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#2311 Ross

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:00 PM

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.


I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.

#2312 Kenny McBride

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:32 PM

This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

But then your view ignores the vast social engineering carried out under 18 years of Tory government which helped establish such a fragmented society in the first place. The 60s and 70s weren't some idyllic utopia, but there was at least a sense of solidarity and a belief in self-improvement through education and hard work. That solidarity was eroded by Thatcheristic individualism and the concept of self-improvement was lost when traditional industries were destroyed, removing many job opportunities for people who wereen't high achievers academically.
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#2313 spurs 4 life

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:51 PM

I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.

What's really frustrating for me is when people come out with bollocks like that last paragraph.

#2314 Max Power

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:52 PM

What's really frustrating for me is when people come out with bollocks like that last paragraph.


What's really frustrating for me is when he comes out with 155 pages of bollocks like that.

#2315 Loki

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:53 PM

It doesn't ignore that at all, I didn't even mention the Tories! They are as bad but for different reasons. I don't think anyone is going to argue that we're were in a GOOD place by the end of the 70s, are they? I mean, all that solidarity didn't result in an economic boom, quite the opposite. To put it simplistically, Labour tends to built too unwieldy a bureaucratic state that tries to level society but costs too much, and the Tories dismantle too much of the state, relying too heavily on the vagaries of the individual and "market forces". Both models tend to deliver well in the short term but in the long term create economic or social problems. If only there was a middle way.... ;)



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#2316 Ross

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:55 PM

I also hope people are aware that their Prime Minister and Mayor of London were part of The Bullingdon Club at Oxford - one well known for destruction of property. So really you've got 'mindless thug scum' as the Prime Minister too.

It doesn't ignore that at all, I didn't even mention the Tories! They are as bad but for different reasons.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that we're were in a GOOD place by the end of the 70s, are they? I mean, all that solidarity didn't result in an economic boom, quite the opposite.

To put it simplistically, Labour tends to built too unwieldy a bureaucratic state that tries to level society but costs too much, and the Tories dismantle too much of the state, relying too heavily on the vagaries of the individual and "market forces".

Both models tend to deliver well in the short term but in the long term create economic or social problems. If only there was a middle way.... ;)


New Labour was pretty much an extension of Thatcherism anyway, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

#2317 Smeg_&_The_Heads

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:03 PM

I also hope people are aware that their Prime Minister and Mayor of London were part of The Bullingdon Club at Oxford - one well known for destruction of property. So really you've got 'mindless thug scum' as the Prime Minister too.


Yeah true I think that's even been brought up a few times.

Anyway I don't care if you haven't got a pot to piss in and have had no education and may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer or you are a billionaire and have the best education in the world and are so smart you could call Einstein a dummy if you rioted and looted you are scum.
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#2318 Ross

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:05 PM

Yeah true I think that's even been brought up a few times.

Anyway I don't care if you haven't got a pot to piss in and have had no education and may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer or you are a billionaire and have the best education in the world and are so smart you could call Einstein a dummy if you rioted and looted you are scum.


My point being that Cameron isn't in the best position to condemn criminal damage when he was part of a 'gang' that acted in a similar manner. Albeit whilst wearing tailcoats.

#2319 johnnyboy

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:09 PM

That solidarity was eroded by Thatcheristic individualism and the concept of self-improvement was lost when traditional industries were destroyed, removing many job opportunities for people who wereen't high achievers academically.


Certainly vocational opportunities in education took far too long to catch up with the changes in the economy. I've always thought the broad message of Thatcherism was quite inspiring. "There's no such thing as society" is often trotted out without the wider context of their being an obligation to society through the individual "It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Unfortunately that morphed into become a spiv stock market trader with a gigantic mobile phone :(
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#2320 Smeg_&_The_Heads

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:10 PM

My point being that Cameron isn't in the best position to condemn criminal damage when he was part of a 'gang' that acted in a similar manner. Albeit whilst wearing tailcoats.


And I agree with that point and it does indeed make him a hypocrite as all he has done is come out and say "Do as I say not do as I do"

I also think it's sad that the millionairess daughter and some others will stand a better chance at getting off as either the fine will be nothing to them or they could afford better lawyers.
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#2321 Ross

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:15 PM

I've always thought the broad message of Thatcherism was quite inspiring. "There's no such thing as society" is often trotted out without the wider context of their being an obligation to society through the individual "It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour."


An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.

#2322 spurs 4 life

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:16 PM

An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.


Or life.

#2323 johnnyboy

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:24 PM

An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.


Not in the context that if you don't look after yourself you're not going to be in a situation where you can actively help society. That does not necessarily equate to selfish individualism. Sadly that's what it became but it need not have.

Re The Bullingdon Club, yeah they acted like a bunch of thugs and they certainly should have known better. They did make financial reparations for their actions though, which doesn't excuse the behaviour but it didn't leave anyone out of pocket or homeless to the best of my knowledge.

Edited by johnnyboy, 12 August 2011 - 04:29 PM.

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#2324 Ross

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 05:28 PM

Or life.

We can change it, it isn't set in stone.

#2325 Stinky Dad

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 05:34 PM

Apologies if this has been posted already but some fine Photoshopping going on right here!

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