General politics discussion thread

[Keith Houchen]

I see what you say about a couple but if I was to "Wake up my wife" with oral, I am committing a criminal act if she doesn't want sex.

Sure, but even there we find muddy waters, don't we?

Well, we don't. Pedantic I know but I was referring to my relationship and my relationship alone. However, as you say, if it's a given through years of understanding then of course its no problem

I find it hard to equate the initial action with that of a balaclava-wearing, knife-wielding psycho, do you know what I mean?

I do indeed. Incidentally, the knife weilding Psycho line is what landed Ken Clarke in bother with his "Classic Rape" thing. The vast majority of reported rapes and assaults happen where the victim knows the attacker.

 

I hope I'm not coming across as the guy trying to downplay rape

And I hope I'm not coming across as an ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS type. I won't go into it in detail because, as you said, we are derailing the issue, but my wife is a Counsellor for a rape crisis centre. Obviously we don't talk about particulars but the brick walls that are thrown up for rape survivors coupled with the victim blaming culture really riles me and I may not be entirely reasonable at times.

 

I think you summed it up with the difference between a couple who have been together for ages, who have set boundaries and a one night stand type of thing.

[Loki]

You're making it out to be black and white, Keith, but it's really a tricky subject. Particularly where combined with alcohol.

 

For example, some cases brought before the courts have tried to argue that drunken consent is not proper consent, and therefore sex whilst really pissed can be considered rape. Considering something like 50% of all rape cases involve alcohol consumed by both parties, it's a contentious issue.

 

For all their unpopular old-school opinions, what people like Helen Mirren are suggesting is that, whilst the personal responsibility for rape always lies with the rapist, to suggest that women's actions have no bearing on the creation of compromising circumstances is to paint women as weak-willed creatures who need wrapping in cotton wool. Roger Graef's Panorama documentary earlier this year showed that one of the reasons that conviction rates for rape have actually been falling in recent years is due to excessive drinking by young women. When cases come to court, and the defence can show security cam footage of the woman falling down drunk, it tends to blow the chances of a conviction! Given how hard it is to get rape cases to court in the first place, anything that reduces the chances of conviction is a bad thing.

 

I went out with a girl whose fantasy was to be woken by her partner having sex with her. I did that on more than one occasion, and I don't consider myself a rapist, but because I didn't actively seek out her consent every time, you'd probably disagree. On the other hand, marital rape is just as valid a problem as stranger rape, and consent can be coerced or assumed in long-term relationships, so I just don't think consent is a black and white affair, it's complicated.

[Chest Rockwell]

I went out with a girl whose fantasy was to be woken by her partner having sex with her. I did that on more than one occasion, and I don't consider myself a rapist, but because I didn't actively seek out her consent every time, you'd probably disagree. On the other hand, marital rape is just as valid a problem as stranger rape, and consent can be coerced or assumed in long-term relationships, so I just don't think consent is a black and white affair, it's complicated.

 

No, he wouldn't disagree. I'm sorry, but if you'd actually read the last couple posts that kind of tacit agreement within a relationship has been explicitly discussed.

[Loki]

No it hasn't. Keith talked a about sex without consent always means rape. "tacit consent" wouldn't count, that's a weasel term in his eyes I would imagine. I respect that, but I don't think it's a universal viewpoint.

[WildSybianRider]

For all their unpopular old-school opinions, what people like Helen Mirren are suggesting is that, whilst the personal responsibility for rape always lies with the rapist, to suggest that women's actions have no bearing on the creation of compromising circumstances is to paint women as weak-willed creatures who need wrapping in cotton wool. Roger Graef's Panorama documentary earlier this year showed that one of the reasons that conviction rates for rape have actually been falling in recent years is due to excessive drinking by young women. When cases come to court, and the defence can show security cam footage of the woman falling down drunk, it tends to blow the chances of a conviction! Given how hard it is to get rape cases to court in the first place, anything that reduces the chances of conviction is a bad thing.

 

[WildSybianRider]

Flame away but, in this matter particularly, I wish bobbins still posted here.

 

eh, I did my best.

