Undertaker/Sting discussion thread, inc 14/02 *Raw Spoilers*

[thefallenangel]

Could Sting be the person to finally convince Vinnie to turn Cena heel?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Why is it whether the subject is Sting supposedly signing for WWE or fucking Mr. Bean's new film coming out at the pictures, it always goes back to "Cena should turn heel"?

[BenPhoenix]

Edited February 5, 2011 by BenPhoenix

[FLips]

Too much spare time.

[BenPhoenix]

Or a hobby..

[PowerButchi]

Although the only serious point I'd argue is that McMahon could've done plenty to market Hash - he's worked with plenty of unusual guys before: Earthquake, Umaga, Yoko, etc. One thing Hash in spades was fire; all they'd have had to do was an Umaga job on him - wordless, insane foreigner who looks different but tough, and would kick seven shades of shit out of you. It wouldn't have made him massive, but he'd have been recognisable by the end of it.

 

Yeah, but he looked like a fat oriental baby-lesbian cross, like him who was in roh. I don't see people queueing up to see a fatter Mike Yanagita.

 

He can have all the fire he wants, as soon as they saw those 32DDs and those glorified trackies he'd wrestle in, he'd be as dead as the Lindburgh baby. Umaga looked like an armour plated mother fucker. I don't thin this face has the same effect

Edited February 5, 2011 by ButchReedMark

[Carbomb]

Although the only serious point I'd argue is that McMahon could've done plenty to market Hash - he's worked with plenty of unusual guys before: Earthquake, Umaga, Yoko, etc. One thing Hash in spades was fire; all they'd have had to do was an Umaga job on him - wordless, insane foreigner who looks different but tough, and would kick seven shades of shit out of you. It wouldn't have made him massive, but he'd have been recognisable by the end of it.

 

Yeah, but he looked like a fat oriental baby-lesbian cross, like him who was in roh. I don't see people queueing up to see a fatter Mike Yanagita.

 

He can have all the fire he wants, as soon as they saw those 32DDs and those glorified trackies he'd wrestle in, he'd be as dead as the Lindburgh baby. Umaga looked like an armour plated mother fucker. I don't thin this face has the same effect

 

I really don't agree, and generally feel his first match would have given him the required aura. Moobs mean nothing - very people laughed at Yoko or Big Daddy V. And yes, he looks like a Fat Elvis - that didn't seem to stop Samoa Joe getting over as an arse-kicker. I'm not a fan of Joe at all, but it's difficult to deny that one of his strengths is his aura that he's cultivated from his work - people ignore his look because of his style and intensity; Hashimoto had that intensity and "effectiveness" ten times over.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I really don't agree, and generally feel his first match would have given him the required aura. Moobs mean nothing - very people laughed at Yoko or Big Daddy V.

Big Daddy V was a walking joke. Everyone laughed at him. Was Big Daddy V ever taken seriously? He was a 40 stone bloke wearing IRS's suspenders. The whole gimmick was a bit of a giggle, because he had his shirt off. Also, Yokozuna was a freak of nature. He was unlike anyone you'd ever seen before, or since. Its hard not to take a 600 pound wrestler who's whole gimmick was based around the fact he was a giant salt throwing sumo wrestler, who had Mr. Fuji by his side.

 

And yes, he looks like a Fat Elvis - that didn't seem to stop Samoa Joe getting over as an arse-kicker. I'm not a fan of Joe at all, but it's difficult to deny that one of his strengths is his aura that he's cultivated from his work - people ignore his look because of his style and intensity; Hashimoto had that intensity and "effectiveness" ten times over.

WWE never hired Joe, though. And the WWE actually told Mick Foley where to go when he suggested they hire him and CM Punk in 2005. The audience Joe got over with, is the audience Hashimoto was over with in the US. The WWF/WWE is a different world all together. I cant see how he'd have gotten over. Hogan's era was all about the giant, colourful, character driven or manager lead heel. If Hogan could beat Earthquake, Andre The Giant, Big John Studd and Zeus, he'd have had no bother with a small fat Japanese bloke. And Austin's era wasnt fit for him either. In Austins era, if you didnt sell a Super Soaker or looked good with your face on a funny car you werent over. Another thing is his ring style. Hall and Nash worked with him in Hustle and Nash had words with him afterwards because he thought he was trying to get clever and shoot with him, but instead thats actually the way he worked in the ring. That wouldnt be taken well in the WWF.

