PRE-2000 CONTENT ONLY

This is one of those threads where people watch some stuff and then type stuff about it. This one is for any kinds of miscellany. An entire show, a couple of matches, some music video from Youtube... any wrestling-related footage or audio. Give your thoughts for us to read.

I have decided to resurrect my viewing. I don't know if I'm going to start WWE watching again or if I'll just settle for a big Dragon Gate catch up in preparation for November. To ease back into American wrestling, I have targetted my two favourite areas:

1) Nostalgia
2) Jobber squashes

Waylon Mercy vs Jobber.

I know it's a commonly held belief amongst most of the IWC these days and doesn't need pointing out, but by god it's a shame that Dan Spivey's back injury cut this character short. The look, the facials, the soft spoken delivery, the music, the Max Cady-esque overrall concept. Absolutely amazing gimmick and so, so well executed. I checked some links after watching the match and watched one his vignettes about how Waylon was going to make things "real peaceful" on arrival in the WWF and it was creepy as hell.

The match is what you expect from Waylon Mercy. From his intro up until bell time he's a charming Southern gent. I like that he isn't just cordial with the ref but also schmoozes and shakes hands with fans in the front row. It's not just a con to fool the ref and opponent, it's the facade he puts up for everyone, to mask the fact that he's a sadistic loon.

He jumps the jobber right from the bell while his back his turned and lays on a methodical beating. No hostility whatsoever towards the ref however. The ref cautions him on a couple of occasions for choking or not letting the guy out of the corner etc. and Waylon is totally apologetic and perfectly nice about it before returning to the assault.

I don't normally like the sleeper as a finisher, simply because it's become so established as a transitional move to head into a babyface comeback, but there really is no better finisher they could have had for Waylon. The look on his face, particularly his eyes, as his opponent fades away is just amazing. You often hear of serial killers who said that they killed purely because of an addiction to that moment where they feel someone's life fade away in their hands, and the frenzied, manic levels of joy that Waylon gets from putting this guy to sleep is clearly the wrestling equivalent of that.

Waylon Mercy vs Savio Vega

Waylon's first PPV match and the end of his undefeated streak. Savio has always been a capable wrestler, but this match is a wee bit sloppy. Savio hits probably the worst german suplex I've ever seen at one point. I like that Waylon's sleeper is protected though. Savio has to fight out of it using all of his resources, which is how it should be. I was cringing at the idea of them doing the usual, "arm drops once, arm drops twice, arm drops thre... no wait, arm shakes wildly and we have a babyface comeback!" because if the sleeper is your finishing hold then that spot needs to not feature in your matches at all ever because it will kill it. Savio wins with his sweet spinning heel kick.

I need to put a little comp together of all of Waylon's televised stuff. There wasn't a great deal of it anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard.

Know what I mean?

Doink vs Bob East

This was awesome. Matt Borne as evil Doink is one of my favourite things in wrestling. The character and his portrayal of it were just far too good for the promotion at the time. The subtleties of Borne's constantly shifting personality are a joy to watch. There's a post-match change in his expression that they capture as a close up and play in slow motion that is genuinely chilling, which is helped by the fantastic facepaint. That's not even mentioning one of the best theme songs of all time.

It helps that Bobby Heenan appears to be a huge fan of the gimmick. You can tell when The Brain is truly motivated because he'll try to add things to the match beyond his usual quips and silliness. For instance, in this one, he sells for the whole match that the scariest thing about Doink is that "he knows what he's doing in there" and that he's "an accomplished wrestler". Selling the idea that he's an absolute nut, but he's doubly dangerous because he's a dangerous nut with a textbook understanding of how to bring the pain. Contrast that with Brain's commentary when watching a Papa Shango match "the great thing about Papa Shango is that if you get bored when wrestling him you can just read him".

Anyway, yeah, Doink is amazing and I think the whole gimmick, theme and portrayal were years beyond what the promotion was ready for. On his way to the ring he offers a balloon animal to some children, then whips it away and cackles insanely at the last minute. Children look genuinely scared. They were big on cutting to shots of children during scary heel matches/entrances at the time, and only for Doink did they look genuinely terrified.

He is indeed an accomplished wrestler too. He hits an absolutely lovely fireman's carry to start, which I watched a few times over because it was so perfect. He works the jobber over with a coupe of submissions, an enzuigiri and a sweet dropkick to the chin. At one point he sets the guy up for a suplex, laughs like an absolute loon and then instantly snaps into the suplex with an angry grunt. Matt Borne just had every little aspect of the character down to perfection and it's great to watch.

He finishes the guy with that stump puller hold dealy. The jobber is tapping out but the ref counts three instead because his shoulders are down. Doink holds on for a bit after the bell to torture the guy, but the impact is lost a bit because we've sort of been told it's a pinning hold rather than a painful submission. It looks cool either way.


Papa Shango vs Jobber

I like Papa Shango. It was corny and cartoony, but I think he looked insanely cool, had wonderful theme music and is my favourite Charles Wright gimmick (admittedly the latter is faint praise at best). He beats the jobber good and proper here. Love the flying shoulder block, the biiiiig dropkick and of course his absolutely brutal shoulder breaker finish. He doesn't set him on fire or anything, I think this was a bit before that. He does give him a post match beating with the skull-on-a-stick though. I reviewed squashes a while back going by certain criteria, and post-match jobber violence is always a massive plus as part of any squash. Good work Papa, good work.


Adam Bomb vs Wrestling Superstar Virgil

Yet more amazing theme music. It's a shame that a composer with such a flair for the cinematic is reduced to generic rawwwk so much of the time these days. Sometimes he gets inspired and knocks out something like Beth Phoenix's theme, but he just doesn't seem to care so much any more. Adam Bomb's heel theme is absolutely tremendous. It's like something from a John Carpenter movie. So bleak, more worthy of a great horror movie than for the entrance of a slightly silly midcard heel. Bryan Clark is partly to blame here. He has Harvey Whippleman, he has a cool theme, awesome bright green contacts to sell the "affected by radiation" silliness and he looks suitably imposing because Bryan Clark has always been built like three houses. However, the mystique of it all is totally ruined when he gets into the ring, goes up to the camera and yells "ADAM BOMB, TAKING YOU, TO GROUND ZERO!!!!". Christ, how 80s is that? Oh, and the goggles are fucking ridiculous, but big Bry didn't choose them, so that's not his fault.