 

 

I still find the cult of Assange incredible - even, in fact especially, from the left. It's starting to show flashes of conspiracy theorist mindsets. Evidence to support conclusions rather than conclusions drawn from evidence. George Galloway's been loco forever but I honestly think if you drove a big black car with U.S. plates past his house every day, it'd be a matter of time until he's living in a hedge somewhere, saying a rifle-wielding Dick Cheney is in the next field along. (Unless, of course, you happen to think Galloway is a professional cynic who's made a nice career out of it, but perish the thought.)

 

I'm a Guardian faggot so I'm all for America being held to account. And I don't want them to be able to silence whistle-blowers. But I don't know how people make the leap from that to rape denial. It's sad that the world knows all about the particulars of the incidents involving Assange. I pity those two girls. It's part of a wider problem that the first defence against rape allegations is to discredit the victim: throw doubt on the act ("it wasn't rape-rape"), the circumstance ("she was drunk") or the character ("she's lying because she regrets a one night stand"). The Assange case seems to have the trifecta behind it, so many people making excuses for this slimey piece of shit. Like I said a couple of pages ago, Fuck Julian Assange man.

[Maverick]

Flame away but, in this matter particularly, I wish bobbins still posted here.

 

eh, I did my best.

 

 

I still find the cult of Assange incredible - even, in fact especially, from the left. It's starting to show flashes of conspiracy theorist mindsets. Evidence to support conclusions rather than conclusions drawn from evidence. George Galloway's been loco forever but I honestly think if you drove a big black car with U.S. plates past his house every day, it'd be a matter of time until he's living in a hedge somewhere, saying a rifle-wielding Dick Cheney is in the next field along. (Unless, of course, you happen to think Galloway is a professional cynic who's made a nice career out of it, but perish the thought.)

 

I'm a Guardian faggot so I'm all for America being held to account. And I don't want them to be able to silence whistle-blowers. But I don't know how people make the leap from that to rape denial. It's sad that the world knows all about the particulars of the incidents involving Assange. I pity those two girls. It's part of a wider problem that the first defence against rape allegations is to discredit the victim: throw doubt on the act ("it wasn't rape-rape"), the circumstance ("she was drunk") or the character ("she's lying because she regrets a one night stand"). The Assange case seems to have the trifecta behind it, so many people making excuses for this slimey piece of shit. Like I said a couple of pages ago, Fuck Julian Assange man.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this but I honestly feel it's neccesary to be sure as so many false rape claims are made and they can ruin a man's life even if it comes out he did nothing wrong. The women who make false rape claims really should realize the damage their doing to those who really have been through it as it really hurts their chances of getting justice. The point about all Assange's supporters is an interesting one but it works with most crimes just not rape, most people generally don't like to believe someone they support/like would commit such an act so are quite happy to claim innocence etc, it's like the Ched Evans comparison Houchen made earlier.

[WildSybianRider]

Yeah, the comparison is spot on. I feel as cheated by anyone by Assange. I mean, it was inevitable that wikileaks and anti-US Latin America would have dovetailed sooner or later. And I would have been marking the fuck out. Eighteen months ago, Hugo Chavez and Julian Assange drinking mojitos and using the stars and stripes to light cigars Castro had sent them.... that was manna to me. But I'm not about to abandon my beliefs because the wikileaks figurehead isn't the hero I wanted.

[Loki]

LOLGIF

 

I'm aware you're incapable of carrying on an adult discussion, you petulant child, but perhaps others are, so shhhh...

[WildSybianRider]

Er, alright. I wasn't taking the piss out of what you said. It was an interesting point. But I feel that if you start thinking like that, you deflect the conditions surrounding rape back onto the victim. Helen Mirren's point is a total red herring. A woman can get pissed out of her mind if she so pleases. That creating compromising circumstances does not mitigate rape at all (I know you're not suggesting that it does). Claiming otherwise is what wraps women in cotton wool. Because it's planting the seed, isn't it - if you go and drink to excess, and something rogue happens, oof well it's a bit complicated isn't it? You sure you wanna go to the po' with that? A victim's level of intoxication is as relevant as the length of her skirt or her familiarity with the rapist. The partitioning of rape into 'knifey rape', 'stranger rape', 'boyfriend rape', 'night out rape'

[David]

Galloway is already starting to see the fallout from his comments;

 

George Galloway has been sacked as a columnist on the Scottish political magazine Holyrood after he refused to retract his widely condemned remarks about the rape charges facing Julian Assange.