[King Pitcos]

I don't know why anyone's even entertaining the notion that the biggest wrestling star to never work for WWE is someone that nobody in America (except hardcore wrestling nerds) has ever heard of. That fat Japanese bloke means as much to the average wrestling fan as Derrick Bateman did this time last year, and less than Derrick Bateman does now.

[Carbomb]

I really don't agree, and generally feel his first match would have given him the required aura. Moobs mean nothing - very people laughed at Yoko or Big Daddy V.

Big Daddy V was a walking joke. Everyone laughed at him. Was Big Daddy V ever taken seriously? He was a 40 stone bloke wearing IRS's suspenders. The whole gimmick was a bit of a giggle, because he had his shirt off. Also, Yokozuna was a freak of nature. He was unlike anyone you'd ever seen before, or since. Its hard not to take a 600 pound wrestler who's whole gimmick was based around the fact he was a giant salt throwing sumo wrestler, who had Mr. Fuji by his side.

 

Big Daddy V was taken relatively seriously as they went along - he was pushed pretty hard, looked quite effective, and he was even in a few main-events outside the ECW brand. I don't think it's true that "everyone laughed at him".

 

Yokozuna WAS taken seriously, true, but that's because from his debut, he'd demonstrated he'd destroy whomever was in the ring with him. His appearance, whilst not laughable, was not exactly fear-inspiring - he had moobs, a pear-shaped body with an arse like an amphitheatre, a weird haircut (by Western lights), and silly pants with a big bow on the back (again, silly by Western lights).

 

And yes, he looks like a Fat Elvis - that didn't seem to stop Samoa Joe getting over as an arse-kicker. I'm not a fan of Joe at all, but it's difficult to deny that one of his strengths is his aura that he's cultivated from his work - people ignore his look because of his style and intensity; Hashimoto had that intensity and "effectiveness" ten times over.

WWE never hired Joe, though. And the WWE actually told Mick Foley where to go when he suggested they hire him and CM Punk in 2005. The audience Joe got over with, is the audience Hashimoto was over with in the US. The WWF/WWE is a different world all together. I cant see how he'd have gotten over. Hogan's era was all about the giant, colourful, character driven or manager lead heel. If Hogan could beat Earthquake, Andre The Giant, Big John Studd and Zeus, he'd have had no bother with a small fat Japanese bloke. And Austin's era wasnt fit for him either. In Austins era, if you didnt sell a Super Soaker or looked good with your face on a funny car you werent over. Another thing is his ring style. Hall and Nash worked with him in Hustle and Nash had words with him afterwards because he thought he was trying to get clever and shoot with him, but instead thats actually the way he worked in the ring. That wouldnt be taken well in the WWF.

 

No, WWE never hired Joe - could've sworn they were reported as having a lot of interest in him, though.

 

Hashimoto wasn't a "small, fat Japanese bloke", though. He was actually pretty big, both height and width-wise - about 6' and 300lbs. Not far off Umaga. And like I say, he had fire in spades.

 

It's all very well saying "he could have all the fire he wants, he wouldn't get over", but I genuinely believe that's just not true - fire makes a huge difference in anyone's game, it's not just some mystic, ephemeral catch-all phrase. It can be the entire difference between a guy looking like he's trying to wrestle, and looking like he's actually wrestling like he means it. The difference between Jamal of 3MW and Umaga was fire, not just his character. Watch the difference between his performances of both, and you'll see that straight away. Look at Daniel Bryan's performances - one of the smallest guys on the roster, and his matches are a joy to behold, not just because of his technical ability and psych, but because he wrestles like he means it - that's fire. Brian Pillman was one of the smallest guys in wrestling, and no matter what character he played, people got behind him, to the point where even now, there's often discussion about whether he'd have become champion if he hadn't died - it's because he was one of the fieriest wrestlers ever to set foot in the ring; he was not just aggressive, he attacked like he meant it.

 

It's not a Japanese thing, it's something you see everywhere. On the British scene, I can point out Dave Mastiff and Luke Phoenix - both shortish, pale guys (although Dave's a beast physically), but people are drawn to their performances because of their fire.

