I had an interesting conversation with a guy down the police station over the weekend about the subject of religion, and if it can be considered relevant in modern day Britain.

I personally don't think that any of the "mainstream" religions are really worth much in this day & age, but a lot of people still put some stock in them.

Is anyone here particularly religious? What role does it play in your life in 2009?

I'm Catholic and go to mass every Sunday. I even (try to) play guitar in a wee group there. I also work for the Church.

For me, while I still sometimes have my doubts about some things, my faith has actually grown stronger as I've got older. When I was younger, particularly at university, I found my faith constantly under attack from hostile academics, friends and acquaintances and from society as a whole. As I've got older, I've come to realise that those people were either wilfully avoiding the reality of what the Church is or had been grossly led astray themselves. They needed my prayers, not my anger and resentment, and certainly not for me to be discouraged by them and walk away from the Church, as I did for a short time. More recently, I've come to see just how deep the teaching of the Church is and how much that faith has contributed to the world for two thousand years. Of course, people will always try to pick holes in it and attack it, but again, that's often because they don't really understand what they're talking about. If you want to criticise the Church, feel free. Just try to be factually accurate when you do.

I think faith can and should play a much larger role in modern society. The Catholic Church has an absolutely comprehensive set of teachings on faith and morals, including a vast amount of leadership of social justice. Some of the ideas the Church has been teaching in the social sphere pre-date similar secular thinking by decades, if not centuries. If we all moved closer to the teachings of the Church, the world would be a much happier, safer and more peaceful place.

You going off your head, brah?

No offence like.

Fair question, I think.

Those are the only 2 options, huh, Kenny?

I don't think I've ever disagreed with something more than that, but everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Bit harsh, brah.

Part of me thinks the Kenny might partially be trolling the troll although I have no doubt he's very serious about his religion, that post seems a bit preachy.

Anyway, religion does a lot of good and a lot of bad. If people could actually stick to the word of their bible, I have no doubt the world might be a better place but that'll never happen as people are pretty cunty by nature.

I've never had much of a religious influence in my life and the few times someone has tried to get me interested in it, I've found it to be very shortsighted and blinkered. As such, I've never had much faith in religion, regardless of what my faith in a god might be.

The thing that all religious people say religion does for them is easily acheivable without religion as that strength is in all of us. It seems some of us just need that belief to get them through the day.

I've never 'practiced' any sort of religion.

It just feels to me like all these people don't have their own moral guidelines to live by or have had these guidelines forced on them clinging to a set made up by someone else, some natrually gravitate to those who seem to act like they know what the deal is with the world. The Bible and Koran are the 'self help' books of their day, very positive and I think whoever wrote them had good intentions, sadly people just seem to translate them into whatever they need at the time and it's easy to twist the words within to suit whatever nefarious purposes someone may have.

Want to put some hate on Gay people? Other religions? There's easy verses that prove you're right. Some people will swallow anything that 'charismatic' people tell them. People who want more power and can translate things to how they want while still claiming to be people of peace.

Is there a God? I don't think there's some being up there making all these little decisions for us that we goto when we die to be judged. I am, as ever, willing to be proven wrong but it will take more than someone shouting in my face about how right their religion is becuase of a book I don't believe in or some nutcase screaming I'm going to hell to make themselves feel better.

Do I think we just 'end' when we die? We're concious right now, none of us can contemplate having that taken away from us, I can't, you probably can't either, some try to explain it away by making up a 'higher' conciousness or a heaven/hell like thing but who knows whats on the other side until we get there? There is no credible evidence to support any of the theories cooked up by any religion. Do we just end? Who knows? Certainly I don't think someone who put together a book a couple of thousand years ago does.

People are always looking for answers, some find them and if that makes them happy then good on them, I think anyone should be allowed to believe in what they want as long as they aren't harming or belitteling others. And that's where my problems with the Catholic and Islamic ideals come in, they are all about 'harm those who don't believe' it's not as open in this country but it's rampant in other places in the world and I just don't accept that in these days that is the right way to see things.

'religion' needs to change to come into the current day. But I don't know if that can happen.

Couldn't the Catholic churchs teachings on the use of contraception be described as slightly iffy though?

Didn't God OK lots of grisly rapes, murders and more rapes though, for little reason?

