MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[Noah Southworth]

When did the 'M-1/Vadim is controlling/protecting Fedor' thing start? When did they become such an influence on his career? I mean, it wasn't like they were protecting him in Pride when he was fighting prime Cro Cop who was about as scary a heavyweight as there ever was in MMA. Or prime Big Nog.

 

I think you're right that it was a case of Fedor's hangers on not wanting to give up total control to Zuffa, hence all the co-promotion bollocks. But I'm not sure what the deal was there.

 

I love the last line. Vadim/M-1 took the gamble on pricing themselves out of the UFC, thinking Fedor would just keep winning and they could go through all the money mark promoters, getting paid big bucks to smash less risky opposition. But they didn't bank on Fedor's decline. With hindsight, knowing now what he know about Fedor being on the slide by then, Fedor signing for the UFC in 2009 most likely would've resulted in Brock crushing him or something. But at least they'd have cashed in on the big money. As it worked out Fedor lost anyway for less money than the UFC were reportedly offering (talk was a deal worth $6 million). It backfired big-time. The very thing they were trying to protect Fedor from ended up happening anyway, and then they lost all the leverage and bargaining power they had with the UFC.

 

When it came to PRIDE, there wasn't much to protect Fedor from because they had good heavyweights but only two great heavyweights in Crop Cop and Nogueira.

 

And when it comes to Cro Cop, it's worth remember that Fedor and Cro Cop were supposed to fight in 2003 but Fedor's people pulled him from fight citing a finger injury of all things and then the fight didn't take place for another two years. Putting aside the fact of how the fight ended up going, because nobody would have known how it was going to go, I think it's very telling that Fedor's people not only pulled him from the fight but that the fight didn't happen for another two years, when it was the only major fight left for Fedor in PRIDE and it was either take the fight and roll the dice or avoid it again and make it seem like they were ducking Cro Cop.

 

As for Big Nog, I don't think he was a huge threat to Fedor. Sure, he had great submissions, but Fedor's striking was so much better that as long as he avoided going to the ground and playing Big Nog's game, and Fedor was hard to take down and even harder to keep down, that he really wasn't at great risk of losing to Nogueira.

 

I've always felt that a lot of Fedor's decline was more of the game passing him by than his abilities actually declining. He trained in the same place with the same people and never changed camps or did things any differently in 2010 than he had done in 2000. Which worked great in 2000 when the skill level was where it was at then, but come 2010, the game had changed but Fedor hadn't. Whereas most top heavyweights brought in a variety of top people to train with, Fedor was still training with Red Devil Sport Club. It was like Ken Shamrock when he came back to fighting in 2000. When Ken came back, he trained in the Lion's Den with the fighters he trained, doing the same things he had been doing before he went into pro wrestling. Whilst the guys he was facing,were doing things the modern way, Ken was doing things the old way and it cost him. Whether he could have won with modern training is another question but it didn't help that he was stuck in his old ways, which is exactly what happened with Fedor. He was doing things the way he always had, because they had always worked, but they weren't going to work forever, and nobody in his camp realized it because they were so caught up in protecting Fedor

 

If Fedor had fought Brock in 2009, I would have favored Brock, not only because of his size and strength, and not only because of his training being more modern, but because Fedor, by then,was very easy to scout and you knew exactly what to expect. That, more than anything, is why Fedor lost to Werdum. Fedor was too predictable in strategy and habits and it was easy for a good fighter with a great camp to come up with the ideal gameplan.

[Egg Shen]

wand. any chance of grabbing a copy of that book translation? id never even heard of that.

 

some good chat going on in here

[jimufctna24]

wand. any chance of grabbing a copy of that book translation? id never even heard of that.

I second this 

 

Spill Wand 

[wandshogun09]

Since you asked nicely...

 

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/150335071#fullscreen

 

Not the ideal way to read it but I haven't found it anywhere else. If you click the little zoom function it's easy enough to get used to.

[wandshogun09]

Good points in that post Noah, but;

 

When it came to PRIDE, there wasn't much to protect Fedor from because they had good heavyweights but only two great heavyweights in Crop Cop and Nogueira.

That's true but it was still two more great heavyweights than the UFC had at the time. He was still in the toughest heavyweight division in MMA. So if they were looking to protect him then, surely the UFC would be the better option.