 

I'm not saying fire is the all-important aspect to a wrestler's game - there are plenty of other things which can make a wrestler world-class, but in the case of wrestlers who don't necessarily look the part, I've seen it make a huge difference. Ultimately, I think we're going to have to disagree on Hash. I think people would have laughed at his first appearance, but by the end of his first match, competitive or squash, he'd have them convinced.

 

And, just as importantly, I'm of the opinion that WWE have demonstrated plenty of times in the past that, if they want to market someone well, they'll do it - they've got the expertise and experience, and they almost always find an angle for someone they're particularly bothered about.

[Carbomb]

I don't know why anyone's even entertaining the notion that the biggest wrestling star to never work for WWE is someone that nobody in America (except hardcore wrestling nerds) has ever heard of. That fat Japanese bloke means as much to the average wrestling fan as Derrick Bateman did this time last year, and less than Derrick Bateman does now.

 

As I said before, I was doing it from a purely "statistics for shits and giggles" perspective. The debate on Hashimoto now is about whether McMahon could've marketed him, not if he's biggest name to never work for WWE.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Big Daddy V was taken relatively seriously as they went along - he was pushed pretty hard, looked quite effective, and he was even in a few main-events outside the ECW brand. I don't think it's true that "everyone laughed at him".

It was Mable with his top off! The commentators might have had a go at trying to get him over, but he was still Mable with his top off. The fact he never amouted to anything and didnt get over might have proved he wasnt taken seriously in the slightest.

 

Yokozuna WAS taken seriously, true, but that's because from his debut, he'd demonstrated he'd destroy whomever was in the ring with him. His appearance, whilst not laughable, was not exactly fear-inspiring - he had moobs, a pear-shaped body with an arse like an amphitheatre, a weird haircut (by Western lights), and silly pants with a big bow on the back (again, silly by Western lights).

Isnt that the point though? Yokozuna was a samoan they made into a fearful Japanese bloke. He was a scary size, had a menacing look and with Fuji by his side looked to have this souless glare in his eyes like he didnt give a fuck. And he beat Hulk Hogan and kicked out of the legdrop. And he had several moves which would probably kill you in reallife. I know watching it with my Dad as a young lad, he didnt want to be sat on or take a Yokozuna legdrop. He wasnt plump and pie eating fat like Hashimoto was. He was a freak of nature. Hashimoto looks like another Fat Japanese bloke, where as Yokozuna looked like he was straight from the pen of some artists pages.

 

Hashimoto wasn't a "small, fat Japanese bloke", though. He was actually pretty big, both height and width-wise - about 6' and 300lbs. Not far off Umaga. And like I say, he had fire in spades.

He was 5'11 wasnt he? And that was he billed height. Umaga was 6'4". And, next to Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Steve Austin, The Rock, Bill Goldberg, The Undertaker or Mick Foley or even a Bart Gunn or many of the WWF/WWE's midcarders in the 80s or 90s, he'd have looked ordinary.

 

It's all very well saying "he could have all the fire he wants, he wouldn't get over", but I genuinely believe that's just not true - fire makes a huge difference in anyone's game, it's not just some mystic, ephemeral catch-all phrase. It can be the entire difference between a guy looking like he's trying to wrestle, and looking like he's actually wrestling like he means it.

I never said anything about having all the fire he wants, but look at Billy Gunn. He had more fire than anyone on the WWF roster, but the other things he brought to the table didnt weigh up to what the people wanted. "Having fire" only gets you so far. You need to actually connect with the audience before they can by into your fire and your comebacks and looking like your about to sing Teddy Bear and Love Me Tender isnt going to help you out when its time to hit your superhuman comeback. RVD has no fire at all and is full of stalling, but there's no denying he's superover and the fans look past his weaknesses.

 

The difference between Jamal of 3MW and Umaga was fire, not just his character. Watch the difference between his performances of both, and you'll see that straight away.

And because he was young, green and had his push stopped because he injured most of the roster. You cant compare a young inexperienced Jamal to Umaga. Its like saying "look at Hogan when he was Sterling Golden compared to the match he had on Nitro with Lex Luger". Talent progresses, the ability to work a crowd progresses and you gain more experience.

