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General politics discussion thread

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Just now, Keith Houchen said:

No he isn't, he is pointing out the irony of a party calling themselves Socialista are anything but.

Okay, but that's true of a lot of parties that have inherited the name 'Socialist' or 'Labour/Workers' in many countries these days. 

It's a fair point that the PSOE attitude towards Catalonia has made them a bit too cosy with the Spanish mainstream right (which is less overtly racist than in almost any other European country, by the way). In other ways, though, Sánchez has sought to distance himself from the policies of the previous administration under Mariano Rajoy despite lacking anything like a parliamentary majority, particular in regard to refugees. 

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None of that has anything to do with David's point that you quoted though and doesn't back up the claim levied against him by you.

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All right Keith, teach me how to argue properly then. 

The way the now-deposed PP government dealt with the attempted referendum in Catalonia was violent and authoritarian. David obviously sees those as exclusive traits of the right.

The main motivation for the separatist movement in Catalonia is for the region to keep more of its own money and quite possibly even to stop water being sent to the drier south during the summer. Lately there are useful idiots from the utopian far left (in this case, the ERC and the CUP) backing them because they now want independence at all costs. The secessionist 'project' has only ever been led by figures from the right, however ‚Äď first Mas, then Puigdemont and now Torra.¬†

I don't know if that addresses David's point in an acceptable manner, but it's an interesting enough subject to me that I'm going to leave it here anyway. 

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3 minutes ago, Fog Dude said:

All right Keith, teach me how to argue properly then.

I'm sure @David will clear it up himself but to me it looked like he was saying how a party calling themselves socialist acted in a way that were anything but left wing.  He didn't   make any reference to the political leanings of the Catalan independence movement at all but you then waded in saying he was making a Guardian like mistake about their political leanings.  Something he hadn't even mentioned.

I'm sure he will clear it up anyway but it's bad form to invent his "Mistake"

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You're right. I was maybe drawing an inference that wasn't quite there. It is an error that the newspaper in question was clinging to frequently late last year, mind you.

If however, he was saying that the left-wing credentials of Sánchez can only be measured by his attitude towards Catalonia, then I'd maintain that he's already shown a marked difference in domestic and refugee policy since coming to power. As you say, we should wait for David to clear that up himself. 

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2 minutes ago, Fog Dude said:

You're right. I was maybe drawing an inference that wasn't quite there

I am and you were.

 

3 minutes ago, Fog Dude said:

It is an error that the newspaper in question was clinging to frequently late last year, mind you.

Totally irrelevant here though.

 

3 minutes ago, Fog Dude said:

If however, he was saying that the left-wing credentials of Sánchez can only be measured by his attitude towards Catalonia

Again, he isn't.  You're saying he is.

 

It's a really interesting subject though, isn't it?  I'm kinda of the position that Europe needs less borders, not more, but it's such a complex issue.  Can you recommend some good reading material on it?

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12 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

It's a really interesting subject though, isn't it?  I'm kinda of the position that Europe needs less borders, not more, but it's such a complex issue.  Can you recommend some good reading material on it?

It is indeed fascinating. I'd say the world as a whole needs fewer international borders. 

I'm often shit at remembering where I actually acquired knowledge or saw a great bit of analysis, I'm afraid. That trait didn't serve me very well at university. A load of what I've read about Catalonia won't have been in English anyway.

Don't get me wrong about The Guardian either. There's a lot of great stuff in there still. It's just that much of their reporting on the Catalan crisis appeared to have been dictated to them from inside the Ecuadorian embassy. 

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The Catalan situation is an interesting one, because historically the Catalans have an understandable grievance against the Spanish government about how they've been treated over the centuries, particularly under the fascist regime of Franco, but there is also a worry that the Catalan independence movement could be a lot like Italy's "The League" that's now running the country - it used to be "The Northern League", and it was originally founded by a bunch of racists who wanted to split the economically more powerful north of the country off from the south, which is still quite poor, and a thread running through the more pernicious elements of their propaganda was that they wanted to get rid of the dark-haired, dark-skinned southerners.

Spain, like Italy, saw a large chunk of the south of the country conquered and ruled by the Moors in the Middle Ages for quite some time, so there'd be a similarity in the genetic make-up and appearance of the southerners being darker and the northerners being fairer; I wouldn't be surprised if there was some similar vein of racism being exploited in the more extreme elements of the Catalan independence movement's messages, and from what Fog Dude's said, it sounds like there's also a bit of the Northern League's greed in there too, splitting the economic powerhouse of Barcelona/Catalonia from the poorer south.

In fairness, like I say, Catalonia has legitimate grievances against the government of Spain which saw its culture threatened several times and its people treated like second-class citizens through periods of the country's history, so it's not quite the same as Italy; one can understand why they'd be a bit more reluctant to share the wealth.

Either way, though, it's clear to me @David knows a lot more about this, so I'd like to read more from him.

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