The match is a curious one. They have the idea right. Virgil is all speed and aerial moves, Bomb is all power and no-selling. It works, but the two don't quite gel and I got this uneasy feeling that they were always on the verge of a massive botch. It didn't happen, but there some hella sloppy moments, including a horribly loose Meltdown from Bomb to finish. There's one point where Virgil goes for a springboard flying cross body and Bomb just leans in with a shoulder to splat him down. That was friggin' great.

This was a really fun bit of wrestling viewing all round. Doink was amazing, so was Waylon. The jobbers were pasty, flabby and useless, their beatings were needlessly abusive. Five stars all round.

I always thought I was viewing Waylon Mercy through rose-tinted spectacles, based on maybe 2 matches I'd watched with him in, but having recently watched all of Raw 95, I can honestly say, every single thing involved with him is totally compelling. With him, Goldust, and tweener Diesel the WWF were taking unbelivable strides forward with their character development. It's amazing to see them set to a backdrop of Dean Douglas, Duke Drosse, TL Hopper & co. Such a contrast.

Anyway, as I'm killing time at work, here's some Waylon Mercy footage to save people time finding it:

First Promo

TV Debut

vs Savio Vega

vs Bret Hart

I randomly came across this the other day and it seems to fit well enough in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYzSeHI_6po

Yokozuna killing some jobber. Everything about this rules. Special mention to McMahon's "Forgettaboutit!". That used to be like his catchphrase.

I use to like Waylon Mercy it is a shame that poor Dan Spivey's back was knackered. I wonder if they was tempted to give the role to someone else - Vince and Co would have known that Spivey was on borrowed time before he made his debut.

More jobber deaths~!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cke0bqY2EUs...feature=related - Yoko kills some poor bastard with the Banzai Drop, then sits on him for ages. Try not to laugh as the guy struggles underneath him. Especially as Yoko's balls are practically in his face. Even Jim Cornette feels sorry for the poor guy and tells Yoko to get up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XngKLjGD7tk - Vader breaking a jobbers back. You've probably all seen this one or at least heard about it. He really puts a beatdown on this poor guy. He slaps him silly, hits a brutal lariat, chokeslams him so viciously that two guys in the background jump to their feet and put their hands on their heads and then finishes the job with a powerbomb that almost literally snaps the guy in half.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJnb-_YOdZM...feature=related - 'Sid Vicious destroys two gay guys' is the title of the video. Yup, that just about sums it up. At about 0:48 see Lenny Lane get annihilated.

Oh, and you're not wrong about Doink. Especially the Evil Doink Theme. Terrifying.

I always wondered this too. They would have needed someone just as soft spoken with the killer eyes who didn't have a massively popular gimmick already in place. They signed Tony Anthony in 96, he might have been good enough, though his short stature could have looked weird with it.

Picking my own pre-2000, I'd like to nominate the first 10 or so episodes of Shotgun Saturday Night, as I've just recently watched them. Set in bars and clubs across New York (and one in San Antonio), they are totally off the wall and different to how you've ever seen (or will ever see) WWF/E. Vince and Sunny are the (perfect) hosts, and though it's messy and jumbled, it's nice to see Vince really trying to find that perfect formula. The fans are mainly ECW regulars, and are thus totally racous and largely uncontrollable. It's just another Attitude building block, so it's influence cannot be denied.

The three highlights for me were:

- Terry Funk showing up in San Antonio and just ripping into everybody. Called Vince a "Yankee bastard", called Todd Pettengill's mother a "whore" and mocked Steve Austin, who was on guest commentary. They then had a great brawl throughout the bar.

- Mankind vs Bret from some club. Bret was on the verge of turning heel and fought his "aggressive" style, having a really great brawl with Foley. Seeing the traditional wrestler type in this environment was a such a weird thing, imagine Bret in ECW, and this is the closest we would ever get to seeing that.

- HHH vs The Undertaker from a train station. HHH bailed to run away, but Taker chased him and tombstoned him at the top of an escalator. Then HHH, laid out on the stairs, just slowly drifted down, as you would. Really great visual.

Alongside these, you had Marlena's boobs, Ahmed doing a Pearl River Plunge to a Nation member (D'Lo) on a car, Mankind falling in love with strippers and prostitutes, drunk Jake Roberts, and Sunny fucking Elmo.

It's weird but great stuff. Track it down, if you're like me, you'll love it and have no idea why.

It's hard to imagine anyone else doing the Waylon Mercy gimmick as well as Spivey. He had the imposing size, but it was little things like the thinning hair and the disarming accent and carefully pitched delivery that made him so perfect for it. He was also big without being all ripped and wrestler-like. He looked like a normal man, but a giant and slightly scary version of one, which is exactly what you want from a larger than life implied serial killer.

I can't wait to watch these jobber deaths later. I love squashes way too much. Good contributions gents, I was worried about this thread dying on its arse.

So yeah, I need complete heel Doink and complete Waylon Mercy. Also another squash comp like that amazing one banocref made a few years ago.

I didnt see this then but the way the doink gimmick was done really blows my mind. Amazing entrance music and that guy could really wrestle.

Recently watched Marty Jones vs Roy Regal (a very young William Regal).

Regal started 1 fall up, decent little wrestling match which is mostly Jones, ends in round 2 when Jones dropkicks Regal in the head and he can't answer the 10 count.

Short but sweet and a nice mix of my favourite era of wrestling with a more modern name.

I might as well throw this in here. It's yet another in a long, long list of RIM projects that died on its arse, but I'm actually quite proud of the writing I did for it.

ECW TV reviews, including KILLER promos from Cactus and Austin.