 

It's not a Japanese thing, it's something you see everywhere. On the British scene, I can point out Dave Mastiff and Luke Phoenix - both shortish, pale guys (although Dave's a beast physically), but people are drawn to their performances because of their fire.

Who's drawn to it though? Your getting off the subject. That isnt the discussion at all. Dave Mastiff isnt working for a company that has you plugged down to 6 minutes before the next commercial, tells you your back from the adverts and the pick the pace up and to quickly go into the finish because they are running into the next segment. Mastiff is an independent wrestler and I'm sure a fine one, but if he wrestled for the WWE he'd be sent to work in FCW for about a year to learn how to work infront of 14,000 people per night and to an audience of millions who dont want to see movez and bland personalities.

 

I'm not saying fire is the all-important aspect to a wrestler's game - there are plenty of other things which can make a wrestler world-class, but in the case of wrestlers who don't necessarily look the part, I've seen it make a huge difference. Ultimately, I think we're going to have to disagree on Hash. I think people would have laughed at his first appearance, but by the end of his first match, competitive or squash, he'd have them convinced.

Who's going to take the offence that comes with the fire you mention though? Kevin Nash didnt want to take it. Even our good pal Lance Storm said its a ridiculous way to wrestle. WWE wrestlers wrestle 4 nights a week. Hashimoto's not going to be able to kick lumps out of his opponents like he did when he was alive. Take away all the bells and whistles form Hashimotos offense, and your not left with much. Your left with Vegas Elvis, probably.

 

And, just as importantly, I'm of the opinion that WWE have demonstrated plenty of times in the past that, if they want to market someone well, they'll do it - they've got the expertise and experience, and they almost always find an angle for someone they're particularly bothered about

Yeah, but the original point was that he wouldnt connect with the WWE audience, because his look wasnt fitting with the WWE product. If WWE had hired him, he would have probably been dressed up in a hilarious getup and told to dance with the Divas. Before being sacked. He didnt have interview skills, he didnt have a good look, he worked a Japanese style, his outfit was terrible, he had Ji Sung Parks hair and he hit really hard. He ticked every box on the WWF hate list.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Ian_hitmanhart

[Whiskey_Jim]

Could Sting be the person to finally convince Vinnie to turn Cena heel?

It would be unwise to turn Cena, same as it was unwise to turn Jeff Hardy. Its wasting your biggest cash horse, its not called the wrestling BUSINESS for nothing. Its still about making money. Its the older generation of fan who dislike Cena, not the younger. The majority of the 18-28 year old male demographic are more interested in UFC at the moment so WWE appeal to the younger fanbase with their 'Super-faces' who appeal to the younger fanbase such as Cena and Mysterio. It makes no business sense to turn Cena regardless of who comes in.

[Carbomb]

It was Mable with his top off! The commentators might have had a go at trying to get him over, but he was still Mable with his top off. The fact he never amouted to anything and didnt get over might have proved he wasnt taken seriously in the slightest.

 

I was under the impression he didn't amount to anything because he was released for refusing to lose weight. At the time he was being pushed heavily. It's difficult to comment one way or the other if he was getting over or not because he was on SD and ECW while it was attached to SD.

 

Isnt that the point though? Yokozuna was a samoan they made into a fearful Japanese bloke. He was a scary size, had a menacing look and with Fuji by his side looked to have this souless glare in his eyes like he didnt give a fuck. And he beat Hulk Hogan and kicked out of the legdrop. And he had several moves which would probably kill you in reallife. I know watching it with my Dad as a young lad, he didnt want to be sat on or take a Yokozuna legdrop. He wasnt plump and pie eating fat like Hashimoto was. He was a freak of nature. Hashimoto looks like another Fat Japanese bloke, where as Yokozuna looked like he was straight from the pen of some artists pages.

 

No. If anything, you've just proved my point - kicking out of the ledrop and his moves are things you do after your first appearance. As to his appearance, apart from the soulless glare, he looked odd, and as a kid who at the time knew very little about Japan (the only thing I knew was that he didn't look Japanese at all), I thought other people might laugh.

 

Hashimoto didn't look "plump and pie-eating". He was fat, but he looked like he had a solid gut, not soft flab.

