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Ross
QUOTE (johnnyboy @ Aug 12 2011, 14:39) *
That may be true but the figures in Tottenham don't show this. ~90% (most over 90 a few in the 80s) coming out at level 1 in KS4 attainment (at least 5 A*-G). One of the worst in terms of Ofsted reports had 94% getting at least and 5 A*-G. The school at the end of my road only gets 93% of at least 5 A*-G. The absolute worst in a 5 mile radius of Tottenham is in Leyton with 84% KS4 Level 1 attainment. Personally, I think that's a poor figure, but still the overwhelming majority of children within 5 miles of Tottenham leave school with at least 5 GCSEs of some description. (The ones that show as 0% are usually independents or schools who do qualifications such as iGCSEs which aren't included in official statistics).

The lowest figure of at least one qualification, again at the same lowly rated school, is 96%. My local comp only manages to better than by 1%.

The 5 A*-C has the biggest discrepancy, but neither are much to write home about. 31% for the same school in Tottenham and 36% for my local comp. I wouldn't blow the trumpet for either of those figures to be honest.


Anything less than a C at GCSE is useless, so we can pretty much dismiss those A*-G figures. A*-C is what we should be looking at, and as you can see, pretty terrible figures as far as that goes.

QUOTE (Loki @ Aug 12 2011, 14:51) *
You're back to conflating the labelling of rioters and arsonists as 'scum' with the labelling of all poor people as 'scum'. Again.

As long as all your arguments hang off this false premise, your entire input into this thread is useless. Again.

Tiresome.


No, I'm talking about the rioters. Labelling them all as one group of 'scum' is pretty fucking tiresome for me as well.
Duke
Stephen Fry made a fair point on his twitter (forgive me if it's been posted, I ain't seen it) when it all kicked off saying that he was on the other side of the world and was just as far away from the rioters as he is when he's in London.
Nostalgia Nonce
QUOTE (johnnyboy @ Aug 12 2011, 12:08) *
If I wanted to get payback on every company that had not responded to an application I'd never have time to do anything else.

I'm available for hire, if you want me to do it for you.

QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 12:59) *
That's useful if you can read. I think you're forgetting the fact that some of these people will have never read a book in their lives and some of them wouldn't be able to even if they tried.

Reading is a skill, it can be practiced. Read shitty fiction, reference books, rude poems, whatever. What's stopping two of these people making a pact to read a "teach yourself" book and then test each other?

My ex's brother used to use the "I can't read" excuse, but he could read the booklet that came with a Playstation game easily enough.
johnnyboy
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 14:57) *
Anything less than a C at GCSE is useless, so we can pretty much dismiss those A*-G figures.


Why dismiss them? Because they show an overall attainment level on par with a school in a more affluent area? The better school in Tottenham (Northumberland Park) actually has 5 A*-C figures better than my local comprehensive at 40%. Given the socio-economic make up of the area we could argue that to achieve that level of attainment the schools in Tottenham are actually better in real terms than schools in other areas.
big mickey
Sad to hear of that poor guy dying, and what with the 3 lads in Birmingham, that's 4 lives lost for what?

Some "good guy" who happened to be carrying a loaded gun?

Fuck off.
spurs 4 life
I don't have one GCSE above a grade C and yet i own (mortgage) a 3 bedroom house in a nice area and have plenty of career options.
Ross
QUOTE (spurs 4 life @ Aug 12 2011, 15:28) *
I don't have one GCSE above a grade C and yet i own (mortgage) a 3 bedroom house in a nice area and have plenty of career options.


Lucky you, and I'm sure you've worked hard for that, but unfortunately that's not going to be the reality for a lot of them, especially during tough economic times where the employment market is more competitive than ever.
spurs 4 life
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 15:35) *
Lucky you, and I'm sure you've worked hard for that, but unfortunately that's not going to be the reality for a lot of them, especially during tough economic times where the employment market is more competitive than ever.


I was more making the point that qualifications aren't the be all and end all.

As i've said to you many a time. I feel there is a difference between a youngster living in London and someone living elsewhere. I was lucky that even though i was a useless school kid i lived in London during my twenties so whilst i did struggle at times i always did find work in the end and i found a place that let me progress.

I'm aware that those sort of opportunities might not exist outside London but within it they most definatly do.
Loki
This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.
spurs 4 life
QUOTE (Loki @ Aug 12 2011, 15:45) *
This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.


Totally agree with this.
Ross
QUOTE (Loki @ Aug 12 2011, 15:45) *
This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.


I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.
Kenny McBride
QUOTE (Loki @ Aug 12 2011, 15:45) *
This is one of the problems with socialism for me, speaking broadly - it can't distinguish between individuals, and so has to lump them together for the purposes of distributing "fairness". Because spurs 4 life doesn't fit into Whiskey's model of the poorly educated, it's irrelevant to his thesis. The fact that people from identical backgrounds are capable of achieving such different results is aggravating to those who'd like to do broad social re-engineering, as it kind of pisses on simplistic views like "oh, it's a lack of good education that causes poverty, therefore better education=less poverty".