 

Comparing the divisions throughout Fedor's run of 2000-07 (when Pride died);

 

The UFC had...

 

Tim Sylvia

Andrei Arlovski

Randy Couture (sometimes, when he wasn't at 205)

Frank Mir

Gabriel Gonzaga

Pedro Rizzo

Ricco Rodriguez

Jeff Monson

Paul Buentello

Justin Eilers

Gan McGee

Cabbage Correira

Tank Abbott

And Josh Barnett for a little bit

 

Pride had...

 

Fedor Emelianenko

Mirko Cro Cop

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

Josh Barnett

Fabricio Werdum

Sergei Kharitonov

Aleksander Emelianenko

Mark Hunt

Mark Coleman

Kevin Randleman (when he wasn't at 205)

Igor Vovchanchyn

Heath Herring

Gary Goodridge

Tom Erikson

Semmy Schilt

Bob Sapp

Kazuyuki Fujita

Don Frye

Ken Shamrock

Then of course you had your shite like Butterbean, Giant Silva, Sentoryu, Zulu, Takada.

 

Pride was the tougher division by far, in my opinion. I don't see anyone on that UFC list who could've given Fedor a better or more credible test than Cro Cop or Nog. I don't think Couture would've had much for Fedor in any era. We saw what he did to the other two top UFC heavies - Sylvia and Arlovski. The rest would've been destroyed. It's a shame we never got Fedor vs Barnett or Vovchanchyn or Kharitonov in Pride, but still, he faced and dominated his two closest rivals. It's not like there were tougher tests out there at the time that Fedor or his team avoided.

 

And when it comes to Cro Cop, it's worth remember that Fedor and Cro Cop were supposed to fight in 2003 but Fedor's people pulled him from fight citing a finger injury of all things and then the fight didn't take place for another two years. Putting aside the fact of how the fight ended up going, because nobody would have known how it was going to go, I think it's very telling that Fedor's people not only pulled him from the fight but that the fight didn't happen for another two years, when it was the only major fight left for Fedor in PRIDE and it was either take the fight and roll the dice or avoid it again and make it seem like they were ducking Cro Cop.

You might be right on the 2003 fight falling through. But even still, they were both in the 2004 GP. The only reason they never met in that tournament was because Cro Cop got knocked out in the first round by Randleman. Had he beat Randleman as expected, the finals would surely have been some combination of Fedor/Cro Cop/Nog. Fedor vs Cro Cop could very likely have been the final so it's not really a case of them ducking Mirko in this situation, I don't think. You couldn't really put him in a tournament with the likes of Cro Cop, Nog, Sergei etc, and protect him at the same time.

 

As for Big Nog, I don't think he was a huge threat to Fedor. Sure, he had great submissions, but Fedor's striking was so much better that as long as he avoided going to the ground and playing Big Nog's game, and Fedor was hard to take down and even harder to keep down, that he really wasn't at great risk of losing to Nogueira.

True, and we know that now. But at the time no-one would've called the way their first fight went. Even the bold bit, Fedor did the opposite. He spent almost the entire fight in Nog's guard just yanking out of armbars and smashing his face in. We look back on that fight now and it's just Fedor doing his thing. But at the time that must've been mind blowing to watch. Fedor hadn't really done much of note in Pride at that point and wasn't KOing guys on the feet. He was a ground and pounder mostly, with a good submission game. On paper going in, you'd think Fedor would likely get subbed with that gameplan. But he played Nog's game and won.

 

I mean, imagine if Cain does that against Werdum? Takes the path of most resistance and spends the whole fight in Werdum's guard and just wrecks him at his strength? Madness. And I don't think Cain will do that, nor should he, but looking back that was a crazy tactic to use by Fedor and his team. Worked out well, but it was definitely treading the line between ballsy and stupid.

 

I've always felt that a lot of Fedor's decline was more of the game passing him by than his abilities actually declining. He trained in the same place with the same people and never changed camps or did things any differently in 2010 than he had done in 2000. Which worked great in 2000 when the skill level was where it was at then, but come 2010, the game had changed but Fedor hadn't. Whereas most top heavyweights brought in a variety of top people to train with, Fedor was still training with Red Devil Sport Club.