 

I think we're getting bogged down in semantics and subjective descriptions now to prove our respective points here. We could easily use descriptive language to assert or rebut them, so it's probably best to agree to disagree on look. I thought Hash looked hard, and that he would convince any doubters with his work.

 

He was 5'11 wasnt he? And that was he billed height. Umaga was 6'4". And, next to Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, Steve Austin, The Rock, Bill Goldberg, The Undertaker or Mick Foley or even a Bart Gunn or many of the WWF/WWE's midcarders in the 80s or 90s, he'd have looked ordinary.

 

In the 90s, I don't think it would have made that much difference, there were a lot of smaller workers back then. Austin was 6'2", Michaels was 6', as was Bret, X-Pac, etc. Either way, though, he wasn't as small as you're saying, and I still maintain his performances would have borne him out as a relatively solid member of the card.

 

I never said anything about having all the fire he wants, but look at Billy Gunn. He had more fire than anyone on the WWF roster, but the other things he brought to the table didnt weigh up to what the people wanted. "Having fire" only gets you so far. You need to actually connect with the audience before they can by into your fire and your comebacks and looking like your about to sing Teddy Bear and Love Me Tender isnt going to help you out when its time to hit your superhuman comeback. RVD has no fire at all and is full of stalling, but there's no denying he's superover and the fans look past his weaknesses.

 

First off, I was referring to Butch's quote (I don't know if he wants to continue participating in this discussion, but I felt I should include that point in case).

 

Secondly, Billy Gunn didn't have that much fire. In fact, I'd say it's a lack of fire that contributed, along with a lack of mike skills, to his inability to get over as a main eventer. He had everything else: tons of athletic ability and physical strength, a great look and technical competence, but fire was not one of his strengths.

 

And no, I disagree with your point about fire. Fire is what enables you to connect with an audience - fire is what gives your comebacks value. There's a reason why the pros don't call a comeback a comeback, they call it a "face fire". And Hash's look would have been irrelevant by the time he got to it - his entire game was infused with fire. Genuine question here: how many Hashimoto matches have you watched?

 

The difference between Jamal of 3MW and Umaga was fire, not just his character. Watch the difference between his performances of both, and you'll see that straight away.

And because he was young, green and had his push stopped because he injured most of the roster. You cant compare a young inexperienced Jamal to Umaga. Its like saying "look at Hogan when he was Sterling Golden compared to the match he had on Nitro with Lex Luger". Talent progresses, the ability to work a crowd progresses and you gain more experience.

 

Yes, and that experience and ability to work a crowd includes the development of fire. I know I'm using the word a lot here, but it's because I think it's genuinely important. It's not some flowery, poetic term, it's a valid element of a successful pro-wrestler, just as how we often talk about having that "It" factor being important too.

 

I'm not going to belabour the point too much, as I don't want to be name-dropping, but during my time working in BritWres, I got to meet several Japanese legends, and a few Westerners who worked in Japan too, and got the chance to sit down and pick their brains. Nearly every single one, from Misawa to Kobashi to SUWA to The Great Muta, considers fire to be an essential part of a pro-wrestler's game.

 

Who's drawn to it though? Your getting off the subject. That isnt the discussion at all. Dave Mastiff isnt working for a company that has you plugged down to 6 minutes before the next commercial, tells you your back from the adverts and the pick the pace up and to quickly go into the finish because they are running into the next segment. Mastiff is an independent wrestler and I'm sure a fine one, but if he wrestled for the WWE he'd be sent to work in FCW for about a year to learn how to work infront of 14,000 people per night and to an audience of millions who dont want to see movez and bland personalities.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions there. Just because Mastiff's an independent wrestler doesn't mean he wrestles like one. He's got a strong character, something I know he's developed from years of working on it, and he doesn't do "movez" - he's got excellent psych and has deliberately gone out of his way to try to work the mainstream American style, which was his motivation for hitting OVW last year. I know it sounds like I'm shilling him, but I'm not involved with BritWres any more.

 

Secondly, I'm not getting off subject, because I'm referring to different examples of where you can see fire and how it's considered a universal trait of pro-wrestling, whether in front of large audiences in arenas, or in small town halls. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, but that's what I was getting at.