I'm the exact opposite of Kenny, what faith I had completely dissipated as I've become older and went to university, not because my faith was ever attacked, but because my opinions matured as I met people with different backgrounds and beliefs than I originally had. I've come to realize that I don't need to believe in God or go to Church to have morals and be a good person. I think the teachings on no sex before marriage and contraception is really flawed in this day and age. I have problems with seeing my cousin married off before they have any life experience, just so they won't break that cardinal sin. I have problems with seeing another cousin being sent to Coventry because she had sex before marriage in a long term committed relationship. To be fair, that part of my family aren't Catholics, but Jehovah's Witnesses, though I think my point still stands.

Very well said DJ Stevie C

Elegia - yes, it may come off as slightly preachy, but that's the way I feel. I don't generally shout about my faith unless it's directly questioned. This thread was about whether any of us still saw a place for religion in the world of today and I absolutely do. I stated my reasons. I figured that would be OK.

Baz - No, I'm not going off my head, brah. Lots of people argue that those who display the greatest homophobia are concealing their own homosexuality. I feel like the same thing is true of the kind of people I'm talking about - they attack the Church so vehemently because somewhere deep inside, they're trying to insulate themselves from the truth of it. I'm not saying that's true of everyone, just of the kind of people who wilfully (or ignorantly) misrepresent the Church when they're supposed to be in positions of authority, imparting unbiased information. I think it's maybe tough to understand what I'm getting at unless you've spent a while in a university English department. And yes, I really do believe those people need prayer. Well, that and a very thorough explanation of where they're factually wrong.

Loki - for those people, yes. If someone knows what the Church actually teaches and disagrees with it, that's up to them. For the kind of people I was just talking about, I can't see any other explanation.

Dart - do you actually know what you're disagreeing with?

hardcore_harry - that depends on what you believe. The Church's teaching on life itself is incredibly deep, particularly in the writings of Pope John Paul II. It's all too easy to write it off as "Kafflicks hate sex and hate women." If you actually understand the totality of the teaching, it's the answer to far more than just condoms or abortion. It's about understanding and valuing life in its totality, from conception to death.

Oldy - I assume you're talking about a variety of Old Testament stories. Those stories need to be understood in their proper context. Christ came to establish a new order which emphasises forgiveness and peace.

I'm not scared of religion at all. I have a Priest as a family member. He works in Coatbridge. We even went to his ordination in Edinburgh a few years back.

I definately respect it though.

I think Religion is a massive farce in this day and age, why our country follows such unproven mythical believes baffles me. If you want to have a set of morals and guidelines to follow then thats fair enough, but wrapping them up in a fairytale of God and Jesus makes me wonder why people are so blind to see theres nothing out there.

From my personal standpoint I dont believe there is a God, that religion is a tool that was used to try and control the uneducated masses many years ago and now its gotten too silly in the age where we are all smart enough to see through it.

People talk about going to heaven and hell and all this, if this was true and theres life after this where was the life before this? How are we to know this is the first stage of life and not the 22nd? I live my life how I want to live it and yes I try to be a good person and not hurt anyone. I'm going to live this life the way I want to, doing what I want to do and if theres something after this then fine but I'm not going to live this life following like a blind sheep in the hope I get another life. If there is a God and he decides I'm not a good enough person to get into Heaven or whatever its called then I've got two words for him basically. Fuck You

I'm a spiritualist you could say. I don't conform to any religion, but I do believe there are things we don't know about, and too much coincidence and too much falling into place to be convinced wholly by science.

I am reading history for my degree, and a lot of things in the past connect strangely to every present. It really gives you the bigger picture, and all the problems in the world today have happened many times before to be learned from. The shiver that goes down your back when you hear an amazing piece of music, the emotions you feel when watching a sad film, the exhiliration and happiness from a simple text message or a call...life is dominated for me by emotions rather than logic, and I think thats what makes me spiritual.

Or maybe I'm just a romantic.

Yes that's right, thanks for replying. What I don't quite get though is who decides a stories' "proper" context. So in theory you can take some parts word for word, and just discard other parts at will? As for establishing a new order and emphasising peace - hasn't really worked, has it?

Oh No Religion.. Run......