Watching this Video on youtube made me realize how much I used to like this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djcGCJqBJo

Double J was awesome, particularly his singer gimmick attire.

I really thought the Doink gimmick had lots of potential. Many people are scared of clowns, so a wrestling clown with a personality disorder would have been a great heel.
What ever happened to Dink?

Nothing, after that. It was Tiger Jackson that played him, I think, so I'm pretty sure he settled into the indies wherever he can still get work.

I too love heel Doink, but sadly thinking of Dink pretty much makes me think of everything I don't like about wrestling.

Lets watch some goodness shall we.

WCW Monday Nitro 02/06/1997

Well, I don't know if it'll be good as I don't know what's on it. Star ratings will be on here. More as a reference point than anything else. I've been doing them for myself as comparison points, so I might as well give them when I'm posting these.

Alex Wright vs. Glacier

Gotta laugh at Alex Wright's idiotic dancing. If you like short matches with lots of weak kicks ended with one big kick then this is the match for you. It's a bit short, but the action while the match was on left a lot to be desired, so I guess we're gonna have to start with a DUD.

After match beatdown of Glacier from Wrath and Mortis. I guess that's what he gets for being in such a shit match.

Buff Bagwell vs. Joe Gomez

This is bound to be a massive step up. Hey, turns out it WAS a step up. Not any great length and didn't have much, but what WAS there was spirited action, especially from Joe Gomez who seemed way up for it, even if he blew a big spot. I always give points for the Blockbuster as well. *

Hugh Morrus vs. Prince Iaukea

Prince Ikea has a bit of an advantage as Konnan attacks Morrus before he even gets to the bottom of the rampway. NAE LUCK BIG MAN ! This was too short to even consider rating, but they still managed to blow three moves. I guess that means we have to consider a rating after all. This is what's known to me as a DUD.

We have an interview with JJ Dillon who says that Steiner Brothers are the #1 Contenders, and out come Harlem Heat to allow Sherri to cut a promo which makes me want to tear my ears off, so it's right to ...

The Great Muta and Masa Chono vs. The Steiner Brothers

Less of the sarcasm. This WILL be a step up. This was a decent TV tag team match for the most part. The action sure as hell picked up in the second half of the match with all four men getting involved in the match. The non-sensical ending did my head in. The referee seen the interference as clear as day. Why did the nWo not get DQed ? That aside, this was decent. **1/2

M. Wallstreet vs. Dean Malenko

Wasn't he called V.M. Wallstreet or something like that ? I can't remember M. Wallstreet being the right name. Ah well, benefit of the doubt here. The idiocy of the booking at the end of the match takes away from it for me, but this was an action packed match with both guys looking good. **3/4

Harlem Heat vs. Damien and Ciclope

This wasn't very good for the time it lasted, apart from an absolutely mental Suicide Dive from Damien. I think I might give points for that ! Damien and Ciclope looked horrible in there though. 1/2*

Barbarian vs. Chris Benoit

This match features the most hilariously and brutally blown Front Suplex onto the top rope that I have ever seen. Knees first on the top rope and head first to the mat. OUCH ! The pace of this match was superb though and there was some big moves. Can't complain too much about this. **1/2

Scott Hall vs. Ric Flair

This is your main event for the evening. The opening minutes of this match were an absolute treat as it was as hot as hell with Flair going absolutely mental on anything that moved. When the match gets going, there's still some cracking exchanges and this was a hate filled brawl. A worthy TV main event. ***

We have a segment at the end, where Randy Savage basically mauls JJ Dillon. HA !

Thanks to JLM for this topic, which has basically urged me to go back and watch old shows like this.

You'll probably like seeing the Beverley Brothers trying to murder this jobber then...

Good lord~! The shit eating grin on his face as he makes the cover is the icing on the cake.

I'd just like to say, I don't actually enjoy seeing people get actually badly hurt or anything. Honest. But jobber squashes are (or at least were) great.

The Warlord vs Tom King from Wrestlemania Challenge on Sky One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc03g3yJbtA

Anyone else miss the pre-2000 days when we'd actually talk about wrestling, rather than just post endless lists of Youtube links?

JLM and Haraga have just put up reviews, and made their points about why they enjoyed the matches. Kenny's just posted a link to his ECW TV reviews on RIM. Various people have posted their thoughts on previous posts. Bionic Redneck has provided links, but also brief synopses and thoughts.

Where's the endless Youtube listing? Quit yer bellyaching.



As an addition to the Waylon Mercy discussion, you need to have his theme tune, because it's creepy, disturbing, yet also pretty cool:

Lahves're gon' be in Waylon Mercy's heyands...

Jean Pierre Lafitte was very underrated. Anybody else agree?

I never got a chance to see him in 1995. At the time, the only way I got to see wrestling was when I scrounged around my friends and asked them to tape the Big Five for me. So I didn't see any of the weekly shows, and as a result, missed pretty much all of JPL.

However, I always liked him as half of the Quebecers - a big guy who was surprisingly agile always gets a thumbs up from me. It's why I mark out for Mabel/Viscera/Big Daddy V's rolling heel kick.

It was quite cool how LaFitte was Bret Hart's main rival on the minor In Your House shows over the summer of 1995 - IYH2 and 3, I believe - while the main shows were reserved for his ongoing feud with Jerry Lawler and Isaac Yankem. Similarly, the next year Undertaker had the same sort of thing going with Mankind on the big PPVs and Goldust in the minor ones.

I guess the closest comparison these days is John Cena mixing it up with Big Show and the Miz.

He was also great as "X" in TNA, a few years ago, too. I thought.

WCW Uncensored 1997

To the opener.

Dean Malenko vs. Eddie Guerrero

This was an absolute god send of a match. There were some strange decisions, but on the whole, this was amazing. The amazing thing was just how both guys sold their injuries and made them believable and had either guy wanting to win. Malenko and Guerrero just did loads of reversals. An amazing match. ****1/2

Ultimo Dragon vs. Psychosis

All sorts of cool reversals going on here. This was your bog standard cruiser match. Lots of big spots, no meaning but both guys did their best to redeem it. **3/4

I'll be back.