 

Who's going to take the offence that comes with the fire you mention though? Kevin Nash didnt want to take it. Even our good pal Lance Storm said its a ridiculous way to wrestle. WWE wrestlers wrestle 4 nights a week. Hashimoto's not going to be able to kick lumps out of his opponents like he did when he was alive. Take away all the bells and whistles form Hashimotos offense, and your not left with much. Your left with Vegas Elvis, probably.

 

Again, you're making a jump. At no point have I said fire = stiffness, and I never would. In fact, it's why I so often slag off the American indy style, because that's the exact jump so many of their wrestlers make - most of the guys in RoH and what-have-you wrestle the stupid way they do because they're trying to imitate the Japanese style, and they get it completely and utterly wrong. The Japanese style is NOT about stiffness and head-drops.

 

Also, it's not as if WWE never ever had any stiff wrestlers who worked the same schedule. Benoit, Regal, RVD, 'Taker, etc.

 

Hashimoto wasn't the only wrestler with fire. Bret Hart had loads of it, and he was as light as a feather. Kobashi, despite all his chops, is actually known amongst his peers as being quite light, but is nicknamed "The Burning" because he's considered to be the fieriest wrestler in the business. The Great Muta/Mutoh Keiji had plenty of fire, but most wrestlers will tell you he's pretty light. Vader is probably the most notorious - plenty of fire, but by a lot of accounts was not stiff.

 

And, just as importantly, I'm of the opinion that WWE have demonstrated plenty of times in the past that, if they want to market someone well, they'll do it - they've got the expertise and experience, and they almost always find an angle for someone they're particularly bothered about

Yeah, but the original point was that he wouldnt connect with the WWE audience, because his look wasnt fitting with the WWE product. If WWE had hired him, he would have probably been dressed up in a hilarious getup and told to dance with the Divas. Before being sacked. He didnt have interview skills, he didnt have a good look, he worked a Japanese style, his outfit was terrible, he had Ji Sung Parks hair and he hit really hard. He ticked every box on the WWF hate list.

 

That's getting off the point now. I'm saying WWE COULD have marketed him, not that they would have marketed him. We're talking about, effectively, about whether or not he had anything they could work with, and I'm saying he did. Look is important in WWE, but they've proven time and time again they can make any look work, from Earthquake to Daniel Bryan to Mick Foley to Big Daddy V (IMO the best fat monster since 'Quake) to even Colin What's-His-Face before they released him.

 

And Hash's fire would've easily backed that up, and made him convincing.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

No. If anything, you've just proved my point - kicking out of the ledrop and his moves are things you do after your first appearance. As to his appearance, apart from the soulless glare, he looked odd, and as a kid who at the time knew very little about Japan (the only thing I knew was that he didn't look Japanese at all), I thought other people might laugh.

He was the biggest wrestler to ever step foot in a WWF ring and beat Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart in the space of a few months. His whole look was perfect for the early 90s WWF. He was giant and dominating. Hashimoto is worlds apart as far as his look goes.

 

In the 90s, I don't think it would have made that much difference, there were a lot of smaller workers back then. Austin was 6'2", Michaels was 6', as was Bret, X-Pac, etc. Either way, though, he wasn't as small as you're saying, and I still maintain his performances would have borne him out as a relatively solid member of the card.

You have to look at the alround package. Bret's interview skills were limited in the early 90s, but he was colourful, likable and incredible in the ring. Michaels wasnt charismatic, looked great and was brilliant in the ring. 123 Kid was tiny, but he was lovable and had the heart of a lion. Hashimoto had about 50 things to over come. He wasnt lovable. He was out of shape. He wasnt cool. He kicked people really hard. The fact Vince McMahon shook his head when Morishima walked into his office the other year, proves my point that the WWF wouldnt have wanted this guy on their roster.

 

Secondly, Billy Gunn didn't have that much fire. In fact, I'd say it's a lack of fire that contributed, along with a lack of mike skills, to his inability to get over as a main eventer. He had everything else: tons of athletic ability and physical strength, a great look and technical competence, but fire was not one of his strengths.

Of course it was. How many Billy Gunn matches have you watched? It was probably his only fucking strength considering WWF kept putting him as the hot tagging second man in tag teams for most of his 10 years. Those punches, which lead to the gorilla press and all the other stuff he did in the Smoking Gunns and in the New Age Outlaws (two very popular teams), basically kept him in a job for over a decade.