To be fair, known many people of many faiths in my time. it seems those who follow their religion closely rather than being associated with it seem to be happier, somewhat more accepting, easy going and the jammiest bastards going. They also seem to be content. And for the large part steer away from the stereotypical messages bandied about by the religion at large inc not accepting gays etc etc. I guess its spiritual fulfillment

This is all apart from the Jehovah's.. There was a security guard/ recruiter at one of me old jobs. He would not shut up about the damn thing, reincarnation, the works, and kept being really nasty to other faiths other deities and beleivers... He got called on it several times, and had no answer whatsoever, except to give you a pamphlet or book to read so that'you would' understand.

The general concensus was, that as he was ex army, and he'd seen action in the 1st gulf war, the stress and anguish had turned him to religion on civvy street..as a way of dealing with the PTSD etc It was clear though that he was still an asshole.

Me, Im not religious in the slightest. If I were to believe, given the amount of shite that has occured in the last 12 years. I would wager that my diety of choice was infact tekking the piss.

Yes.

A couple of years back, my Girlfriend worked on a project in Africa called How 2B AIDS Aware for a company called TABEISA. It was a book and CD-ROM which was used in African schools to promote the use of condoms, safe sex and awareness about HIV and AIDS. UNESCO called it "A very useful tool in the fight against HIV and AIDS. (Here is a link if anyone is interested.) Some of the people she worked with on this project had been working in Africa for many years, my girlfriend was only out there for a matter of weeks but saw first hand the horror and deprivation in some townships.

When The Pope came out with his comments a few months back about how condoms were actually contributing to the spread of AIDS via promiscuity, those people she worked with, as well as the African School teachers, government health workers and UN workers all said he had just set back their work by 10 years. One went further by saying John Paul II was directly responsible for the death of millions due to his stance on contraception. In the interest of balance, this wasn't so much the case in South Africa where Thabo Mbeki and his belief that HIV isn't the only cause of AIDS didn't help.

I was raised as a Catholic, indeed most of my family still are catholic. Much like kjh, once I stepped out of "The Catholic Bubble" of my childhood, (Catholic schools, friends who were all catholic, the expectations of marriage, your kids to go to catholic schools, women being subservient to men, homosexuals to be disliked etc) and moved away, I realised what a terribly controlling and anachronistic system it was. I have no problem with religious people at all, if religion helps them everyday then great. I don't need that in my life but just like most religiously minded people I'd not force my beliefs (or lack of) on others as I know it's not for everyone.

As for the title of the topic? I guess as long as we have a head of state who is defender of the faith, I guess it'll be relevant.

I don't remember Jesus saying homosexuality was bad, that's an interpretation of the Old Testament. So how come that bit of the OT is still valid, but the bit about having many wives and shit isn't?


And here's one of the fundamental problems with religion, the Catholic Church in particular. Far from being a set of principles laid down by a God, it's a set of values laid down by years of political and theological debate, which is THEN sold to the masses as the Word of God.

Who decides which books of the Bible are canonical? The Church. Who decides the correct interpretation? The Church. Who chooses which bits are relevant and which aren't? The Church.

I for one can look at history and see a LOT of examples of Popes making some pretty terrible decisions, and causing a huge amount of bloodshed and misery. This makes me suspicious of so-called Papal infallibility, and so by extension I should question their interpretation of their faith as a whole.

From there it's a quick dash through evolutionary principal and 500 years of scientific enlightenment and you quickly arrive at the conclusion that it's all bullshit.

IMO.

Just out of curiosity, what were you doing down the police station at the weekend, harry?

I was raised a Catholic, and though I go to church rarely these days, I still consider myself a Catholic. Religion is still relevant in that, as long as you apply common sense to what was written thousands of years ago and try to tailor the teachings to contemporary times (it's not just religion that had iffy attitudes to homosexuals and women centuries ago, and it's not just religious people who have iffy attitudes towards them today), it's still fundamentally a set of principals for being a considerate, loving and generous human being.

I think the innate belief, or at least uncertainty, that there may be a higher being is what stops a lot of us from just following our base impulses all the time. If there's a person I hate, I feel they contribute nothing worthwhile to the human race, and I'm sure I could get away without punishment from the law, why wouldn't I just kill them? In my mind it's because I believe there's something more powerful than us in the universe, and what we understand as 'conscience' (i.e what separates us from animals in terms of allowing factors irrespective of personal welfare to stop us from doing something) is something to do with the effect of thousands of years of religious teaching. In that way, religion is still relevant in my opinion.

