across the Octagon swinging. He's a come forward, in your face warrior. And it's just kill or be killed with him. That's the way Wanderlei Silva fights. He's either knocking you out or he's getting knocked out"

 

Dana White 2009

 

Coming off the Jardine knockout win, the UFC decided to match Wanderlei with old nemesis Rampage again in December 2008.

 

With Wanderlei winning the first two fights, a third meeting wasn't exactly necessary, but it was a fight people wanted to see and with Rampage's improvement since going to the UFC, it was thought it would make for an interesting match up. And there was still bad blood, the fight sold itself. Who doesn't love a grudge match?

 

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Since leaving Pride Rampage had changed up his training and was now under the guidance of Juanito Ibarra. He made big improvements and by 2007 had reached his prime and became widely considered the best 205lb fighter in the sport. He came to the UFC, knocked out Marvin Eastman in his debut, then knocked out Chuck Liddell in the first round to win the UFC title. From there he beat Dan Henderson by decision to unify the UFC and Pride belts. He was on top of the world.

 

But in July 2008, after coaching The Ultimate Fighter opposite Forrest Griffin, he lost his title in a close and pretty controversial decision to Griffin. After that he went mental not sleeping for days and drinking energy drinks and wound up doing a GTA impression in his truck and getting arrested.

 

rampage.jpg

 

When all that shit died down Rampage got himself sorted and was ready to get back to fighting. That's when the call came for a third fight with Wanderlei. It was just what Rampage needed to get his head back straight. A chance to get rid of the demon that haunted him since Pride and get the title loss frustration out of his system. All in one night.

 

So the fight was signed. Wanderlei vs Rampage, one last time.

 

Rampage

"If I was Wanderlei, I wouldn't be looking forward to this. This is revenge for me. The only guy to beat me twice. I'm very ashamed of that because in my mind, can't nobody beat me. And this guy beat me twice. Don't take this ass whippin' personally"

 

Wand

"I'm going to give my best, and this time I'm going to give even more because I don't like him. I think he is scared because I beat him two times. And I know he remembers my knee. I'm going to beat him this time.....AGAIN!"

 

Things got heated at the weigh ins as you'd expect with these two

 

awesome_Wanderlei_and_Rampage_Staredown_and_the_Push_UFC_92_Weigh_In.gif

 

At the time most people were picking Wanderlei to win again. With how decisively the first two fights ended, it was thought he had Rampage's number and he was coming off a big KO win which had people thinking he might be back on track. As well as this, there was a lot of talk that Wanderlei was looking great at Xtreme Couture and had even knocked out current champ Forrest Griffin in sparring. There were also videos of him submitting Big Nog in training. He looked to be firing on all cilinders.

 

In contrast, on Rampage's side nothing looked right. Between the loss to Griffin, his problems with the law and changing his camp yet again and splitting from Ibarra to join the Wolfslair, things didn't look good on paper. With all the chaos surrounding Rampage, people doubted if his focus was there.

 

Wanderlei Silva vs Quinton 'Rampage' Jackson 3

27.12.08 - UFC 92: 'The Ultimate 2008'

Tentative start by both with them both throwing with big power but not really connecting. Wand started to land some nice leg kicks, which was something Forrest Griffin used very effectively against Rampage in their fight.

 

A couple of minutes in Wand starts to put the pressure on coming at Rampage and throwing punches. That's when it goes badly wrong as Rampage times it perfectly, blocks Wand's shots and counters with about a bomb of a left hook.

 

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Wand was asleep before he hit the mat and Rampage followed up with some unnecessary shots on the ground. Wand was done the second that left hook connected. About as clean a knockout as you'll ever see.

 

One interesting fact I found on this fight which I didn't know about. Apparently after Rampage fired Juanito Ibarra (he was allegedly ripping Rampage off or something), Ibarra offered his help to Wanderlei to beat Rampage.

 

Here's Wand on the subject

 

"I've received a letter from someone offering training with Juanito to me, but I didn't care to accept it.

"(The letter) contained phone numbers that I could use to get in touch with Juanito, but I threw it away.

"I think it's unethical to accept the former coach of my opponent, and if Juanito is doing this with Rampage, he may do the same with me later."

 

Slimey bastard. Fair play to Wand for turning his offer down.