Wasn't he with Russian Top Team then defected to Red Devil though? I remember reading something about RTT being pissed at Fedor and them hoping Sergei would be their 'hired gun' to take him out.

 

If Fedor had fought Brock in 2009, I would have favored Brock, not only because of his size and strength, and not only because of his training being more modern, but because Fedor, by then,was very easy to scout and you knew exactly what to expect. That, more than anything, is why Fedor lost to Werdum. Fedor was too predictable in strategy and habits and it was easy for a good fighter with a great camp to come up with the ideal gameplan.

I agree with that. By 2009 there were a few things going against Fedor. He wasn't getting any younger. He hadn't evolved his game much and fought the same style every fight, the old haymakers and armbars. Plus the heavyweight division was becoming bigger. By 2009 you had the likes of Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem, Bigfoot. Considering Fedor is probably smaller physically than Chris Weidman, the days of him being a successful dominant heavyweight were numbered.

 

I still think he could've done well in the UFC. If they ever booked the Couture fight I still think he'd have ruined Randy. Lesnar, there was always a chance he'd catch him with a big punch or even an armbar, but I'd favour Lesnar I think. Once Cain and JDS came along though, it would've been a wrap for him no matter what he did.

Edited September 2, 2014 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

Fedor's G&P demonstration against Nog remains one of the greatest ever.

[jimufctna24]

Fedor was declining for years, it took a bit of smoke and mirrors for people not to see that. After his legacy defining win over Cro Cop, his performances indicate a declining fighter.

 

Zulu and Choi were gimmick fights. His showing against Mark Hunt was nothing special at the time. Josh Barnett had stormed through Hunt much easier a few months before.

 

Lindland, Arlovski and Rogers all caused Fedor significant damage. Rogers was made to look much better than he was by Fedor, it is forgotten that Rogers not only bloodied Fedor's nose, but also landed some heavy blows on top in the first round. Arlovski was lightening up Fedor quite handily before Fedor caught him. Fedor's one shot knockout power bailed him out against Rogers and Arlovski. It was the old, power is the last thing to go type of affair.

 

I have never seen the Lindland fight, but that was also a bit of a gimmick. The number 1 ranked HW at the time, fighting the number one ranked MW (at least according to MMA Weekly). I did hear that Fedor was cut pretty badly before landing a sub over Lindland. The Tim Sylvia fight is the exception. That was impressive. But, it should be remembered that Randy Couture had put Sylvia on his butt the year before, and Couture is someone I always classified as a "decent boxer". 

 

The result of the Werdum fight could have happened at any point. Play in Werdum's guard and you are gambling, no matter who you are. I know he played in Nog's guard in Pride, but the threat of being subbed was always going to be there against a grappler like Werdum.

 

For me, it was the Big Foot fight where we discovered that Fedor was no longer the premier performer in MMA. Fedor was dominated. As Wand said, his lack of size was now a factor, and as Noah said, the sport had caught up by that stage. Those looping shots could be countered with straight punches as Rogers showed, and he could thrown around by bigger men, who had the skills to smother him. 

 

Fedor probably did lose a step along the way as well. If you watch his 2004 Pride fight with Nog, he is a bit quicker and slicker than he was from 2006-2011

Edited September 2, 2014 by jimufctna24

[Mr Tibbs]

I've been watching the Invicta shows on FP.  I've just started watching 4.  My God, what the fuck is Bas Rutton on.  During the break between rounds he starts singing loudly, over the other commentators while they are trying to analyse the round.  Is he on the rest of the other Invicta shows!

 

Great shows though  Some excellent fights and you can see the evolution of the promotion over the 4 events.  Looing forward to watching the rest and then catching number 8 on Saturday.

[jimufctna24]

I've been watching the Invicta shows on FP.  I've just started watching 4.  My God, what the fuck is Bas Rutton on.  During the break between rounds he starts singing loudly, over the other commentators while they are trying to analyse the round. 

I have no heard Bas on commentary in recent years, but from what I hear, he is a bit like Jerry Lawler

 

A man who is crap these days, but as he was once very good, and is still very likable, he is kept around.

