General politics discussion thread

[David]

As an aside but general politics related, did I read that Geert Wilders has been cleared of being anti Muslim in the Netherlands because it was found to be acceptable public debate?

Yes;

 

When an Amsterdam court acquitted far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders of all charges of discrimination and inciting hatred against Muslims on June 23, it seemed a fitting climax to a week that saw the end of the decade-long Dutch experiment with integration. Judges ruled that although the comments the politician made in the Dutch press and on the internet between October 2006 and March 2008 comparing Islam to Nazism may be offensive, they are nonetheless legal and part of a legitimate government debate

[Chris_Stone]

"head-rag tax."

 

i find this so incredibly funny, the sheer ridiculousness of it really gets me... not only is the idea of a tax on a specific item of clothing laughable but even the term "head-rag tax" is equally as hilarious (for all the wrong reasons of course). Does anyone know what this was to actually be? I mean, the obvious answer seems so implausible i'm having trouble accepting it.

 

In some respects i can understand islamophobia, not that I accept it to be fair, reasonable or even something an intelligent person should give a seconds thought but i can see why it is becoming a bigger issue year on year. It's a shame that a few are really harming a mass of people with the way they act, it's a further shame that the media seems to enjoy stirring the issue with sensationalised stories. I believe not enough emphasis is put on the fact that it's a select few but i don't think even if it was too much would change.

 

When such horrible acts are commited in the name of Islam, is it a wonder that it scares some people? I'd say not even with how unrational that fear is. Politicians being able to capitalise on such events is not only oppertunistic but abhorent.

 

Islam is such an easy target, especially with the people who simply see the terrorist events and wars as an excuse to wear their Nazi ideology openly.

 

I'm not a massive advocate of freedom of speech without limitations it's a dumb freedom, often abused. That freedom is there to make sure that people are heard, underminding it by peddling hatred in my opinion should obviously not be allowed. Too much freedom hurts other freedoms and if we allow freedom of speech to be used in a way which impedes on religious freedom or any other freedom it's self defeating.

 

I guess it's like with any minority group who get discriminated against though, they all have the bad in there that live up to these horrible, often inaccurate (other than in a select few) stereotypes and breeds more discrimination and hate. Islamics get the worst of this, with the extremists doing things in their name, this is why whilst most other minority groups are becoming more accepted, Islam is becoming more feared, misunderstood and hated, simply because the bad are much worse than in other minorities.

 

People don't hate Christians because of the WBBC because they're small scale and our exposure to Christianity is large, I'm a pretty liberal person and even I would say i have a far better understanding and larger exposure to Christianity than to Islam through this i KNOW and can't deny for even a second that Christianity isn't inherently evil despite the people doing wrong in their name. Even with other forms of racism, such as with Africans for instance the 'bad' who live up to the stereotypes of being gangsters, drug dealers etc etc are doing no where near as much harm as terrorists and we see examples of these types of roles in White British / Americans too fairly regularly. Again with Gays who even with the annoying Queens, don't really do anything to harm us. I guess the exposure and the damage of the bad ones is the driving force.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Chris_Stone

[David]

The problem we face is that the longer we address this problem by simply shouting "fascists!!" at these people whilst putting our fingers in our ears the more the problems that they highlight (which are, to a certain degree, seen as problems for a good chunk of the population of Europe) are only addressed by them, thus giving only their extreme solution.

 

It can't end well if we continue as we are.

[patiirc]

Hugh Grant on QT, interesting....

[Parkamarka]

In cases like the DLA its cost effective not to go case by case and weed out those who are abusing the system so that its done properly and fairly, hence the we will skim and scrimp here by just removing it completely. There are other issues such as the 'media spun shirker' and everyone can name those abusing the system and so on. Ergo, that's fine to wipe them from getting dosh. Its a shame that they forget the other people who actually need it and offer no replacement in this case. other than a lower Universal benefit, where as as per above the revised system would incorporate those who actually need it. Essentially, its the double standards that go in to these things which annoys. If you are going to do it do it properly and not take the easy option as by actually sitting down and sorting it out would be better for everybody ( those getting the benefit, administration of the benefit and cost savings, future governments etc in the long run) but it very very rarely works that

The DWP estimates the fraud rate for DLA to be less than 0.5%, one of the lowest for any benefit. This cut consists of changing the name, and reducing the eligibility for the new payment by 20%, thereby cutting the funding for 19.5% of recipients that they've already determined are eligible and need it. The necessity of any of these cuts on the vulnerable can be immediately undermined by asking why they don't start by collecting the billions in tax that are not being paid by some of the richest people in the country. I'll never understand why that doesn't cause more of an outcry when everyone knows it's happening, and instead the public get drawn into this debate over scrimping and saving at the bottom end.

[Loki]

Hugh Grant on QT, interesting....

 

The tabloid journalist constantly trying to bring up Hugh's incident with that prostitute over and over again was highly embarrassing, he came across like a complete cock where Hugh looked gracious and serious.

 

Shirley was great as ever though, she even got some good sexual innuendo in, the dirty bitch.