Done over a hooker.

Enjoying a sunny day in Blackpool?

The problem is with those who are non believers they just don't get it, you have to be a Christian to fully appreciate what being a Christian is. Many people who are Christians say God has spoken to them or through them, this is the bit I don't get. If it happened to me then by 'eck I'd be converted

When I was about 18 these Latter Day Saint lads knocked on my door, I let them in gave them a drink and they gave me the book of Mormon, asked me to read a prayer/passage to myself which implied God would answer me, guess what, he never did.
If prayer could heel me of my health condition then I'd be converted. You have to experience something for it to be a real thing.

What I would say is all the religions are relevent, they have a message to learn from. I'm pretty much open minded about it all but at the same time don't agree with everything. Going to church does make people positive and you mix with good people. Religion is relevent the problem is when religion is used for wrong purposes as it has been throughout history and still is with Islam in Iran at present, George W Bush saying God spoke through him, burning of witches in the past, Northern Ireland conflict etc

Personally I believe the bible is corrupt and what was included was political agreement. Originally the Romans persecuted Christians then decided to adopt the religion once they controlled it.

Even if the bible is corrupt for want of a better word Christianity is still a force for good as the majority of Christian people are good, caring people. Plus there is still a lot of good things to learn from the bible. It is important to respect other beliefs it is a personal thing whatever your opinions of the religion.

We also call people who hear voices in their head mentally disturbed and lock them up.

Saying "you can't know what it's like to be a christian unless you are one" is a bit of a redundant argument, I can't know what it's like to be anything other than what I am, I'm sure the same is said about Scientology... or bee keepers. I've no idea what that's like. I haven't shut out religions, I've been to churches, I've been to mosques while friends have been praying (and not allowed in to parts of the mosque as I was a heathen) and I've done plenty of reading into the subject, I know as much as an average educated non believer and I've come to my own conclusions, philisophically the relgion I am closest too is Buddhism but I'm not a Buddhist. If there is a God I'll meet him in my own way not in someone elses way.



Mormons did the same to me when I was about 10. They kind of forced their way in had a prayer meeting with me, left a book, and then said they would return a week later, had to get my dad to fend them off they were so aggressive... Trying to force your religion on a 10 year old is a bit of a cuntish thing to do.

I realise I shouldn't have been alone at home at 10 years old, you can speak to my dad about that if you can find the cunt.



If God/Jesus do exist I truly hope that one day Jesus will come down and put right all these people that are doing wrong in his name. Of course I think if Jesus did come back today he wouldn't last 30 seconds if the Romans could crucify him he's probably locked away in some nuthouse somewhere.

Christians do a lot of good work and there are a lot of good people invovled with it. And the same could be said for most religions, it doesn't mean no one else could be doing that work, the thing that worries me about Christian aid and things like that is that their help may come with a 'now be a good christian' mandate I expect not here but in africa? So sometimes I worry the good work may be tainted by the silly things. As I said before I don't think the bible is corrupt but it's meaning has been corrupted by those wanting to bend it's passages for their own gain.

How can we, as mere humans, fully understand the Word of God? We start from the writings of St. Paul and the Apostles, through the other Church Fathers and on through the unbroken Apostolic Succession to today. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide the theologians of the Church. We still don't have a full understanding, but our understanding develops over time. Some ideas are considered that are later discarded when they don't stand the test of time. Others are retained. That is why the teaching Magisterium of the Church has always been considered so important.



You are making the classic error of conflating Papal Infallibility with Papal impeccability. Papal Infallibility is merely an extension of the Magisterium of the Church and, for the record, has been invoked on precisely two occasions. One of those was even before the dogma of Papal Infallibility had been promulgated.



Not really. IMO.

People who use religion as a way of hope have a bit of sense, but religion as a way of life is sad.

Does he like, speak with a lisp or thick Brummie accent or something?

Care to give some examples of ideas that were considered, but later discarded and why, Kenny. Despite my scepticism, I'm interested in hearing more about this. It will aid my religious understanding anyway.