[Egg Shen]

Bas is fucking terrible these days, he either doesn't care about what he's doing or he's just legit off it. When he commentates on the WSOF you can tell he really has no clue about the guys fighting in the cage, he just reads stats off the sherdog fight finder and makes weird noises.

[wandshogun09]

I defended Bas as long as I could, but yeah, he is SHIT at commentating these days

 

You can tell he's just going through the motions these days and picking up a check. Still, when he has an interview or is on Rogan's podcast talking about fights he is actually arsed about, he's still good to listen to. It's one of those things where I think he was just the perfect guy at the perfect time to commentate in Pride. But his day as a top commentator is gone sadly.

 

Still love Bas though. Got to be one of the most likeable personalities in the sport up there with Serra, JDS, Nog etc.

 

Tibbs, if you're watching Invicta and you haven't seen Tecia Torres vs Rose Namajunas yet, you're in for a treat. Probably the best womens MMA fight I've seen yet and the fact it was so good yet both only had two pro fights each gives me high hopes for both. They're both on TUF 20 as well so it's a good time to watch that. Seek out a bit of Joanne Calderwood as well.

[jimufctna24]

Bas and Quadros in their pomp were gold though. I am too overly familiar with Goldy/Rogan to rate them these days. I feel I would be harsh in dismissing Goldy/Rogan, because I really enjoyed them when I got into MMA. Anik can piss off though.

 

Franky Shams I would say is the best commentator ever. Not because he was good, but because of who he is.

 

Mauro was great in Pride, and I actually had him on par with Quandros. But he was dire in Strikeforce when he became a pop culture reference machine. He was sort of the human version of Family Guy.

 

Nice guy though. There was a picture on Facebook that Franky Shams posted where him, Pat and Mauro were all stood together at a Strikeforce show. I commented that Frank had aged the best. To my delight/surprise, Mauro replied by saying "I disagree very much Jim". He took it all on the chin when he was will within his rights to tell me to fuck off (he has only just gone bald at the time, so it was a low blow on my part). Pat has always looked the same throughout the years, he has always looked around 45.

 

Gus Johnson was a cockend though. Made a a right dick of himself on Sherdog radio. Asked for criticism on his commentary, then got very defensive when the hosts told him what they did not like.

Edited September 2, 2014 by jimufctna24

[Noah Southworth]

wandshogun09, on 02 Sept 2014 - 7:02 PM, said:

 

 

Pride was the tougher division by far, in my opinion. I don't see anyone on that UFC list who could've given Fedor a better or more credible test than Cro Cop or Nog. I don't think Couture would've had much for Fedor in any era. We saw what he did to the other two top UFC heavies - Sylvia and Arlovski. The rest would've been destroyed. It's a shame we never got Fedor vs Barnett or Vovchanchyn or Kharitonov in Pride, but still, he faced and dominated his two closest rivals. It's not like there were tougher tests out there at the time that Fedor or his team avoided.

 

 

PRIDE absolutely had the better heavyweight division but they still had very few who were realistically going to give Fedor a challenger. Hell, Randleman dropped Fedor on his head and the guy popped right back up like it was nothing. When it comes to Sylvia, there was a very interesting titbit that came out when the UFC negotiations were going on; Fedor’s people didn’t want the Sylvia fight. They made it clear it was a fight they didn’t want. Naturally, the more…ardent Fedor fans refused to accept that was in any way possible because to them, Fedor was godlike and invincible. Obviously, with the fight eventually happening going the way it did, those same fans insisted this ‘proved’ that the idea of Fedor’s people not wanting the Syliva fight a few years before was false, but it doesn’t prove anything other than Fedor, on that night, beat Syliva

 

Why Fedor’s people wouldn’t want the fight, I don’t know, and it doesn’t make sense on the surface, but if they did make that demand, they must have had, in their minds, a good reason.

 

wandshogun09, on 02 Sept 2014 - 7:02 PM, said:

 

You might be right on the 2003 fight falling through. But even still, they were both in the 2004 GP. The only reason they never met in that tournament was because Cro Cop got knocked out in the first round by Randleman. Had he beat Randleman as expected, the finals would surely have been some combination of Fedor/Cro Cop/Nog. Fedor vs Cro Cop could very likely have been the final so it's not really a case of them ducking Mirko in this situation, I don't think. You couldn't really put him in a tournament with the likes of Cro Cop, Nog, Sergei etc, and protect him at the same time.

