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Just got back from the Lincoln show.I'd say attendance was about 320ish (venue holds around 400).*Robbie Dynamite beat Marty Scurill (MOTN, easily).*Danny Collins over Chris The Bambikiller (Collins was great, Bambikiller not so much).*Jonny Storm and Aaron Frost defeated Zebra Kid and Bad News Brown (Heel Zebra was awesome, Storm looked better than i've seen for a long time, other two were meh).*Brody Steel pinned The Smackdown Warrior (This seemingly never ended).*James Mason and Little Legs beat The Barbarian (Low on wrestling, high on entertainment, although i'd liked to have seen Mason in a more competitive match).No Whiplash, Sloane, Edwards, Collyer or Deano :(

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Thread resurrection for this afternoon's epic showdown at Reading's Hexagon. Match 1 Vito Peru Vs Tony Spitfire Vito Peru bested Tony Spitfire with some underhanded tactics and a sunset flip

Went to see All Star in Sunderland and met such characters as Bryan Danielson. A fan (wearing a Cactus Jack shirt) came up to him and asked him to sign a ROH poster with Danielson on it. Danielson (We

QUOTEYou were at Noah, do you think Noah claiming 2,400 people at their 1,500 max crowd is as bad?1500? With all floor seats filled, six blocks of seating completely filled (three on each side), and about another block of seating's worth scattered about, in a hall that's capacity 3400 for wrestling? Really? That was a less than half capacity? I know you got upset during the show because the emcee wasn't telling you who to boo and who to cheer and it scared and confused you, but really, have some dignity.

I didn't get upset at all, I loved the show, and I will say it was better than any ASW show I've ever been to!3,400 capacity when the whole venue is being used. 1/3 of the venue wasn't used at all, and not all the floor seating was out (having been at the WWE show there, I know how it is when all the floor seats are out). Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying other promotions give out free tickets, and other promotions lie about crowd sizes (something ASW never do, as they've got better things to do with their time, like count their profit)The blocks on the side at Noah weren't full or even close either, at least 5 rows of empty seats behind where my friends were sat in the cheap seats, and the far side of the arena was basically empty. Either way that's off topic, and isn't relevant here.I wonder how well ASW will do tomorrow in Stevenage...their first show there in over 5 years I believe, never been inside the venue but walked past it plenty of times and it looks quite big, we shall see!
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All Star once ran Chris Hero (representing England) Vs Paul Burchill (representing America) but it's OK because "it's All Star".

I sense sarcasm.
Nah. It's dumb, but only in a wrestling is dumb kind of way. Lots of things that insult people's intelligences just as much happen on all kinds of shows. I was just making the point, which I think is justified, that All Star get a pass for things like that and similar because they're All Star. An average promotion would get slammed for similar. I like All Star, as you know as I've spoken to you in person about it more than once, so I'm not sure why you're upset?I feel it's pretty pointless to post this, as Moj Vs All Star Fans is as old school UKFF as it gets...
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Re NOAH - you do know that there's actually no seats behind that curtain, right? It's a three sided arena, same as the ice rink in Cardiff. But yeah, you're right, off topic.

other promotions lie about crowd sizes (something ASW never do, as they've got better things to do with their time, like count their profit)

Firstly - there's no way they made a profit in Cardiff. Secondly - money is not the be all and end all, despite what right wingers would have you believe. I hadn't been to an All Star show since they got kicked out of their Bristol venue (due to low crowds), people told me they'd gotten better and they seemed to have stopped with the false advertising so I took a chance - bag of shit. I've seen a lot of bad wrestling over the last few years, but this show was the absolute dirt worst. There were so many things fundamentally wrong with it - from the wrestlers unable to get any reaction because they rely on the MC to do it for them, to business exposing matches, to the shoddy ring, to everything about Smackdown Warrior... poor on all counts. If you enjoy that style, God bless ya, but in my view it's a creatively worthless, lazy, two-bit production designed purely to get kids in to sell them WWE merchandise. I don't believe that that's what British wrestling should be about, REGARDLESS of how much money you can theoretically make doing it. Oh, also:

ENTER THE AMERICAN DRAGON ATCARDIFF ST. DAVID’S HALL NEXT WEEKThe delayed but still eagerly anticipated return of ‘American Dragon’ Bryan Danielson to All Star rings will now take place on Welsh soil on Thursday June 26 as part of a spectacular North America versus Great Britain event at St.David’s Hall in Cardiff.