I didn't know that Uncle Cletus was Tony Anthony. I thought he disappeared after TL Hopper. WWF really was in the shit during the summer months of 1996.

Summerslam bikini beach blast-off pun intended?

I'm such a fucking nerd.

Well I guess this thread is perfect for my nostalgia FMW reviewing. Here's ths hows I watched so far


FMW Hand-Held - October 6, 1989, Nagoya (Debut Show) - (1 3/4 hrs)


October 6, 1989, Nagoya Sports Center (4000 fans)

- Opening Ceremony

1. Boat People Joe -vs- Monkey Magic Wakita [**]
--- A fairly slow paced match with some good moves in between. The wrestling wasn ok enough in a walking pace. Wakita had most of the offence, but Boat People Joe came back and got the win with a fine top rope lariat. Wakita is of course Super Delfin getting his first gig in Japan after having to flee to Europe to get his pro-wrestling career going after his training in the New Japan dojo didn't lead to anything. I've got no idea who this star-masked Boat People Joe is. Can anyone help with that?
10:58 of 10:59 - Joe pinned Wakita after a top rope lariat


2. Jimmy Backlund -vs- Mitsuteru Tokuda [**]
--- Backlund carried judo style wrestler Tokuda to a decent bout. Some good suplexes and mat work. Tokuda had most of the offence, but couldn't put Backlund away with submissions. Backlund the got the pin with a backdrop which Tokuda almost kicks out of. That after Takuda had been in control locking these submissions in and throwing the future "Heavenly Body" Jimmy Del Ray around. Backlunds ring attire really looked terrible in a sleezy way. Ultimate jobber look. This match was also noticable of having a young Ted Tanabe as referee!
5:45 of 5:45 - Backlund pinned Tokuda with a backdrop suplex hold


3. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga -vs- Billy Mack - (Rounds) [* 1/4]
--- "Mr.Danger" in one of his first wrestling matches. Without the beard. Without the bleached hair. But in his martial arts costume kicking and kicking at Mack at a insanse pace. Mack didn't know how to handle it and just took the beating without hardly getting anything in. This match was done in 3-minute rounds and in the 3rd Mack was tired of Matsunaga's kicking knocking him down with a closed first punch which at this point isn't allowed in FMW and that got Mack DQ'ed as referee Ted Tanabe didn't like that.
7:44 of 7:30 - Matsunaga defeated Mack by DQ (1:30) of the 3rd Round.


4. Witch Warrior -vs- Miwa Sato & Eriko Tsuchiya & Kumiko Matsuda [*]
--- Here's the early stage of FMW's women's division. Sato, Matsuda and the lady who's later become Shark Tsuchiya was the first women out of the FMW dojo facing an bigger American with a very GLOW like "tallent". It was fun for it's cheesyness as the young babyface FMW women trying to handle this monster of a woman. Even Tsuchiya was a rookie babyface at this point and also got squashed by the Vampire lady who came flying off the top rope with a tope. Other FMW'ers was at ringside like Crusher Maedomari, but this was before Megumi Kudo, Combat Toyoda and Rebun Amada came to town. After the bout another big foreigner (Bad Girl?) came to attack the Warrior, so it was the American girls that was the focus early on.
4:06 of 4:06 - Witch Warrior pinned Tsuchiya after a top rope tope dive


5. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- The Sambo Kid [3/4*]
--- Kurisu is a curious character. Longtime opening card guy for AJPW during the 80's and appearently grumpy about not getting more out of his career. FMW would be the first place he'd get to vent out his anger at poor helpless young guys, but his first match for FMW he gets to beat a bigger masked foreigner in a very basic bout. A little too basic, but you could still see Kurisu has the wonderfull stiff bastard execution the little he does like on the lariat before making Sambo submit to a submission.
9:59 of 9:59 - Kurisu made Sambo Kid submit to a kneebar


6. Masaji Aoyagi -vs- Atsushi Onita - (Rounds) [***]
--- Onita! Onita! Onita! Freakin' awesome. Even before the dawn of the hardcore legend the fans adored Onita as he takes on martial artist Aoyagi. Onita and Aoyagi had faced each other at least twice already in 1989 in Pioneer and another indy show and had already a established hatred. Both guys are also from Nagayo so it's a real treat for the hometown fans who packed this arena. For this match the fans actually stood up and was very vocal. You don't see that happen these days. Onita would open well with his Funk wrestling, but the kicks and karate punches of Aoyagi was effective and Onita milked the pain to hell. It was the times Onita was knocked down the match was really alive along with Onita fighting with all his heart. But it wasn't enough in this match as Aoyagi had him kicked to pieces once the 4th round was ending. Onita could barely get up as the final round started. Not even with the corner support of Tarzan Goto, who didn't wrestle on the show, or the fans going crazy for a Onita revenge. He was doomed and his corner men knew it too and threw in the towel. The expression on Onita's face as he saw the towel was just classic! The Onita crybaby look. While Aoyagi was celebrated by his karate students getting thown in the air. I miss wrestling that was this much alive and real at heart.
13:25 of 16:13 - Aoyagi defeated Onita (0:45) of the 5th Round when the towel was thrown in


COMMENTS: FMW's fist show creating an immediate buzz. At this time there was only one other indy promotion and that was Pioneer unless you classify UWF as a indy. And the hardcore fans where hungry for something different to what All Japan and New Japan had to offer and Onita gave them just what they wanted. This was only prototype of what FMW would become, but it came with a unpredictable formula and a place where nobodys could become somebody. Watching guys who'd end up having long careers so fresh and unestablished is fun. Here we had a maskless Super Delfin, unbleaced "Mr.Danger" Matsunaga, rookie girl Shark Tsuchiya, "Heavenly Bodies" Jimmy Del Ray early in his career and of course Aoyagi early in his career. But of course the life of FMW was always Atsushi Onita from day one.