That's not to say that the thesis doesn't have merit - there's undoubtedly a link between education and poverty, but it's not a simple analogue.

But then your view ignores the vast social engineering carried out under 18 years of Tory government which helped establish such a fragmented society in the first place. The 60s and 70s weren't some idyllic utopia, but there was at least a sense of solidarity and a belief in self-improvement through education and hard work. That solidarity was eroded by Thatcheristic individualism and the concept of self-improvement was lost when traditional industries were destroyed, removing many job opportunities for people who wereen't high achievers academically.
spurs 4 life
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 16:00) *
I've never suggested one size fits all approach anyway. Nothing is a given, but it's all about chance. I've never said you can't achieve if you come from a poor background, just that your chances are a lot lower.

What is really frustrating for me is that people who have come from a poor background and have broken away from it seem to forget that and instead of trying to help people from that background just say 'well if I can do it, anyone can', when blatantly that is not the case.

What's really frustrating for me is when people come out with bollocks like that last paragraph.
Max Power
QUOTE (spurs 4 life @ Aug 12 2011, 16:51) *
What's really frustrating for me is when people come out with bollocks like that last paragraph.


What's really frustrating for me is when he comes out with 155 pages of bollocks like that.
Loki
It doesn't ignore that at all, I didn't even mention the Tories! They are as bad but for different reasons.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that we're were in a GOOD place by the end of the 70s, are they? I mean, all that solidarity didn't result in an economic boom, quite the opposite.

To put it simplistically, Labour tends to built too unwieldy a bureaucratic state that tries to level society but costs too much, and the Tories dismantle too much of the state, relying too heavily on the vagaries of the individual and "market forces".

Both models tend to deliver well in the short term but in the long term create economic or social problems. If only there was a middle way.... wink.gif
Ross
I also hope people are aware that their Prime Minister and Mayor of London were part of The Bullingdon Club at Oxford - one well known for destruction of property. So really you've got 'mindless thug scum' as the Prime Minister too.

QUOTE (Loki @ Aug 12 2011, 16:53) *
It doesn't ignore that at all, I didn't even mention the Tories! They are as bad but for different reasons.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that we're were in a GOOD place by the end of the 70s, are they? I mean, all that solidarity didn't result in an economic boom, quite the opposite.

To put it simplistically, Labour tends to built too unwieldy a bureaucratic state that tries to level society but costs too much, and the Tories dismantle too much of the state, relying too heavily on the vagaries of the individual and "market forces".

Both models tend to deliver well in the short term but in the long term create economic or social problems. If only there was a middle way.... wink.gif


New Labour was pretty much an extension of Thatcherism anyway, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Smeg_&_The_Heads
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 16:55) *
I also hope people are aware that their Prime Minister and Mayor of London were part of The Bullingdon Club at Oxford - one well known for destruction of property. So really you've got 'mindless thug scum' as the Prime Minister too.


Yeah true I think that's even been brought up a few times.

Anyway I don't care if you haven't got a pot to piss in and have had no education and may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer or you are a billionaire and have the best education in the world and are so smart you could call Einstein a dummy if you rioted and looted you are scum.
Ross
QUOTE (Smeg_&_The_Heads @ Aug 12 2011, 17:03) *
Yeah true I think that's even been brought up a few times.

Anyway I don't care if you haven't got a pot to piss in and have had no education and may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer or you are a billionaire and have the best education in the world and are so smart you could call Einstein a dummy if you rioted and looted you are scum.


My point being that Cameron isn't in the best position to condemn criminal damage when he was part of a 'gang' that acted in a similar manner. Albeit whilst wearing tailcoats.
johnnyboy
QUOTE (Kenny McBride @ Aug 12 2011, 16:32) *
That solidarity was eroded by Thatcheristic individualism and the concept of self-improvement was lost when traditional industries were destroyed, removing many job opportunities for people who wereen't high achievers academically.


Certainly vocational opportunities in education took far too long to catch up with the changes in the economy. I've always thought the broad message of Thatcherism was quite inspiring. "There's no such thing as society" is often trotted out without the wider context of their being an obligation to society through the individual "It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour." Unfortunately that morphed into become a spiv stock market trader with a gigantic mobile phone sad.gif
Smeg_&_The_Heads
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 17:05) *
My point being that Cameron isn't in the best position to condemn criminal damage when he was part of a 'gang' that acted in a similar manner. Albeit whilst wearing tailcoats.


And I agree with that point and it does indeed make him a hypocrite as all he has done is come out and say "Do as I say not do as I do"

I also think it's sad that the millionairess daughter and some others will stand a better chance at getting off as either the fine will be nothing to them or they could afford better lawyers.
Ross
QUOTE (johnnyboy @ Aug 12 2011, 17:09) *
I've always thought the broad message of Thatcherism was quite inspiring. "There's no such thing as society" is often trotted out without the wider context of their being an obligation to society through the individual "It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour."


An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.
spurs 4 life
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 17:15) *
An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.