 

This brought an end to probably the most violent trilogy in MMA history. These days Wand and Rampage are on more civil terms although they'll obviously never be friends. They're complimentary of each others skills at least and they obviously earned each other's respect as fighters if nothing else.

 

After that crushing defeat, Wanderlei decided a big change was needed in his career. He decided to drop to 185lbs.

 

This caused problems in itself as Wand's old team mate Anderson Silva was the undisputed king at Middleweight and took offense at what he saw as Wand coming to 'his division'.

 

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Things got ugly and all sorts of shit came out. Obviously they were once close team mates. Anderson got his start at Chute Boxe when Wanderlei was ruling Pride. The two seemed to be close and Wanderlei often cornered Anderson in Pride fights.

 

wanderlei_anderson_silva-300x330.jpg

 

At some point, and it's never been made clear why, a rift came between Anderson and Chute Boxe and he left the team and decided to join their biggest rivals, the Brazilian Top Team.

 

Anderson's version was that Chute Boxe were using Wanderlei's starpower and stroke in Japan to keep Anderson down and he said he started having problems getting booked on Pride events after that. So he left for BTT where he formed a close alliance with the Nogueira brothers which still remains strong today. He fought for other MMA companies like Cage Rage and Rumble on the Rock until 2006 when he was signed by the UFC and his career skyrocketed.

 

When Wanderlei came to the UFC the following year, there was no sign of any problem between the two and Anderson was even in videos backstage with Wand after Wand lost to Chuck Liddell.

 

But this move to middleweight started some beef between them. Anderson saw it as an insult and was clearly pissed off at Wand for opening up the possibility that they would have to fight.

 

Wand on Anderson at the time in 2009

"I don't know what has happened with him now. He's changed his posture. In his interviews, his ego is ahh, I don't know...maybe him believing he's the best in the world. He's afraid, because he know the power of my hands. They know I am a danger for him. He is a great fighter but the guys that fight with him...the guys don't punch him, the guys don't hit him. I'm going to punch his face"

 

Wanderlei's next fight was announced.

 

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He'd be fighting Rich Franklin at the UFC's first ever event in Germany. And to allow Wand time to gradually make the transition down to 185 this fight would be at a catchweight of 195lbs.

 

Again, the new feud with Anderson reared it's head when Anderson offered Franklin an invitation to train with him at Black House to show him how to beat Wanderlei.

 

Wand wasn't impressed

"He's gonna fight with me not Anderson no? He can train wherever he wants because I'm going to be in my best condition and I'm going to beat him"

 

The back and forth between Wand and Anderson was becoming so intense that Dana White even teased the possibility of Wand challenging Anderson for the middleweight title 'in the very near future' if he beat Franklin in Germany.

 

As you'd expect there wasn't much trash talk between Wanderlei and Rich Franklin. The fight was billed as a fight for the fans between two guys with crowd pleasing fighting styles.

 

Matt Hume, who trained Franklin for the fight, summed it up

"For years the UFC guys and Pride guys didn't fight each other. And now we've had some tremendous match ups. And this is one of those match ups that people wanted to see for years.

 

I've seen what Wanderlei can do over many years. He's probably the most dangerous guy in the sport. Quinton Jackson capitalized very well and made him miss and countered while he was still in the pocket. But the timing has to be good while you're in that pocket with Wanderlei. Because bad things are gonna happen in there if you don't"

 

Wanderlei Silva vs Rich Franklin

13.06.09 - UFC 99: 'The Comeback'

The fight started off fairly cautious. Franklin did a good job landing body kicks early on but Wand caught one and swept Franklin's legs and took him down. They didn't stay there long and Franklin continued to land some good strikes on the feet later in the round.

 

Round 2 they started to loosen up a bit trading kicks and both landing some decent shots. Franklin briefly dropped Wand with a nice jab which I didn't remember but Wand was up quick and didn't seem hurt. Wand was more aggressive in this round but Franklin was countering well.

 

Late in the round Wand lands two big punches and Franklin looks shaky.

 

Rich_Franklin_vs_WanderleiSilva_1000402.jpg

 

Wand kept up the attack and Rich looked wobbly against the fence. Wand was going for the kill there but he looked sluggish and was falling all over the place. Rogan on the commentary said maybe Wand had a dodgy weight cut. Still, the way the round ended probably swung it in Wand's favour.