All Star Wrestling - Thursday June 26, 2008, St. David's Hall, Cardiff, South Wales (175 crowd)1 - Mikey Whiplash pinned Frankie Sloan2 - Eddie Edwards pinned The Zulu Prince3 - Kid Cool & Deano defeated Chad Collyer & Robbie Dynamite4 - The Smackdown Warrior pinned Broady Steele5 - Handicap match: James Mason & Little Legs defeated "Barbarian" Karl Kramer

Edited by CracktonMoj
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Re NOAH - you do know that there's actually no seats behind that curtain, right? It's a three sided arena, same as the ice rink in Cardiff. But yeah, you're right, off topic.

Think you misunderstood, I didn't mean behind the curtain where the stage is, that's always curtained off, obviously. I mean on the side, where you can clearly see another 4 sections of seating behind a big black curtain at every non WWE I've been to there (didn't go TNA or International Showdown, so can't comment)Those seats probably account for a lot of those 3,400. But yes, off topic, so.....Fair enough I give you all those other points, but sometimes things are out of promoters control and you never know all the details. I'm sure Dragon was booked for the show at some point, and I believe you that it was probably a bad show looking at the results, and you have every right as a paying customer to say it was a bad show if you think it was. Believe me, I've seen some absolutely rubbish ASW shows over the years, but I've also seen some amazing ones, and ASW have produced some great ones recently, the last 2 Southend shows specifically both standing out.

QUOTE(The Dart @ Jun 26 2008, 22:38) QUOTEAll Star once ran Chris Hero (representing England) Vs Paul Burchill (representing America) but it's OK because "it's All Star".I sense sarcasm.Nah. It's dumb, but only in a wrestling is dumb kind of way. Lots of things that insult people's intelligences just as much happen on all kinds of shows. I was just making the point, which I think is justified, that All Star get a pass for things like that and similar because they're All Star. An average promotion would get slammed for similar. I like All Star, as you know as I've spoken to you in person about it more than once, so I'm not sure why you're upset?

I'm not upset my friend, just noting that it don't matter, especially at Butlins, and it happens all over the world!I think ASW get a pass, on here anyway, because they don't promote their shows on here, and don't 'officially' post on here like so many other promotions do, so in a weird kind of way, much like Premier Promotions, get reviewed and critisiced and praised in a different manner, don't ask why. Edited by The Dart
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You certainly didn't get to see the best of All Star there, and Broady isn't the guy to be getting good matches out of SD Warrior. Zulu hasn't been wrestling for an awfully long time, so he isn't going to be puting on great matches at this stage either.

There were so many things fundamentally wrong with it - from the wrestlers unable to get any reaction because they rely on the MC to do it for them, to business exposing matches, to the shoddy ring, to everything about Smackdown Warrior... poor on all counts. If you enjoy that style, God bless ya

I don't enjoy that style, how could anyone? I enjoy heated matches with great wrestlers like Dynamite, Brookside, Powers, Whippy, McDonald and others, in front of large crowds. Granted, you don't get this at every All Star show, but it's been this way pretty much at all of the 10 All Star shows I've been to this year (which included Croydon, Southend, Sunderland, Colchester and Gravesend). The last two Croydon shows have had a bit of a drop off in terms of crowd, but this may have been due to running the venue several times in close succesion. And not every match on an All Star show is great - I've even seen a couple of stinkers, but certainly no worse that anywhere else, albeit in a different style, perhaps. I've certainly never seen any "holiday camp bullshit" as I believe Carbomb put it at NOAH Night Two (apologies if that's a severe misquote), unless clapping your hands at the start of the match and shouting something akin to "come on everybody" is bullshit. And it sure isn't. Edited by Big Rob
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I've certainly never seen any "holiday camp bullshit" as I believe Carbomb put it at NOAH Night Two (apologies if that's a severe misquote), unless clapping your hands at the start of the match and shouting something akin to "come on everybody" is bullshit. And it sure isn't.

Eh? Did I say that? I remember chatting about All Star stuff in Coventry, but not at Vs. The World. If I did, then I apologise; I meant to say "carny shite".I have my own opinions on clapping the crowd up at the beginning of a match, but that's not why I'm not a fan of All Star; predominantly it's the whole "shall I?" deal, and the whole MC leading boos and cheers, even during the match, plus a few other things. I don't remember seeing that on TV in the WoS days, and I certainly don't see that in any other promotion on TV. If you like all that, fine - I won't judge you for it, but I have to agree with Moj when he calls it "creatively worthless". That doesn't make me a net-fan or a smark - I hate RoH, PWG and IWA:MS even more than ASW; but whether I'm looking for "wrasslin'" or Sports Entertainment, I just don't get it from All Star. I'm aware they do the odd classic that even net fans will like, but not often enough for me to risk buying a ticket on the off-chance it does happen. As for the set-up, forget it. Moj summed it up perfectly for me.Again, please remember that this is all my considered opinion, not an attempt to denigrate Dixon. He's a professional promoter - but for me, that's all he is. He's not a great creative talent, and, from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.
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I've certainly never seen any "holiday camp bullshit" as I believe Carbomb put it at NOAH Night Two (apologies if that's a severe misquote), unless clapping your hands at the start of the match and shouting something akin to "come on everybody" is bullshit. And it sure isn't.