--PUNQ--

Pioneer/FMW Hand-Held: October 26 & December 1 & 4, 1989 - (4 hrs)


Pioneer Senshi - October 26, 1989, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (1hr 25min)

1. Kazuhiko Matsuzaki -vs- Katsuhiro Hasizume - (Rounds) [*]
--- I know very little about Pioneer's roster or results. They were a short-lived indy promotion before indy wrestling took over in Japan. So I've no idea about these wrestlers at all. The names might be wrong too, but I belive this is the Matsuzaki that would turn up in countless indy promotions in the 90's. The other guy I'm clueless about. This match was done in a very MMA style way in a 5 rounds 2 minute rules way. There was hardly any striking in this match, but they were well schooled at the ground game. Almost too schooled at the defensive part because this became too uneventful as they'd get out or away from anything dangerous before it became dangerous. But no doubt these two had good training at the fighting game before wrestling in Pioneer. Anyway this ended in a 5 round draw.
10:25 of 10:00 - Matsuzaki wrestled Hasizume to a time limit draw after 5 Rounds


2. Hiroshi Itakura -vs- Yuji Kawachi [** 1/2]
--- Pioneer wasn't as professional looking as UWF at the time, but it was the next best thing if you liked the shootstyle of wrestling. In a way Pioneer looks like the late-80's version of Battlarts. Solid workers displaying some fine technical fighting in all aspects of the game. Submissions, suplexes and strikes. Itakura was bigger and stronger the Kawachi and would dominate him almost the entire bout throwing him around like he was nothing. That of course generated some love for Kawachi when he'd try and make his comebacks. Very short-lived comebacks, but he did manage to suplex Itakura a couple of times. But having so control of the match Itakura wasn't going to let that stop him. In the end nobody got the win and it went to a time limit draw.
20:01 of 20:00 - Irakura wrestled Kawachi to a 20:00 Time Limit Draw


3. Masahiko Takasugi -vs- Masato Ueno - (Rounds) [**]
--- Takasugi was more the traditional pro-wrestler while Ueno had more MMA style to him and not as fluid in the pro game. I wouldn't call the match all that good, but I found some enjoyment out of it anyway as Ueno who looked fairly uncomfortable did get in a couple of nice moves and even a amateur lift powerbomb to surprise me while Takasugi would be the one to keep the match together with the basics and even treating Ueno like a rookie in the end locking in the single leg crab for the win in round 4.
10:08 - Takasugi made Ueno submit to a single leg crab at (0:50) in the 4th Round


4. Ryuma Go -vs- Fumihiro Niikura [* 1/2]
--- How many short-lived indy promotions was Go apart of? Many. So many that the yakuza controled him and forced him into doing gay porn to pay off his debt. At least he got to be in main events of promotion that collapsed one after the other. Here on this Pioneer show he faces former bodybuilder Fumihiro Niikura who was trained in New Japan debuting in 1981 before jumping to All Japan around 1985, probable coming with Choshu and his gang during all the termoil with Inoki at the time. But Niikura was nothing but or opening card nobody and in 1986 he had a heart attack. Here a heart attack and many opening card matches in his career he gets to main event a indy show with the once respectable peoples wrestler Ryuma Go. And it was a very down to the ground technical pro-wrestling match without many flashy moments. They relyed mostly on the submissions getting the crowds emotion, but it didn't work as well as they'd hoped as there was more laughter then cheering most of the time as Go was already a comical figure in 1989 it seems. Far from his famouse days of the late-70's when he was feuding with Tatsumi Fujinami over the WWF Junior belt. The crowd also seemed unhappy that Go won this long bout too.
22:06 - Go made Niikura submit to a wakigatame armbar


FMW - December 4, 1989

5. Takayuki Mukumoto -vs- Tomohiko Otsuka - (Karate)
--- Waste of time Katae exhibition.
4:02 of 4:00 - Mukumoto defeated Otsuka vie decision after 2 Rounds


6. Tetsuo Yamagata -vs- Fabulous Arsei - (Karate)
--- Yamatomi was aggressive and made this karate exhibition interesting. Nothing too interesting happend though.
4:04 of 4:00 - Yamatomi defeated Alse via decision after 2 Rounds


7. Akitoshi Saito -vs- Kazuo Yoshioka - (Karate)
--- Current NOAH wrestler in his early days in pro-wrestling and before he killed Mitsuharu Misawa. This was before he'd officially became a pro-wrestler only doing a karate exhibition match on a pro-wrestling show. Saito made his official pro debut on December 20, 1990, over a year later. So it's a curiosity seeing him so young and fit. The fight wasn't anything sepcial except for Saito getting knocked down by a illigal fist punch at the end of the 1st round. The match was still declared a draw and Saito didn't look too good.
5:07 of 4:00 - Saito fought Yoshioka to a draw after 2 Rounds


8. Little Devil -vs- Tiger Jackson [1/2*]
--- Little Devil was Little Louie under the Boat Man Joe mask. I KNOW Little Louie wasn't the rather tall guy under that mask on FMW's debut show This was a pure midget comedy match! Funny and not at all serious in any way. The masked Louie won with a roll-up hooking Tiger's shoulders down with his short legs.
8:20 - Devil pinned Jackson with a leg roll-up


9. Delta Dawn -vs- Kumiko Matsuda & Miwa Sato [*]
--- Delta Dawn was one of the foreigners, along with Madusa and The Beastie, AJW used during their experimenting period between the Crush Gals era and the early 90's hardcore fans boom. Thankfully Dawn they stopped using Dawn and sadly FMW brings her back to Japan in a rather badly funny squash of two of it's unfinished girls. Sato & Matsuda didn't have too much to come with, but I found it rather enjoyable even if the match was shit. Dawn wins naturally.
7:02 of 7:04 - Dawn pinned Sato after a backbreaker


10. Fumiharu Asako -vs- Monkey Magic Wakita [* 1/2]
--- Sambo Asako has joined FMW by this time and while the future Super Delfin looked more professional in his work then him Sambo had the size and legit background so Wakita didn't stand a chance but made a good figure while losing. Wakita's dropkicks looked especially good. But he was up against a guy with extensive sambo training and with several armbar locks, a chickenwing crossface and a big fisherman's suplex Wakita was close to helpless against the big guy. And a powerslam was all that was needed and the Monkey man was pinned.
7:22 - Asako pinned Wakita with a powerslam