Or life.
johnnyboy
QUOTE (Whiskey1 @ Aug 12 2011, 17:15) *
An inspiration to act in a way where you always put yourself first, before anyone else. How inspiring. Or selfish individualism.


Not in the context that if you don't look after yourself you're not going to be in a situation where you can actively help society. That does not necessarily equate to selfish individualism. Sadly that's what it became but it need not have.

Re The Bullingdon Club, yeah they acted like a bunch of thugs and they certainly should have known better. They did make financial reparations for their actions though, which doesn't excuse the behaviour but it didn't leave anyone out of pocket or homeless to the best of my knowledge.
Ross
QUOTE (spurs 4 life @ Aug 12 2011, 17:16) *
Or life.

We can change it, it isn't set in stone.
Stinky Dad
Apologies if this has been posted already but some fine Photoshopping going on right here!

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/
Psygnosis
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterobo...-as-the-bottom/

Since when was the Telegraph a left wing newspaper?!
The King Of Swing
QUOTE (Psygnosis @ Aug 12 2011, 18:57) *
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterobo...-as-the-bottom/

Since when was the Telegraph a left wing newspaper?!


martyngnr
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tays...entral-14512402

QUOTE
Meanwhile, a 19-year-old man has been arrested in connection with comments made on a social networking site alleged to have incited people to riot in Kirkcaldy.


Kirkcaldy ffs! laugh.gif
I won't make the lazy joke about the riot causing thousands of pounds worth of improvements.
Psygnosis
David Starkey blames 'the black man' and black culture for the riots on Newsnight, also says he doesn't like white people 'turning to black culture'.
The King Of Swing
Suprised it took this long for David Starkey to make a cunt of himself.

I fucking hate the wretch of a man.
Psygnosis
By the reaction on Twitter - I believe even for Starkey - this maybe his last appearance on the BBC.
Vice
Wow. Jaw-dropping amount of racism from David Starkey on Newsnight.

QUOTE
this maybe his last appearance on the BBC.

I hope not. Vile people like him need to have their views refuted and to be put in their place for all to see.
Psygnosis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

3:32 - astounding.
METAL ON METAL
QUOTE (Psygnosis @ Aug 13 2011, 1:35) *


Bloody hell! Thats bad even by his standards.
Van Dammer
Havnt been able to listen to it yet but is it really 'racist' per se? Is referring to a black culture actually racist? As I said I've not heard it so there may be more to it.
johnnyboy
QUOTE (Van Dammer @ Aug 13 2011, 9:05) *
Havnt been able to listen to it yet but is it really 'racist' per se? Is referring to a black culture actually racist?


It certainly is in the way Starkey was doing it.
Glen Quagmire
I seriously hope Starkey knows that Ali G wasn't a real person...
ajpiles
BNP/EDL raid the comments section of an article asking if Starkey was being racist.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoun...ght-last-night/

"When a black person says he wants our 'respect' (which he hasn't earned anyhow) - he really means he wants us to FEAR him."

"Starkey should be our new immigration minster"

"Killing blacks is obviously a privilege only meant for blacks.

I'd call that racist. But I wish they would up the kill rate."

Astro Hollywood
I have to say, the pan across at about 2 minutes when you first realise there's a black person been sat next to him the whole time is hilarious.
hitman89762000
QUOTE (Psygnosis @ Aug 12 2011, 23:24) *
By the reaction on Twitter - I believe even for Starkey - this maybe his last appearance on the BBC.


The bbc give kelvin mackenzie a job so i wouldn't be expecting them to sack starkey either.
Smeg_&_The_Heads
Where I live someone told me they saw some parents dropping their kids off and telling them to pull their hoods up to get ready to go rioting.

I don't know if that was true or not but in London ect it wouldn't surprise me if some parents did send their kids out to riot and loot and maybe even joined them.
The King Of Swing
That sounds like tabloid level bollocks to me to be honest.
Kiffy
QUOTE (The King Of Swing @ Aug 13 2011, 15:07) *
That sounds like tabloid level bollocks to me to be honest.


Well on the basis there's footage of families taking part in the looting I'd say it's reasonably plausable that there are one or two examples of that or something similar. The tabloid bit comes when a few examples gets repeated as "And the parents were encouraging them," in relation to all the rioters.
The King Of Swing
Fair point.

Oh and now we even have an Olympic ambassador in court for rioting and looting fucking hell.
Nostalgia Nonce
Yeah, but her Mum that reported her to the police, not encouraged her.
big mickey
Starkey fucked right up there, should have said "Gangsta Culture" or suchlike.
The King Of Swing
So your saying he should have hidden his racism behind something else?

How very EDL.
big mickey
QUOTE (The King Of Swing @ Aug 13 2011, 19:49) *
So your saying he should have hidden his racism behind something else?

How very EDL.


No he should have called it what it is, gangsta culture? Chav culture? either way look at a lot of these kids on the streets, they have no respect and seem to have embraced a culture of where being bad, is cool.
big mickey
Watching the live debate on 4, nothing new here, it's the police's fault, the young people aren't to blame, it's basically everyone else's fault. Blah blah.
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