 

 

When it comes to the 2004 GP, if one was sceptical when dealing with people who are undeniably shady, one might suggest that Fedor's people were willing to play the odds that an upset or two might occur. as they invariably do in any tournament. If one was sceptical.

 

wandshogun09, on 02 Sept 2014 - 7:02 PM, said:

 

True, and we know that now. But at the time no-one would've called the way their first fight went. Even the bold bit, Fedor did the opposite. He spent almost the entire fight in Nog's guard just yanking out of armbars and smashing his face in. We look back on that fight now and it's just Fedor doing his thing. But at the time that must've been mind blowing to watch. Fedor hadn't really done much of note in Pride at that point and wasn't KOing guys on the feet. He was a ground and pounder mostly, with a good submission game. On paper going in, you'd think Fedor would likely get subbed with that gameplan. But he played Nog's game and won.

 

I mean, imagine if Cain does that against Werdum? Takes the path of most resistance and spends the whole fight in Werdum's guard and just wrecks him at his strength? Madness. And I don't think Cain will do that, nor should he, but looking back that was a crazy tactic to use by Fedor and his team. Worked out well, but it was definitely treading the line between ballsy and stupid.

 

 

 

 

No one would have called the way the first fight went, but it's not like people didn't know Fedor's strengths over Big Nog going into the fight. Fedor's strategy was a surprise, more surprising that it worked, but it doesn't change the fact that had he decided to keep the fight standing, which most people expected he would do because he was the better striker and it made more sense anyway, he would have probably still won.

 

Had it backfired against Big Nog, it's not like Fedor would have been the first fighter to take a risk that ends up backfiring because they've overestimated their abilities, and that's how people would have called it. It's how people called it when he did the same thing against Werdum and it ended up backfiring.

 

 

 

 

 

[wandshogun09]

When it comes to Sylvia, there was a very interesting titbit that came out when the UFC negotiations were going on; Fedor’s people didn’t want the Sylvia fight. They made it clear it was a fight they didn’t want. Naturally, the more…ardent Fedor fans refused to accept that was in any way possible because to them, Fedor was godlike and invincible. Obviously, with the fight eventually happening going the way it did, those same fans insisted this ‘proved’ that the idea of Fedor’s people not wanting the Syliva fight a few years before was false, but it doesn’t prove anything other than Fedor, on that night, beat Syliva

 

Why Fedor’s people wouldn’t want the fight, I don’t know, and it doesn’t make sense on the surface, but if they did make that demand, they must have had, in their minds, a good reason.

I've heard this before. I'm not sure I buy it. And I'm not a Fedor fanboy. I was a fan but I always preferred Nog and Cro Cop. I don't know, something just doesn't smell right about it to me. Why would they be so adamant about not fighting Sylvia in the UFC but then the fight gets booked with no issue in Affliction? I'm not saying it's not possible that Fedor's people didn't want the fight (again, maybe they were just trying to get out of signing with the UFC again), but couldn't it also have been the UFC putting it out there that Fedor was ducking Sylvia? Dana always does that shit when he doesn't get his own way (Overeem-JDS, Shogun-Glover, now most recently this Woodley-Lombard stuff). It seems more likely to me that the UFC were trying to either do that to get Fedor to sign so as not to look like he's ducking, or they were just trying to smear him because they couldn't get him signed, while at the same time building up Sylvia and saying 'look, Fedor wants no part of our champion'.

 

I don't know. We'll never know. Maybe it was how you say. But I just find it hard to believe. It's not like Fedor hadn't fought big guys before. He was always an undersized heavyweight. I don't see what they'd fear from Sylvia.

 

When it comes to the 2004 GP, if one was sceptical when dealing with people who are undeniably shady, one might suggest that Fedor's people were willing to play the odds that an upset or two might occur. as they invariably do in any tournament. If one was sceptical.

Nah it was too risky if they were ducking Cro Cop. To just rely on someone pulling upsets doesn't make any sense if you're so insistent on not wanting risky fights. No-one would've expected Cro Cop to lose to Randleman going in, least of all Fedor and his team. The shite in that tournament like Giant Silva, Sentoryu Miller, Gan McGee were never going to upset anyone good. And then you had an undersized Ninja Rua, Stefan Leko who had no ground game.