 

Genuine question here: how many Hashimoto matches have you watched?

Enough over the years to know what I'm talking about on the subject. Hense me keep bringing up examples of why he wouldnt have worked in the WWF in any era throughout his career.

 

And no, I disagree with your point about fire. Fire is what enables you to connect with an audience - fire is what gives your comebacks value. There's a reason why the pros don't call a comeback a comeback, they call it a "face fire". And Hash's look would have been irrelevant by the time he got to it - his entire game was infused with fire.

That means absolutely nothing, if people dont give a shit about you people the bell starts. Look at late 1996 Rock. He still did those quick fire rounds of fists, still did the same samoan drop and Rock Bottom and all the trademarks and all the gimmicks, but the frizzy haired, smiley lad had chants of "Rocky Sucks", because whether your comebacks are the shit or whether they look terrible, if your gimmick isnt over and if people see through you, your fucked. Disagree all you want, but there is a million cases to point to me being correct.

 

Yes, and that experience and ability to work a crowd includes the development of fire. I know I'm using the word a lot here, but it's because I think it's genuinely important. It's not some flowery, poetic term, it's a valid element of a successful pro-wrestler, just as how we often talk about having that "It" factor being important too.

I'm lost now. Jamal and Umaga are two different beasts all together, with two different styles of how to potray the character and how to work the gimmick both in the ring and out. I was pointing out that bringing up Umaga and Jamal was irrelevent to the current discussion. If they'd have given him the Umaga gimmick in 2002, it would have bombed, because he didnt know what he was doing. He was straight out of OVW and still green, to the point where WWE let him go. They wouldnt have rehired him back if they thought he hadnt progressed as a worker.

 

I'm not going to belabour the point too much, as I don't want to be name-dropping, but during my time working in BritWres, I got to meet several Japanese legends, and a few Westerners who worked in Japan too, and got the chance to sit down and pick their brains. Nearly every single one, from Misawa to Kobashi to SUWA to The Great Muta, considers fire to be an essential part of a pro-wrestler's game.

Fire is an essential part, of course it is, that isnt the argument. No matter if you spoke to Kenta Kobashi or Shunsuke Nakamura, the basic reason why North American wrestling is/was so popular is because of the characters, and if your not over your fucked. Thats why WWF loved and still does do introduction vignettes and fills its shows with interviews and skits. Thats why Vince McMahon and Steve Austin was the biggest feud they ever did without them even wrestling until 18 months after they feuded and why the nWo was such a massive money spinner. Hogan could barely move in 1996/97 and Sting never wreslted from mid-1996 to late 1997. Thats the whole point of this discussion. Its all about the look, the interviews, the connection with the faces and THEN the big battle between two people we care about. Fire and heavy kicks are low on the list of why many of us put the wrestling on at 2 in the morning.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions there. Just because Mastiff's an independent wrestler doesn't mean he wrestles like one. He's got a strong character, something I know he's developed from years of working on it, and he doesn't do "movez" - he's got excellent psych and has deliberately gone out of his way to try to work the mainstream American style, which was his motivation for hitting OVW last year. I know it sounds like I'm shilling him, but I'm not involved with BritWres any more.

I never said he wasnt good. I said, the WWE has a certain type of wrestler, and that doesnt include working infront of 75 people in Chester or doing a shit angle Alex Shane told you to do at a Expo. He might be a fine wrestler, in the mold of a Daniel Bryan, but that didnt stop him going to developmental.

 

Again, you're making a jump. At no point have I said fire = stiffness, and I never would.

I never said it was. I'm saying, nobody would take his offence that one former WWF wrestler I know of (who I've used as an example) would take it. Jushin Liger and The Great Muta were awesome in the United States for years in WCW, and would have fit in with the WWE's style of fast-paced wrestlers today. But the likes of Hashimoto has never been a type of wrestler McMahon likes.

 

Also, it's not as if WWE never ever had any stiff wrestlers who worked the same schedule. Benoit, Regal, RVD, 'Taker, etc.

Undertaker, Benoit and Regal all worked different styles with different people. So they were stiff when it was called upon, just like Sashimoto would be, so WWF would alter his ring style. RVD's a good example. He hurt most of the roster, so they made an example out of him.