I'm not religous myself, never have been never will be. However religion scares me loads. People all have their interpretations of who/what God is and this leads to conflict as people don't seem to be able to understand other people have different views to them. Look at Muslims, some of them get brainwashed into believing killing themselves and loads of innocent people will get them to heaven. Its the same with Christians in history. They sent Knights out in to the Holy Lands to spread the word of God, anyone who stood up to them or had a different view (science) were brutally killed. SO my opinion is that religion will always cause conflict because in some people it completly clouds thier judgement and stops them from listening to other peoples interpretation of religion.

I believe you're confused.

Papal Infallibility is the belief that the Pope is "preserved from the possibility of error" when making declarations on dogmatic teaching. Although not often invoked, it underpins the Pope's doctrinal authority. I'm saying the obvious evil that the Pope has caused over the centuries makes me suspicious of his doctrinal infallibility.

Papal impeccability is the notion that the Pope is without sin. A different thing entirely. As I'm sure you know.

The thing that always gets me about this argument, and you can have it with Scientologists, Catholics, any religous fundamentalists basically, is this:


The believer feels incredibly smug because he feels he has something the atheist does not. He can't really understand both not wanting that feeling, or indeed not feeling the lack of that feeling. With no proof to use as argument, the believer ends up falling back on condescension, which is dangerous as his entire argument is based on "aaah" and is thus paper thin.


I am perfectly happy for people to practice their religions and believe whatever they want. But thinking they're superior to everyone else is what leads to wars.

I'd say it is relevant in that we have honour killings, suicide bombings, sadistic "exorcisms", denial of medical care on religious grounds, fraudulent faith healing, decades long cover ups of child rape and the like. And don't get me started on Scientology... On the other hand, you have many acts of kindness and basic humanity which are no doubt rooted in religious belief. Religion is relevant in as much as it encourages or facilitates people's actions.

I'm constantly having discussions with some of my friends who are believers. I think there's a fundamental difference in our mindsets which means we can't have an effective dialogue.

For example, I'm often asked what comfort I get from atheism. I respond that I'm not looking for comfort, I'm just forming an opinion based on consideration of the evidence available to me, that I don't need some sort of psychological security blanket to shield me from the realities of life. I'd much rather form my own, admittedly fallible opinions about existence than take them from a book, priest or organisation. The most common response is a kind of distrustful sideways look and an air of complete incomprehension.

Frequently I find that the most outspoken believers aren't particularly well informed about their own faith. For example, I was once assured by a believer that "everything you need to know about life can be learned from the Bible."

When I asked if he condoned the execution of rape victims, he gave me a similar distrustful, sideways look. Guess he didn't know his Deuteronomy...

I really do wish I did 'find religion' Alot of the people whom I know who have strong faith tend to have a much brighter outlook on life, then again that is only the people I've met

he sewed his eyes shut,
because he is afraid to see,
he tries to tell me,
what I put inside of me,
he's got the answers,
to ease my curiosity,
he dreamed a God up,
and called it Christianity.

God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there.

he flexed his muscles,
to keep his flock of sheep in line,
he made a virus,
that would kill off all the swine,
his perfect kingdom,
of killing, suffering and pain.
demands devotion,
atrocities done in his name.

God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
your God is dead,
and no one cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there.

God is dead,
and no on cares,
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
your God is dead,
and no one cares,
(drowning in his own hypocrisy)
if there is a hell,
I'll see you there,
(burning with your God in humility)

Has anybody actually read the Bible, religious or not? It's one of the most morally reprehensible books ever written. Whether you believe it to be the actual word of God or symbolic and metaphoric, it's a fucking nasty book. It has no relevance to modern society.

And some of the most heinous acts in this world have been done in the name of faith and religion, any good it does is far outweighed by the horrific things that are done in its name.

My favourate quote regarding religion:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

- Steven Weinberg

Depends on several things. Your definition of "good" and "evil" for starters.

I see "good" and "evil" as being societal standards which radically change in different times, different places and under different circumstances. If you believe that "good" and "evil" have hard and fast definitions, aren't you making as much as a leap of faith as any believer? Do they exist in the sense of Platonic forms? I see that as a pretty clear dichotomy, but if anyone has another way of looking at the issue I'd be interested to hear it.