11. Dennis Knight -vs- Mitsuteru Tokuda [*]
--- The future WWF/E star Godwinn and Mideon against a Japanese martial arts guy. Ok for the spots like Knight's DDT and Tokuda's backdrop suplex. Knight also used the martial arts belt to choke Taokuda with before powerslaming him down for the count.
6:43 of 6:43 - Knight pinned Tokuda with a powerslam


12. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga -vs- Tarzan Goto - (Rounds) [** 1/2]
--- This was ugly sweet! Goto started out like a badass, but Matsunaga with his martial arts quickly put an stop to that knocking him out of the ring with a summersault kick. That set the "love" between the two and they continued beating the crap out of each other for the next 3 rounds. Matsunaga's kicking and superb he was ruthlessly out to hurt the FMW'er and Goto wasn't going to let the martial artist do that without paying. In the chaos the referee was unable to control the hatred in the ring and was knocked down several times by Goto before more people entered the ring and the two rivals was covered in blood for a hot screwjob finish. Matsunaga was awarded the win, but but this feud seems far from over.
9:46 of 8:58 - Matsunaga defeated Goto by DQ


13. Atsushi Onita & Dick Murdoch -vs- Jos LeDuc & Masanobu Kurisu - (Street Fight) [** 3/4]
--- Unintentional funny things before the match was the positioning of the flower girls and the audio of Onita's "Wild Thing" enterance dropping out. Shows you that FMW wasn't as well organized and professional in it's early days as the big companys. The match was a good ol' southern brawl. Old school American punch fighting with the kings of that style in Dick Murdoch and Jos LeDuc doing a wonderful job swinging the punches. One of the awesome parts was Kurisu getting a chair smashed over his head and Murdoch continuing squeezing the head in between the chairseat. Also the way Kurisu got upset with the crowd abling Murduch to ambush him from behind. The end came with the only attempt at winning during the match as Murduck simply rolled Kurisu up in a inside cradle after a blow from LeDuc had backfired. Onita was there to lay the punches in too, but he was greatly out-shadowed here by the two big old foreigners at this game.
9:26 of 9:28 - Murdoch pinned Kurisu with a small package


FMW - December 1, 1989, Osaka Takaishi Seadside Sports Center (1500 fans)

14. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- Monkey Magic Wakita [* 1/2]
--- Yeah, Kurisu sure is a grumpy old man. He doesn't like to see younger guys try and take his spotlight and Wakita got a taste of that here headbutting and stomping him down and out of the ring before the real punishment started. Man, did those chairshots sounded nasty! Kurisu wasn't holding anything back going berzerk with that chair. The view was blocked because of the fans, but you could see him swing the chair and the sound could everybody hear! And then back in the ring it was over with a armlock.
7:50 of 7:51 - Kurisu made Wakita submit to a chickenwing hold


15. Fumiharu Asako -vs- Mitsuteru Tokuda [3/4*]
--- Two martial arts guys trying their luck at pro-wrestling without much experience. Not a total trainwreck, but hardly a masterpiece. Best part was Asako running Tokuda down like a speedy truck trying to kill someone. Asako won via count out because of that. But that's when Tarzan Goto came out and demanded a re-start. I wish they hadn't because the next 3 minutes had close to nothing happening....
5:02 of 5:00 - Asako defeated Tokuda by Count Out
2:44 - Asako wrestled Tokuda to a Time Limit Draw


16. Dick Murdoch -vs- Dennis Knight - (Chain Match) [**]
--- Short, but classic Murdoch fight. As soon as Dennis called Murdoch an old man Knight got his ass whipped like he was his little kid. And Murdoch ends it like he usually does in Japan. With the legendary brainbuster!
3:57 of 3:57 - Murdoch pinned Knight after a brainbuster


17. Atsushi Onita -vs- Mitsuhiro Matsunaga - (Rounds) [**]
--- Not as heated as most Onita matches. Matsunaga would use his karate kicking and punching effectively, but this match was all about the Thunder Fire powerbomb! Onita tried for it in the 2nd round, but Matsunaga blocked it, but he didn't do that in the 3rd round and was MURDERED! Once the match was over Tarzan Goto came in to create heat and help build for his bout with Matsunaga on the 4th which I reviewed earlier here.
7:44 of 6.33 - Onita pinned Matsunaga with a Thunder Fire powerbomb at (1:33) in the 3rd Round


COMMENTS: The one and a half hours of Pioneer Senshi wrestling was interesting. The wrestling was realistic looking, but kind of faceless. But it's a promotion I wish there was more info on available as they did have some interesting inter-promotional matches in their short excistance which might be available some obscure place via hand-helds out there. The other two shows on this one are two shows from FMW's first real tour after their two debut shows in October. Sadly I don't have any source for FMW's first Korakuen Hall show on October 10th which has the Onita vs Aoyagi rematch and I'm pretty sure a copy of that show can be found somewhere. FMW also had shows on December 3rd, 6th, 8th and 10th. But only the tour ended seems to be available via hand-held (or is there commercial relases of some of these?). FMW managed to bring in Little (Louie) Devil, Tiger Jackson, Delta Dawn, Despina Montagas, Dennis Knight, Joe LeDuc and most of all Dick Murdoch who'd last been seen in Japan working for New Japan a year earlier for this tour and did a impressive run drawing full houses. But probable the main reason for that was Onita and FMW's feud with the martial arts people from Masashi Aoyagi's camp.