 

But then you had Cro Cop coming in off four wins, including a headkick KO of Fedor's own brother. You had Nogueira who looked in the best shape of his career and was hungry to reclaim the #1 spot. Kharitonov was in the best form of his life back then and ran Nog to a tough night's work later in the tournament. Semmy Schilt was in there, who was dangerous despite his lack of ground game because of his size and striking skill. Heath Herring was still looking good then.

 

It was a weird tournament. It was like a 50/50 good to shit ratio in terms of who was in it. But as easy as it is to say now, anyone going in would've probably picked a Fedor vs Cro Cop final. Fedor wasn't to know Cro Cop would go and get laid out cold by Randleman.

 

Unless you're saying Cro Cop losing to Randleman was a fix, which I can't see given how brutal and embarrassing that loss was for Cro Cop.

 

No one would have called the way the first fight went, but it's not like people didn't know Fedor's strengths over Big Nog going into the fight. Fedor's strategy was a surprise, more surprising that it worked, but it doesn't change the fact that had he decided to keep the fight standing, which most people expected he would do because he was the better striker and it made more sense anyway, he would have probably still won.

 

Had it backfired against Big Nog, it's not like Fedor would have been the first fighter to take a risk that ends up backfiring because they've overestimated their abilities, and that's how people would have called it. It's how people called it when he did the same thing against Werdum and it ended up backfiring.

I get what you're saying but I really don't think people saw Fedor as the favourite going into that first Nog fight. And Fedor really hadn't shown much in the way of good standup at that point. He'd had two Pride fights, wins over Herring and Schilt. I can't remember much of the Herring fight but I'm sure he mostly just beat Herring up on the ground. And the Schilt fight was practically all on the ground and pretty fucking boring, as I remember. Then he fought Nog. It wouldn't have been like people would think Fedor had a huge striking advantage going in. In fact it was Nog who showed more technical boxing up to that point, although Fedor showed more power because he swung nothing but haymakers. So at the time it was likely looked at as - Fedor will want to avoid the ground, stay out of Nog's guard and land a bomb standing. I could totally see the majority favouring Nog going into Pride 25. To that point no-one had had an answer for Nog's guard game, Fedor had shown nothing other than reckless striking and ability to control bad-decent grapplers on the ground and Nog might be able to box enough to nullify Fedor's power.

 

Of course, knowing what we know now having seen their 2 1/2 fights, that sounds mad. But in early 2003 Nog was the man. Fedor was just a chubby Russian working his way up. There was no way to tell he was capable of the absolute mauling he inflicted on Nog that first time.

 

Fedor didn't look really great until he beat Nog that first time, IMO. That was his coming out party.

Edited September 4, 2014 by wandshogun09

[Noah Southworth]

If I was to hazard a guess as to why Fedor's people didn't want the Sylvia fight, on the presumption it was a legitimate concern and not just a way to avoid signing with the UFC, I would say it would be because Sylvia's style was to either use his reach and paw opponents to keep them at bay and go for a safe win on points, or to just grab them and hold them against the cage, much like he did to Brandon Vera. It's a concern that makes sense especially because it was a big reason Sylvia was wildly unpopular with the fans; fans knew to expect a dull, dry fight. And if you’re looking to maintain the aura of a fighter as the best in the sport or just looking to get your fighter over, you don’t want a fight that you feel is a lock to be dull and dry because winning it doesn’t get your guy over much if at all, not to mention it doesn’t make him look like a world beater to begin with because he’ll have had trouble with a guy who doesn’t come across as a very good or exciting fighter.

 

It’s just an educated guess but I can see the claim having merit if that was their genuine thought process because it does make sense based on what the feeling was about Sylvia at the time.

 

As for Fedor/Big Nog, I can tell you that going into their first match, Fedor was given a good chance of beating Nog because his striking was considered better, he was considered hard to take down and keep down, and was overall faster on his feet. I can go back and recheck what was talked about going into the fight, but everyone I knew and read at the time went into the fight feeling that Fedor was probably going to win. They didn’t expect him to dominate, but they expected Fedor to win.