 

Round 3 was scrappy and both looked tired. Franklin landed more body kicks but Wand put the pressure on again midway through the round and although he missed a lot he had Rich on the defense. Wand landed a knee to the head and some kicks and started stalking Franklin. The crowd was really loving this fight.

 

With about a minute left in the fight, Wand ate a kick and came charging forward throwing bombs and Franklin takes him down. Wand was up quick but Franklin had a back clinch with seconds to go. Wand started firing hard elbows back as Franklin answered with punches as the seconds ticked away and the final buzzer went.

 

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Great finish.

 

Buffer reads the cards and Rich Franklin takes a unanimous decision. Close fight, probably the right call although I felt it could have gone either way to be honest. You could make the argument Wand took rounds 2 and 3 but he left it too close to really complain.

 

A really exciting, intense fight.

 

As for the feud with Anderson, that got resolved pretty quickly. Two months after UFC 99, Wand and Anderson met in person over the weekend of UFC 102 in August 2009. Wand was cornering Demian Maia and Anderson was there to corner Big Nog for his epic fight with Randy Couture. Anyway, the two met up and talked, all was forgotten and forgiven and it's never came up again.

 

Good thing because as much as I love Wanderlei he would have got slaughtered if that fight had happened. Maybe in the Chute Boxe days things were different but by 2009 it wouldn't have been a pretty sight. These days they're pretty friendly again.

 

After the loss in Germany, Wanderlei made another change. His face. Over the years he'd suffered so many cuts and had his nose broken so many times it was causing him all kinds of problems.

 

"I make the surgery to shave my bones under my eyes because I'm cutting a lot. I had 200 cut, 200 stitches and every punch cuts. And they make a surgery on my nose because I have trouble breathing and wasn't sleeping very well. I would snore so much and I'm married you know"

 

The reaction online was one of shock when pictures of Wanderlei, who had always been one of the most intimidating looking fighters in the sport, turned up online with him looking like the love child of Cris Cyborg and The Joker from Batman.

 

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As we know, it's not as bad as that now but it still doesn't look right. It's taken some getting used to.

 

Wand had a busy summer in 2009 outside the cage while he healed up from the surgery. It was around this time that he opened up his own gym in Las Vegas, the Wand Fight Team gym.

 

Wand-Fight-Team.jpg

 

"I saved money for my whole life and I use this money to open the gym. Good investment. For me and for my fighters and for everybody who wants to come and train. A lot of famous fighters come and train in my gym. Junior Cigano (Dos Santos), Forrest Griffin, Thiago Silva, Pitbull (Alves). I'm here everyday".

 

So with his new face and new gym his next fight would see him make his official debut in the new year in his new weightclass. It would also be in a new territory for the UFC being their first show held in Australia. New beginnings.

Edited by wandshogun09
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Iberra got the best out of Rampage, as said it was indeed his prime and the best version of Rampage we will ever see. The Wolfslair version of Rampage is the shits really, maybe he could have extended his prime if he had the intelligence and sense to move to AKA or Cesar Gracie's camp.

 

Having said that, Iberra is still a slimy unlikable twat. Somthing about him that I disliked even before Rampage turned on him. I wonder what happened to him. I know Tito Ortiz says he charges stupid prices for training and I believe he helped James Toney out for his UFC fight.

 

As for Anderson theory and grudge against Wand. Anderson maybe the best fighter of all-time now, but in Pride he had serious flaws. It makes no sense to keep Anderson down, he was less a threat than Shogun at the time who also fought out of Chute-Boxe, there were never claims of Wanderlai holding him down with stroke and he was in the same weightclass as him!

 

Anderson lost to Chonnan and Takuse, two guys who he should have beat and who were nowhere near top-level. I am not shocked that Pride let him go. I like Anderson but he does hold grudges at times without substance, he was the same with Belfort and Munoz playing the old loyality card. For someone as great as he is, he is not half sensitive at times.