[David]

The necessity of any of these cuts on the vulnerable can be immediately undermined by asking why they don't start by collecting the billions in tax that are not being paid by some of the richest people in the country. I'll never understand why that doesn't cause more of an outcry when everyone knows it's happening, and instead the public get drawn into this debate over scrimping and saving at the bottom end.

One of the reasons why is because it isn't widely known. You won't see the issue being raised by many media sources, that's for sure.

[patiirc]

The tabloid journalist constantly trying to bring up Hugh's incident with that prostitute over and over again was highly embarrassing, he came across like a complete cock where Hugh looked gracious and serious.

 

Shirley was great as ever though, she even got some good sexual innuendo in, the dirty bitch.

 

It was Jon Gaunt, who is on a par with Kelvin McKenzie in the death is too good stakes

 

 

As for the changes to the DLA, last thing I read it was some of the Carer's Allowance and Motorbility that was to be cut? The name change is to Personal Independence Payment or something, and is coming into effect in 2013/4 What else have I missed there?

 

I've actually got to fill in my DLA form later on, despite the fact that the only change is to my pain pills and I will have effectively been discharged from the Pain Clinic as they have done all they can. Still, I have to fill in a multi multi page form, and get details from doctors, specialists and the like and it will still take 8-11 Weeks to consider?. Seeing as the benefit ends at the beginning of September for me. Im assuming there is going to be a big gap in the finances whilst they faff and then will have the inevitable medical by them again, despite having countless number of the buggers already and Im actually seeing my specialist next week anyway. There is actually a lot of waste in the system, made worse by the fact that the ESA people and the DLA people dont talk to each other either ( or seemingly so) So have to do everything in at least duplicate. I cant wait for the inevitable appeals. Deep unadulterated Joy

[David]

There's a campaign gathering pace in Ireland to see the release on compassionate grounds of Brendan Lillis. He's currently being held in Maghaberry despite the fact that he suffers from ankylosing spondylitis and has been bed-ridden for over two years. Apparently he weighs less than five stone and medical opinion is that he'll be lucky to last a month.

 

Campaigners calling for the release from jail of a seriously ill Belfast man convicted of possessing explosives over three decades ago have begun a hunger strike.

 

West Belfast man Brendan Lillis is currently being treated in the hospital wing of Maghaberry prison for Ankylosing Spondylitis, a type of arthritis that mainly affects the spine.

 

Last night his partner Roisin Lynch said the former IRA man is confined to bed and has just days to live.

 

The 59-year-old was sentenced to life in 1977 on explosives charges and served almost 16 years of that sentence before being released on licence in 1992.

 

After his recent arrest he was told he will have to serve the rest of his original life sentence.

 

All charges against Mr Lillis, who weighs just five stone, were shelved last year because he was deemed too unwell to stand trial.

 

Yesterday Mr Lillis's partner of 12 years was joined by supporters at the site of the former Andersonstown RUC base where they began a hunger strike.

 

Roisin Lynch has shown her support for Mr Lillis.

 

She said: "I intend to stay on this protest until the end. I have tried everything over the past two years. I have contacted politicians and human rights groups but got nowhere. I have tried to meet with the minister for Justice David Ford but he won't meet me and won't speak to me.

 

"Brendan's life is in his hands. If he dies it will be David Ford's responsibility."

 

Former IRA hunger striker Gerard Hodgkins served time in jail with Mr Lillis and is taking part in a token three-day fast in support of his friend.

 

He said: "Brendan has no political affiliations at all, he is on his own and has no-one to campaign for him. If this man is going to die he should be allowed to do so with his family and a bit of dignity."

 

A spokesman for the Prison Service said: "The case is currently being considered by the Parole Commissioners, who, as an independent body, will consider all the evidence presented to them. This process is ongoing.

 

"Given the current circumstances applying to this case, there are not sufficient and exceptional grounds which would justify the release of Mr Lillis on compassionate grounds."

Source: Belfast Telegraph

 

In my opinion, we have a cheek to condemn any other nation for their human rights policies when such things are happening on our own doorstep.

[patiirc]

There's a campaign gathering pace in Ireland to see the release on compassionate grounds of Brendan Lillis. He's currently being held in Maghaberry despite the fact that he suffers from ankylosing spondylitis and has been bed-ridden for over two years. Apparently he weighs less than five stone and medical opinion is that he'll be lucky to last a month.

 

 

Source: Belfast Telegraph

 

In my opinion, we have a cheek to condemn any other nation for their human rights policies when such things are happening on our own doorstep.

 

They thought I had that

 

Debilitating, yes. Life threatening, no. You need to have HLA 327 ( iirc) to be diagnosed and a slew of other things including the 12 point test to even sort out a proper diagnosis from memory

 

I'm going with other issues as to why its so problematic, inc the low weight. Perhaps depression and other issues are causing this

[JNLister]

BNP had a leadership election yesterday. Nick Griffin beat challenger Andrew Brons by 1,156 votes to 1,148. And you thought Ed Miliband's victory wasn't resounding.