Eh? Did I say that? I remember chatting about All Star stuff in Coventry, but not at Vs. The World. If I did, then I apologise; I meant to say "carny shite".I have my own opinions on clapping the crowd up at the beginning of a match, but that's not why I'm not a fan of All Star; predominantly it's the whole "shall I?" deal, and the whole MC leading boos and cheers, even during the match, plus a few other things. I don't remember seeing that on TV in the WoS days, and I certainly don't see that in any other promotion on TV. If you like all that, fine - I won't judge you for it, but I have to agree with Moj when he calls it "creatively worthless". That doesn't make me a net-fan or a smark - I hate RoH, PWG and IWA:MS even more than ASW; but whether I'm looking for "wrasslin'" or Sports Entertainment, I just don't get it from All Star. I'm aware they do the odd classic that even net fans will like, but not often enough for me to risk buying a ticket on the off-chance it does happen. As for the set-up, forget it. Moj summed it up perfectly for me.Again, please remember that this is all my considered opinion, not an attempt to denigrate Dixon. He's a professional promoter - but for me, that's all he is. He's not a great creative talent, and, from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.
ooof you really think that about dixon?
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I've certainly never seen any "holiday camp bullshit" as I believe Carbomb put it at NOAH Night Two (apologies if that's a severe misquote), unless clapping your hands at the start of the match and shouting something akin to "come on everybody" is bullshit. And it sure isn't.

Eh? Did I say that? I remember chatting about All Star stuff in Coventry, but not at Vs. The World. If I did, then I apologise; I meant to say "carny shite".I have my own opinions on clapping the crowd up at the beginning of a match, but that's not why I'm not a fan of All Star; predominantly it's the whole "shall I?" deal, and the whole MC leading boos and cheers, even during the match, plus a few other things. I don't remember seeing that on TV in the WoS days, and I certainly don't see that in any other promotion on TV. If you like all that, fine - I won't judge you for it, but I have to agree with Moj when he calls it "creatively worthless". That doesn't make me a net-fan or a smark - I hate RoH, PWG and IWA:MS even more than ASW; but whether I'm looking for "wrasslin'" or Sports Entertainment, I just don't get it from All Star. I'm aware they do the odd classic that even net fans will like, but not often enough for me to risk buying a ticket on the off-chance it does happen. As for the set-up, forget it. Moj summed it up perfectly for me.Again, please remember that this is all my considered opinion, not an attempt to denigrate Dixon. He's a professional promoter - but for me, that's all he is. He's not a great creative talent, and, from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.
ooof you really think that about dixon?
Let me put it to you this way: can you really argue against anything I've said in the last two lines? Is any show Dixon puts on creatively fresh or new, rather than the same thing regurgitated time and time again? Is he really contributing anything at all to getting British wrestling back to a position of prominence and mainstream awareness?And don't say "But he's a good promoter, he's making money", because that's not the question I'm asking. I'm well aware he's a good promoter inasmuch as he makes money and pays his workers - but so's Vince McMahon in that respect, and the advancements in his product are visible every year.
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The "who do you want to win?" stuff from the MC tends to only happen in rumbles from what I've seen this year, if at all. It's also certain MCs that do it as well, others don't. And I will say that I'm not a big fan of that particularly, and is certainly something that couldn't be taken seriously on TV, but during a rumble doesn't really hurt too much - I could well do without it though.In regards to lack of creativity - I liken All Star to a pantomime. You're going to get a good, solid show in your local town a few times a year, with a rotating cast of characters. It's not going to be a lavish production, but on the whole the kids will go home satisfied. They're never going to have the same kind of depth than say an SAS show (that being said I've not seen one in ages so they could be shite now, but what I've seen in the past now was very good), but thats mainly because Brian puts on up to 25 shows a month, and couldn't feasibly keep track of everything. If there were long-term, engaging storylines running from show to show, I'd probably enjoy the shows even more (quality storylines are what made IPW unmissable for me back in the day), but it probably wouldn't be worth all the hassle for a few extra punters.

from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.