--PUNQ--

FMW Hand-Held - December 10, 1989, Tokyo - (1 3/4 hrs)


December 10, 1989, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (2300 fans)

1. Little Devil -vs- Tiger Jackson [1/4*]
--- The midget comedy with ass biting, ass grabing and time for ass scratching on slow counts. Little Louie wins again like he did in their December 4th match. Simple leg roll-up.
6:46 of 6:46 - Devil pinned Jackson with a leg roll-up


2. Dennis Knight -vs- Mitsuteru Tokada [*]
--- Dressed Mideon facing the martial arts nobody Tokuda and only gets in a little bit of trouble. Tokuda did leep out of the ring with a plancha and executed a backdrop suplex nicely along with locking Knight in different submissions MMA style. But that's nothing against the Texas style of a fucked-up DDT and a sloppy lariat before Knight did a "Dr.Death" style powerslam for the win. The match had it's spots, but hardly a wrestling classic.
6:57 of 6:57 - Knight pinned Tokuda wit ha running powerslam


3. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- Shoji Akiyoshi [** 1/4]
--- Take notes veterans. Don't want any stupid kid to enter this business and think they're pro wrestlers? This is how you treat them. No silky gloves on here. Kurisu doesn't like rookies and that's what Universal Lucha Libre wrestler Akiyoshi got to feel. Akiyoshi is current New Japan wrestler Jado in his very early days. And I bet he regret taking on this booking because Kurisu was in KAYFABE!od to play with kids. It started nicely with some hard stomping from the veteran. Then came the kicking to the head and the chairshots looked absolutely sickening! Kurisu more or less knocked him silly and to the point that Jado couldn't get up and needed help from two guys and he still coundn't stand up. Classic old fuck beats the crap out of a nobody loser. Ironically Akiyoshi ended up having a much more successful career then Kurisu had. Hell, most people had a better career then Kurisu.
7:19 of 7:19 - Kurisu pinned Akiyoshi after a headkick


4. Fumiharu Asako -vs- Monkey Magic Wakita [* 1/4]
--- The big sambo dude and Wakita facing one and other again and once more the big guy won with a powerslam. Wakita tried to suplex Asako a few times, but gave up on the ridiculous attempts doing inside cradles instead. The future Delfin was in reality helpless against the size and legit background of Asako.
7:01 of 7:01 - Asako pinned Wakita after a powerslam


5. Delta Dawn -vs- Despina Montages - (Indian Strap Match) [*]
--- I feared the worst seeing as there was two gaijin females fighting each other, but they kept it short and simple enough to make it work. Not too much need for the ropes apart from a little choking and it was Montages who was mostly in charge before Jos LeDuc the bastard helped Dawn by punching the women down making Montages a easy victim for Dawn. Tarzan Goto naturally didn't like that LeDuc was hitting on his woman.....
6:02 of 6:02 - Dawn pinned Montages after Jos LeDuc punched her down


6. Dick Murdoch -vs- Jos LeDuc - (Chain Match) [**]
--- Two freakin' oldtimers in a old school chain match. And you could see they've done this type of match before as the chain wasn't just something that was in the way to stumble over. It was used effectively as a weapon and also a way to counter with like when LeDuc threw it around the turnbuckle post to pull Murdoch off him and then beat the crap out of him as Murdoch was trapped in the corner. Otherwise most of the end was closed fist fighting which both of these know how to do. Many punches until they were dazed and bloodied and Murdoch could land the big elbow drop to beat the big fat lumberjack. The fans however wanted Murdoch to end with a brainbuster. They didn't get their wish and I don't think that's even possible to get LeDuc off the ground that way.
10:34 of 10:34 - Murdoch pinned LeDuc after a jumping elbow drop


7. Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto -vs- Mitsuhiro Matsunaga & Jerry Blayman - (Barbed Wire Match) [***]
--- Don't know who Blayman (or Jerry Grayman?) is, but he's a tall martial arts foreigner who gets the honor of being in the first barbed wire match in Japan teaming with the future "Mr.Danger" against the two FMW favourites in Tarzan and the God himself Onita! The barbed around the ring wrapped around the turnbuckle posts so that there was some space for the wrestlers to stand on the apron between the ropes and the sharp wire. The barbed wire wasn't really used for bumping. Sure they touched it as they were pushed into it standing out on the apron waiting for a tag and a Onita in pain would grab on to it "without knowing" what he was grabing. Onita of course got a big cut on the arm which he was selling like he was near death being nearly helpless against the martial artists who's kicking looked weak in a very unstructured bout. But the match had life! A lot of it. It was a war area which the barbed wire helped picture. And the war was on until Onita got in a final force of attack dropping Blayman down on his neck with the Thunder Fire powerbomb for the KO where Onita himself barely got up in time. That might have been the end of that match, but Masashi Aoyagi made sure the war would continue attacking and brawling with both Onita and also Kurisu who alongside Onita & Goto was all former AJPW lowcarders together. That feud didn't marerialize as after the January Korakuen Hall show Aoyagi's martial arts guys were pulled from FMW shows.
11:00 of 11:01 - Onita defeated Blayman by KO after a Thunder Fire powerbomb


COMMENTS: Fun seeing old guys like Murdoch and LeDuc do an old fashioned brawl. Slow and man-like. The undercard was very random stuff, but that Kurisu squash is something that'll stick in your mind a long time because that trashing of Jado was unhumane! But most important about this show is naturally Onita doing his first barbed wire match in Japan. A trend that would set the flavour for so many indy promotions to come the decades later. Onita matches are so raw and emotional it's insane. I wish more people would learn form him and how he does his Terry Funk act.