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Yeah Anderson's version seemed a bit off to me aswell. I think they just let him go cos he had mixed results and he wanted to blame someone. Like you say though, with where he was by 2009 you wouldn't think he'd be arsed about the past.Anyway, finally at the end of Wanderlei's career now. It's taken a lot longer than I intended.wanderlei_silva_caricature.jpg

"Wanderlei Silva is just a psychopath. I mean, the reason why that guy has the nickname 'The Axe Murderer' isn't because he likes to bob and weave and look light on his feet. He's a beserker. Anybody who's seen Wanderlei Silva fight, that is the perfect one word description for a Wanderlei Silva fight....GUARANTEED VIOLENCE!"Joe Rogan 2009

:laugh: that's two words Joe.With his new face intact, Wanderlei was finally ready for his first official fight at middleweight. The UFC announced he would face Michael Bisping as the co main event for UFC 110 in Sydney, Australia. It would be the UFC's first trip to Australia. Says a lot about Wanderlei's fan friendly fighting style that he was put in main and co main events on the UFC's first ventures into places like Germany and Australia. Pre fight talk before the Bisping fight was fairly tame until fight week when tempers flared a bit at the pre fight press conference. People were pretty split on predicting this fight, some thought Wanderlei could repeat Dan Henderson's knockout of Bisping but the majority seemed to be backing a Bisping decision.The thinking was that if Bisping could avoid Wand's power he'd outwork him being the busier striker and mixing in takedowns to take a points win. People pointed to Bisping's win over Chris Leben as the blueprint for him to beat Wanderlei. And given Bisping's highly regarded cardio, there were doubts Wand would hang with him over a longer fight after looking sloppy at times against Franklin following a lesser weight cut to 195.Wanderlei showed no concerns leading into the fight and assured everyone that he had his weight cut in order this time. His confidence in making the weight was apparent at the weigh in where he actually weighed in wearing a shirt and hat.

"For my fans, I

Edited by wandshogun09
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Excellent career review there Wand.One thing I will add is the reaction he got coming out at UFC 132 stands out as one of the biggest Pop I have ever heard in MMA/Pro Wrestling History. Wand's trainer felt on that distracted Wanderal and made him think with his fists and not his head and being overly agressive. Against a power puncher like Leben that was suicide.

Edited by jimufctna24
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Yeah and to think if he'd beat Leben he'd be 3-0 at middleweight now. Assuming he still ended up fighting Le of course. After seeing how smart he fought against Bisping I really thought he'd have a good shot at Leben. I couldn't believe he just ran at him like that. Like you say maybe the huge crowd reaction amped him up too much.With Wand getting sparked in 27 seconds and Nog losing from a winning position to Mir last year, they were easily my 2 most frustrating and gutting fights to watch. I'd add in Jones/Shogun to that aswell but to be honest I expected it to look kind of how it did sadly.I might do another career review when i get more time. My girlfriend starts her college course soon so I'll have a load of time to kill. I'm thinking of working through either Big Nog, Nick Diaz or Shogun's career next.

Edited by wandshogun09
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Cheers, yeah I'm leaning towards Diaz.

 

This isn't a past fight or really an MMA fighter but I didn't know where else to post this and thought some of you might like it. Remember this cool motherfucker?

 

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That's Jim Kelly, or Williams from Enter the Dragon. Anyway, the film is an old favourite of mine I used to watch it at least 2 or 3 times a week as a little kid and I thought Williams was the man, I was gutted when Han the bastard had him killed. Enter the Dragon was repeated recently and I looked up some of the actors in it.

 

Jim Kelly's still knocking about, he's 66 now and became a professional tennis coach in recent years. I found a couple of interesting Youtube videos of him;

 

Short clip of him in his fighting days

 

Good 25 minute recent interview

 

Really interesting to listen to, he looks good for 66 too. Talks about a whole load of subjects, a lot about Bruce Lee obviously but also gives his views on MMA and Boxing. And his opinions on guys like Roy Jones Jr, James Toney, Anderson Silva and GSP.

 

Great to listen to, seems a good guy. Says he would have done MMA if he was young now and even considered getting into it when MMA started with the Gracies.

 

Another short interview from 2009 talking GSP, Fedor, UFC, Pride, Wanderlei, Gracies,

 

And on a related note I stumbled across this;

 

Bruce Lee talks MMA - interview clips of Lee with highlights from UFC fights included

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7MnNiVEhOc...feature=related

 

I love that. When you look at what Lee did in martial arts he was probably the first real mixed martial artist.

Edited by wandshogun09
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