I'd have to disagree with this. People who want to learn how to work will go to Brian (or Phil Powers, or the holiday camp circuit) for a job. There are exceptions - I don't believe guys like Dave Moralez, El Ligero and Martin Kirby have done All Star, and they're great. But guys like Marty Scrull, Robbie Dynamite, Dave Jackson and many others have improved greatly, or are currently getting better in Jackson's case, thanks to steady work with All Star. Ditto for Sloan's trainees who have started working for Brian. And when someone comes along who might have a chance of putting British Wrestling back in prominance, it'll be these guys who should give the product some credibility, at least from an in ring perspective.
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He's not a great creative talent, and, from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.

See thats where I beg to differ. I would argue its because he is a creative talent that hes in the position he is today, its just a different definition of creative.In the past Dixon pretty much saw off Dale Martin, who were arguably the number one promotion in the uk at the time, by agressively taking over their venues and putting on some fanastic shows. Shows that still appealed to all ages featuring feuds that he could easily keep interesting and make last a year or more without the use of laughable skits and lengthy promos.As the wrestling landscape has changed so has he and now he actively promotes stand alone shows still featuring pretty much all the best workers in the UK at some point of another.Hes probably now getting close to retirement so why should he be concerned with advancing British wrestling? I would imagine the only thing that would change his opinion or approach would be competition but no other promotion is close to becoming as successful...youd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of companies that even use professional theatres/arenas! Even talent-wise his current roster is head and shoulders above every other company in the uk and there are very few decent workers in the uk who dont work for him at least semi-regularly.
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from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.

I'd have to disagree with this. People who want to learn how to work will go to Brian (or Phil Powers, or the holiday camp circuit) for a job. There are exceptions - I don't believe guys like Dave Moralez, El Ligero and Martin Kirby have done All Star, and they're great. But guys like Marty Scrull, Robbie Dynamite, Dave Jackson and many others have improved greatly, or are currently getting better in Jackson's case, thanks to steady work with All Star. Ditto for Sloan's trainees who have started working for Brian. And when someone comes along who might have a chance of putting British Wrestling back in prominance, it'll be these guys who should give the product some credibility, at least from an in ring perspective.
That's a very fair point. Dixon runs more shows than anyone else in the UK, and with its very pronounced babyface/heel dynamic, there's a far better chance for people to grow and improve as a worker than on his shows than there are working for generic promotion (insert three initials here) who run once a month. Plus, while admittedly the show that Moj saw looked quite low on talent in comparison to the stuff I saw earlier this year, All Star has recently been promoting quite strong cards in as far as wrestling talent goes. Unfortunately, Moj's show had neither Carl Oulette, Rene Dupree nor Bryan Danielson (the recent star gaijin), nor did it have the likes of Zebra Kid, Phil Powers or Danny Collins. All people that a young wrestler learning or honing his craft could (and should) learn from.Rob is constantly banging on about the Whiplash vs Dynamite match from the IPW British National Tournament from Orpington last year, and how utterly awesome it was. While I'm not as in love with the match as Rob is, I'm happy to agree that the match was one of the tourney highlights to date and proves that the likes of Whippy and Dynamite can step out of the "Dixon Universe" and onto an IPW show and immediately show up much of the rest of the regular card. Being as good as they were was no accident.The Dixon product would never work on TV, but the mere fact that he's here and can make a living running pro-wrestling events around the entire country on a regular touring schedule and provide a lot of steady work for a lot of people is contributing far more to the British Wrestling scene than the majority of once-a-month promoters.Also, as far as "contributing nothing" to the scene - one of the most pleasant things about going to a Dixon show is that since the shows are usually in theatres and so-on, there are always professional uniformed stewards to show you to your seat. There's an air of professionalism that isn't at many other shows. If I was a cynical parent and took my child to see his first wrestling show on the back of some advertisement that came through my door, I feel fairly certain that I'd feel more inclined to take my child back to see more wrestling after having experienced the professionalism of a Dixon show than I would had I gone to a promotion where they've got some fan taking ticket money and maybe some stewards/security who are also clearly fans in T-shirts, or where the show starts 45 minutes late for no explained reason. Maybe, after my second or third visit to a Dixon run show, then perhaps I consider taking my theoretical child to a SAS show, or an IPW show, or whatever. Dixon's mere presence (and the fact that he gets more people in the door than anyone else) keeps the concept of British Wrestling alive in the minds of a large number of the population.
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I extrapolated from this that when Dixon actually draws 700 (say) he actually draws the 200 that other companies do, plus the hundreds of comps, and of course makes his money selling tat. Which is fair enough, but it does rather invalidate the 'DIXON IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN DRAW AND HIS STYLE IS THE WAY TO GO, LOL AT PEOPLE TRYING TO PUT ON GOOD MATCHES LOL' bullshit that permeates this here thread.