 

http://britainvotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/i...lt-for-bnp.html

[Frankie Crisp]

Thatcher's Hillsborough files must be released.

 

The government has been ordered to make public documents revealing discussions which the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher held about the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster, where 96 Liverpool fans were killed and for which the police were later blamed.

 

The Information Commissioner has now ruled that releasing the files would be in the public interest.

 

His judgment states that the "specific content of the information in question would add to public knowledge and understanding about the reaction of various parties to that event, including the Government of the day, in the early aftermath".

 

'Unjustified and excessive'

 

This is in response to a freedom of information application made by the BBC over two years ago. The Commissioner also strongly criticised the Cabinet Office for its "unjustified and excessive" delays in handling the BBC's request.

 

The Liverpool supporters were killed in an appalling crush of fans within the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, where the club was playing an FA Cup semi final. A subsequent inquiry held that the main reason for the overcrowding was the failure of police control.

 

Mrs Thatcher was briefed about the disaster in the days that followed it, and it was discussed at a number of meetings. The records to be disclosed include reports presented to her, correspondence between her office and that of the Home Secretary Douglas Hurd, and minutes of meetings she attended.

 

Some campaigners for the families of the victims have suggested that Mrs Thatcher sought to avoid the police being criticised.

 

'Diminishing case'

 

The meetings involved include a cabinet meeting. It is unusual for the Commissioner to order the disclosure of cabinet minutes, due to the need to protect the convention of collective responsibility.

 

The Commissioner argued that due to the reduction of the 30 year rule "there is a diminishing case for withholding information over 20 years old". Gordon Brown as prime minister pledged to reduce the existing 30 year period for making many state documents public, and the coalition government is starting to implement this plan.

 

In December 2009 the Labour government also set up an independent panel to review the documentation about the Hillsborough tragedy to assess what should now be made public. The Cabinet Office maintained that no material should be disclosed before the panel finishes its work, planned for next year. But the Commissioner discarded this as an irrelevant argument, since the panel had not existed at the time in April 2009 when the BBC's request was made.

 

The government now has to release the documents or appeal to a tribunal.

 

The Cabinet Office was recently compelled by the Information Commissioner, Chris Graham, to sign an undertaking to improve the way it handles FOI requests. Mr Graham took action against it because of the frequent severe delays in the Cabinet Office's handling of FOI applications

[Psygnosis]

Back to the disabled a sec..

 

http://twitpic.com/5wb6sv - Express '75% of disabled benefit claims are faking'

 

Question, how do the disabled put up with this bullshit from the media frequently? - disgraceful.

 

And Professor Harrington's report into the reforms is pretty damning http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...1015/101505.htm

Edited July 26, 2011 by Psygnosis

[patiirc]

Back to the disabled a sec..

 

http://twitpic.com/5wb6sv - Express '75% of disabled benefit claims are faking'

 

Question, how do the disabled put up with this bullshit from the media frequently? - disgraceful.

 

And Professor Harrington's report into the reforms is pretty damning http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...1015/101505.htm

 

 

Ignore it? If disabled and the incapacitated worried about every little change to it we'd go fucking nuts ( if we werent already)

 

 

Not read the report in to the reforms yet as per your link, but istr they were roundly criticised by a number of charities inc Scope for it.

 

I'm all for it, if they can get to a point of employing people in jobs (and create the necessary jobs for people to be employed) where the ex ESA claimants will be allowed to have extended sick periods, not turn up for shifts at very short notice, leave during their shifts because of incapability and so on. All this must be in place to not affect their chances of continued employment or disciplinary procedures being used or affect their career potential.

 

Some how the cynic in me cant see that happening, what a shock. Employers arent going to want unproductive unreliable workers who they cant control or at least work out what will happen from one day to the next. With the government making it easier to fire people as well. This is not going to end will. So there will either be a new poverty trap created ( cant wait for all the workhouse discussions to start again?) and genuine claimants will get shit on, its happening anyway. And its not that this a new thing either. The whole ESA re assessment stuff started in 2008 and has continued and been rolled out no matter what people have been in charge.

 

Filled in my DLA form the other week its going to take 8-11 weeks to assess, despite already being a claimant and having had medicals for the ESA, and DLA previously. This is as well as on going check ups with medical staff and supplying medical documentation confirming my condition and filling in a 58 page! form, on everything and anything to do with my condition. Again this is despite them having it all on record previously and no good changes since the last claim. I'm expecting another medical from the DLA at least to boot. Why they just cant write a letter to my gp/specialist to ask if all is still in order as per last time they gave us the cash eliminating much wastage in terms of costs for admin and medicals, is utterly beyond me.

 

Im all for change if its done properly, that's all I want, perhaps its too naive for me to expect other wise

[Psygnosis]

Took me approx 8 weeks to get my low rate DLA, plus I don't meet full criteria for a full time job (Type 1 Diabetic) but luckily I work part time with a great gaffer, although I had it on appeal which for each appeal that is successful (70%) is at a cost to the taxpayer

Edited July 27, 2011 by Psygnosis