A Utilitarian might say that "good" is whatever creates the greatest benefit for the greatest number, but I'd argue that that's simply another way of defining a societal standard, and not one that the majority in any society would subscribe to.

So in my opinion, you don't have "good" or "evil" people - you have people performing actions based on their character, beliefs, experience, societal expectations and a huge collection of other factors. What you do have is a person performing actions which are considered as "good" or "evil" by others, individually and collectively. Now, as to whether religion can cause a person considered "good" to commit actions considered "evil":

It's entirely possible that someone could commit acts considered to be perfectly acceptable in their immediate society which, in another place and time, would be considered abhorrent. Do we need religion for this to occur? Obviously not! Just look at the atrocities committed in the name of National Socialism, Stalinism, Maoism or any number of non-religious or even avowedly secular ideologies!

So although I'm hardly a supporter of the concept of faith, I really have to disagree.

I come from a very religious family, both of my parents were 'confirmed' in their youth and my younger sister who teaches sunday school was confirmed just a few years back is an active part of the church. Only when i was young i never bought into it, despite having it thrust upon me as a child. As i grew older, i believed in it even less and grew to resent it.

My first point is this: Now that i have grown old enough to form my own informed opinions and theories i believe religion is a great thing for some people. For those who have faith i can completely respect that, and in some ways admire their ability to believe in something and trust it so much that it makes them want to be better people. But some people use it as an excuse to do horrendous atrocities, or abuse it to gain from it financially, or take it whichever way they like to opress other social groups. In short the most dangerous part of religion are the people that follow it.

I on the other hand still maintain my stance against religion because of my experiences at university (specifically after exploring the theories of marxism and ideology) which have only made my standpoint against organised religion more resolute.

to answer the initial question though religion is extremely relevent in todays society wars are raging over religion as we speak. but it causes more debate than any other subject i can possibly think of and that can be a good thing

also there is a quote from the film straw dogs which actually put religion into an interesting perspective for me when i was in my teens.
"no kingdom on earth has claimed more lives than that of the kingdom of god"


edited due to horrendous grammar (yes i know its still bad)

The bible disagrees with you there.

Matthew Chapter 5:17-19 Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

But, I guess like any good Christian, you can just pick and choose which parts of the bible you like and ignore the rest.

You going off your head too?

Personally I find the idea of blind faith disturbing. I like to be convinced of things, I like to have proof. I believe the way Dawkins states it is that he does not know if a God exists, but given the facts as he understands them he finds the probability that God does exist to be so small that he's happy to be considered an atheist. If it was proven, he would willingy and gladly admit he was wrong. That seems fair to me! As far as organised religion goes I have no problem with it in principle and equally no use for it personally, but I do think an awful lot of evil is done in the name of such institutions, and I don't think any religion deserves to be authorised/endorsed by the state...

And this is the problem I have with religion. Only when all the bad stuff is removed from its teachings can it be said to be good. I'm almost certain anybody who says The Bible is what our morals and lives should be based on either has no idea of it's full content, or ignores all the bad stuff and only looks at the good. Therefore, if you are being selective about what is morally right in the book, it stands to reason that you have your own innate morale sense to base your decision on before you even read the book. So why bother with the book?

Stop making really shit posts bAz.

how does god feel about golden showers?



so you believe in following the bible despite acknowledging you can't fully comprehend it?
Great plan

Modern religion is moving to try and create some credibility back after years of abusing its power over the masses with "the word of god", which its self is steeped in manipulating and specialist selection to prove a point and reinforce its power.

I was handing in a wallet that I found in the fruit & vegetable isle of my local Tesco.

I happened to be wearing my classic "Jesus saves....but McClair scores with the rebound" t-shirt, and one of the officers who had just knocked off the nightshift struck up a conversation with me about how the wearing of such a shirt could see me get lifted for causing "religious offence" and the conversation just carried on from there.

Religious offence aside, it's a classic shirt.

The diving Jesus, resplendent in his robes never ceases to make me chortle.

Why's that a shit post. I thought it was a vital part of the thread?

As a gay, divorced, female priest who's had an abortion I cannot say questions of religion concern me, you could say I'm not bothered.

In all seriousness, how many homosexuals do we have on this board anyway? Zpence obviously, and myself, but any others?

I'm willing to bet there are many bisexuals. Everyone seems to be these days.