I've just read through the entire topic. There is nothing even close to what you said at all.You've either imagined it, seen it in some other topics, or have made it up. :confused: There's plenty of people praising the fact that there are large consistently large crowds, but if you can find any cases of people critisizing any other company feel free to quote it. I must have missed it.So because nobody in here is critisizing any other promotions, your theory that some of the crowd got in for free which doesn't happen at LDN means fuck all.If somebody actually gives a shit about whether there are comps or not and tells you you are lying, then let the discussion begin.
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Not really wishing to drag myself into this discussion too deeply, but I just want to say that one thing I do enjoy about All Star, and other promotions of its ilk, is that it has none of this duelling chant bullshit we have to regularly endure at indie shows promoted for internet fans.I REALLY hate that shit (and apparently quite a few wrestlers do to!)That is all I want to say on the matter.

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from the only point of view that matters to me in terms of British wrestling and its advancement, contributes absolutely fuck-all.

I'd have to disagree with this. People who want to learn how to work will go to Brian (or Phil Powers, or the holiday camp circuit) for a job. There are exceptions - I don't believe guys like Dave Moralez, El Ligero and Martin Kirby have done All Star, and they're great. But guys like Marty Scrull, Robbie Dynamite, Dave Jackson and many others have improved greatly, or are currently getting better in Jackson's case, thanks to steady work with All Star. Ditto for Sloan's trainees who have started working for Brian. And when someone comes along who might have a chance of putting British Wrestling back in prominance, it'll be these guys who should give the product some credibility, at least from an in ring perspective.
That's a very fair point. Dixon runs more shows than anyone else in the UK, and with its very pronounced babyface/heel dynamic, there's a far better chance for people to grow and improve as a worker than on his shows than there are working for generic promotion (insert three initials here) who run once a month. Plus, while admittedly the show that Moj saw looked quite low on talent in comparison to the stuff I saw earlier this year, All Star has recently been promoting quite strong cards in as far as wrestling talent goes. Unfortunately, Moj's show had neither Carl Oulette, Rene Dupree nor Bryan Danielson (the recent star gaijin), nor did it have the likes of Zebra Kid, Phil Powers or Danny Collins. All people that a young wrestler learning or honing his craft could (and should) learn from.Rob is constantly banging on about the Whiplash vs Dynamite match from the IPW British National Tournament from Orpington last year, and how utterly awesome it was. While I'm not as in love with the match as Rob is, I'm happy to agree that the match was one of the tourney highlights to date and proves that the likes of Whippy and Dynamite can step out of the "Dixon Universe" and onto an IPW show and immediately show up much of the rest of the regular card. Being as good as they were was no accident.The Dixon product would never work on TV, but the mere fact that he's here and can make a living running pro-wrestling events around the entire country on a regular touring schedule and provide a lot of steady work for a lot of people is contributing far more to the British Wrestling scene than the majority of once-a-month promoters.Also, as far as "contributing nothing" to the scene - one of the most pleasant things about going to a Dixon show is that since the shows are usually in theatres and so-on, there are always professional uniformed stewards to show you to your seat. There's an air of professionalism that isn't at many other shows. If I was a cynical parent and took my child to see his first wrestling show on the back of some advertisement that came through my door, I feel fairly certain that I'd feel more inclined to take my child back to see more wrestling after having experienced the professionalism of a Dixon show than I would had I gone to a promotion where they've got some fan taking ticket money and maybe some stewards/security who are also clearly fans in T-shirts, or where the show starts 45 minutes late for no explained reason. Maybe, after my second or third visit to a Dixon run show, then perhaps I consider taking my theoretical child to a SAS show, or an IPW show, or whatever. Dixon's mere presence (and the fact that he gets more people in the door than anyone else) keeps the concept of British Wrestling alive in the minds of a large number of the population.
Bang on. To put it even more simply if 1000 casual punters go to an Allstar show and 1000 leave happy then that 1000 potential punters for other promotions. Allstar run the most shows and more often than not these days they are good. Whether they appeal to you or not they serve there purpose on delivering a good fun product and send the fans home happy. If it wasn't for them frankly there wouldn't be anywhere in the country for wrestlers to hone there craft. So yes creatively for a more jaded wrestling fan or even an adult wrestling fan it may not appeal but to the casual WWE audience is simple and effective. Frankly if your a smart mark I'd of thought it would appeal as much as the causal because it allows you witness brilliant crowd manipulation and usually a good bit of ring work with a hot crowd.
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