 

Mandy Rhodes, the editor of Holyrood, said the Respect party MP's remarks that Assange was guilty of just "bad manners" by failing to ask permission to have sex with a sleeping woman, had left her "frankly gobsmacked".

 

Rhodes said she had not always agreed with Galloway's views in the past but had respected his integrity, his role as an "effective thorn in the side of the establishment", and his stance on Iraq.

 

However, she said it was impossible for him to continue his column following his remark that having sex with a sleeping woman was "not rape as anyone with any sense can possibly recognise it" if she had already had sex with that man.

 

"There is no excuse, ever, for sex without consent, and regardless of the details of the Assange case, Galloway's comments and inappropriate language about rape per se are alarming," Rhodes said in a statement on the magazine's website.

 

She added: "I had hoped he might have taken the last 24 hours to reflect on his judgment and perhaps make some kind of public apology

[Keith Houchen]

No it hasn't. Keith talked a about sex without consent always means rape.

Yes it has, and I have, because it is. Re read the posts above as Chest suggests as it HAS been discussed and my feelings have been made clear. Also WSR is right, to patronise him like that is bad form, Loki.

 

I noticed WikiLeaks tweeted how David Allen Green is part of a Leftist Cabal or somesuch, more fire to Dietbobs saying how it's adopting a conspiracy theory. Even Seamus Milne, one of the pedestals of the left wrote a piece that was questionalble today.

[Loki]

Er, alright. I wasn't taking the piss out of what you said. It was an interesting point. But I feel that if you start thinking like that, you deflect the conditions surrounding rape back onto the victim. Helen Mirren's point is a total red herring. A woman can get pissed out of her mind if she so pleases. That creating compromising circumstances does not mitigate rape at all (I know you're not suggesting that it does). Claiming otherwise is what wraps women in cotton wool. Because it's planting the seed, isn't it - if you go and drink to excess, and something rogue happens, oof well it's a bit complicated isn't it? You sure you wanna go to the po' with that? A victim's level of intoxication is as relevant as the length of her skirt or her familiarity with the rapist. The partitioning of rape into 'knifey rape', 'stranger rape', 'boyfriend rape', 'night out rape'

[Magnum]

I'd say a big part of the problem as regards applying this in the UK is that the idea of a man or woman getting absolutely blotto and ending up in bed (or more likely, a back alley) with another drunken stranger they've just met seems to be ingrained into our culture - in many cases, it's the first courtship ritual young people here learn. The nightclub industry thrives on it, and the Magaluf/Kavos/generic horrible 18-30 type resort holiday industry is built on it, not to mention the way drunken young women having sex with predatory men is typically portrayed as comedic in 'constructed reality' shows such as Geordie Shore. I agree with everyone who's said that there needs to be a sensible debate on this issue, but there are also whole aspects of the culture - not least the media - that need to change if the idea of verbally asking for explicit consent before sex is to become the norm.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Magnum

[Keith Houchen]

And Keith - respectfully, but you're dodging my point. You cannot say

 

Saying nothing isn't saying yes, therefore isn't consent. That's the whole consent thing in a nutshell. There are no degrees. Either there is rape and sexual assault, or there is consent.

 

and then immediately start making exceptions because you don't want to label everyone on the forum a rapist. Well, tacit consent, of course, that's an exception. And of course, in a long-term loving relationship, there's an exception there. And suddenly you've opened up a huge loophole for marital rape.

Except I haven't, I haven't moved from "There is consent or there isn't" and nor will I. There are no degrees here, it IS black and white. Admittedly that quote was taken in regards to one night stands and all that and I didn't make that clear, hence the discussion afterwards which you initially missed by the looks of it.

 

With regards to attitudes, the first step is to eliminate victim blaming. That is woven into the fabric of society, we see it every time, say, a footballer is involved in a scandal or if a sex worker is attacked. That's one of the main reasons why survivors don't come forward. The main reason apparently is because their attacker is someone they've been in a long term relationship with and are scared.