--PUNQ--

FMW COMMS: January-February 1990 - (2 1/2 hrs)


January 7, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (2450 fans)

1. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- Jang Yong Wow - (Open Tournament - Round 1)
--- Kurisu is and always will be a bastard and he just trashes the Korean martial artist the puro way smashing him hard with a chair before backdroping him and locking in the crab hold for the win.
1:39 of 4:38 - Kurisu made Wow submit to a single leg crab 1:38 of the 2nd Round


2. Mitsuhiro Matsunaga -vs- Katsuji Ueda - (Open Tournament - Round 1)
--- Ueda is a boring shootboxer who was Onita's bodyguard getting to be apart of the FMW roster. Matsunaga gets through to the next round because of a simple screwjob lowblow.
1:03 of 3:21 - Matsunaga defeated Ueda by DQ 0:21 of the 2nd Round


3. Fumiharu Asako -vs- Lee Gak Soo - (Open Tournament - Round 1)
--- Soo is a very Bruce Lee type figther and something very different. Quick animated kung fu kicking and quite energetic and fun in that way. I wouldn't say his kicks are the most damanging, but Asako sold them like he was about to get KO'ed. However Soo get a little carried away and ended up kicking down the referee too as he was doing a KO count and that caused the second screwjob in a row.
2:02 of 6:29 - Asako defeated Soo by DQ 0:29 of the 3rd Round


4. Tarzan Goto -vs- Satoshi Imaizumi - (Open Tournament - Round 1)
--- Didn't look too impressive and short yet boring match where Tarzan beat up a martial artist who's probable from Aoyagi's stable. A couple of judo takedowns from Imaizumi, but that was it and Goto won unspectacularly with a knee standing Cobra Clutch.
2:19 of 4:14 - Goto made Imaizumi submit to a Cobra Clutch


5. Atsushi Onita -vs- The Shooter #1 - (Open Tournament - Round 1)
--- Onita facing a masked mystery shooter! Oh, the drama! Not! Shooter impressed with some professional kicking, but was soon exposed as easy beat-up meat for Onita who Thunder Fire'ed him before locking in the leg for the crab.
2:56 of 3:57 - Onita made Shooter submit to a single leg crab


6. Tarzan Goto -vs- Fumiharu Asako - (Open Tournament - Round 2)
--- Highlight from Asako was him armdraging Goto out of the ring and a hillarious lariat where Asako climed to the freakin' top rope to execute it. He jumped kind of short and the Korakuen Hall more or less filled with laughter at the sight of this fat man trying a crazy thing like that and not pulling it off properly even if he got Goto down. Well, with Asako not knowing how to follow up on a wounded Tarzan was met with a headbutt out of nowhere for the pin. Lovely simple finish.
2:30 of 6:14 - Goto pinned Asako after a headbutt


7. Beast the Barbarian -vs- Atsushi Onita - (Open Tournament - Round 2; WWA Brass Knucks Title) [*]
--- Beast the Barbarian?! Did this guy ever have much of a career anywhere before or after this? He was a typical 80's barbarian character with some absolutely lovely fury trunks! Fur on trunks is underrated! In very typical Onita way he made his opponent look good beating him up even if the fans was having a hard time taking this barbarian seriously. He worked kind of stiff though and even smashed a chair over the ring announcer before it originally ended in a draw when they were fighting on the Korakuen floor. They got a re-start and this time for the WWA Brass Knucks Belt. Best parts of this was Onita's backdrop suplex out on the floor along with the Thunder Fire powerbombs Onita needed to do to put this freak out of his misary. I know he's supposed to be a beast, but I still don't understand why they let him kick out of the first deadly Thunder Fire powerbomb?! At least the second one got him looking brutal. And now Onita has a belt to build his promotion around.
2:16 of 2:17 - Barbarian wrestled Onita to a No-Contest
4:49 of 4:56 - Onita pinned Barbarian after a Thunder Fire powerbomb to become the 2nd WWA Brass Knucks Champion.


8. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- Mitsuhiro Matsunaga - (Open Tournament - Semi-Final)
--- Martial arts kicks can be hurtful, but smashing several chairs full force to your back will keep you down. And that's how the old asshole defeated the future "Mr.Danger" by count out.
2:48 of 4:10 - Kurisu defeated Matsunaga by Count Out


9. Tarzan Goto -vs- Atsushi Onita - (Open Tournament - Semi-Final) [1/2*]
--- After wrestling Beast the Barbarian Onita was tired and beat down and Tarzan just rolled over Onita with ease stomping him to the ground before locking in a cross-armbreaker bending the arm again and again until Onita nodded his head for the submission. Very unspectacularly done, but also surprising how simple it was done seeing the great Onita quit so easy and clean.
3:32 of 3:32 - Goto made Onita submit to a cross-armbreaker


10. Masanobu Kurisu -vs- Tarzan Goto - (Open Tournament - Final) [*]
--- Goto beat Onita with ease and Kurisu close to beat Goto with ease. The 3 former All Japan lowcarders are dividing the top position in the company in it's first 6 months in excistance. Goto's problem was his back. And with Kurisu favourite hobby being to stomp and smash chairs over that area Tarzan was as helpless as he gets. And when it finally looked like Goto would make the comeback his back was hurting so much that he couldn't execute his offensive moves and Kurisu would be all over him again. Very simple and effective formula like with most of the turnament. Nobody was superhuman except maybe beast the Barbarian and they capitalized on someone hurting and kept it at that. There might never had been any major climaxes, but the story was in full effect and that gave Kurisu the win here as he locked Tarzan in a crab hold bending that back some more until he submitted. Kurisu attacked Onita after the bout setting up the barbed wire match between them on February 12th.
7:58 of 7:58 - Kurisu made Goto submit to a single leg crab


February 12, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (2350 fans)

11. Konan El Barbaro -vs- Rey Misterio [* 3/4]
--- An early Konan bout. This was when he was still wearing a mask and the match was close to a wrestling lesson from Misterio with Konan doing ok, but showing strong signs of not being totally ready for the big time just yet. I loved how they kept teasing tope spots again and again irritating the crowd more and more before Konan was the one to finally land one. At least partially as he nearly flew over Misterio. Well, Misterio didn't want to be any worse and went for a plancha to the outside. However Konan was too far off and while trying to man himself up for a big leep Misterio lost balance for an embarrassing dive. Funny moment that they'd built up for a long time and that's how badly it went. Apart from that the match was the typical lucha exhibition Japan gets before the muscle man Konan made Misterio submit to a ball-tie-up lucha special.
13:31 of 13:31 - Konan made Misterio submit to a modified Indian Death Lock ball


12. Lee Gak Soo -vs- Fumiharu Asako - (Hair Match) [** 1/2]
--- Soo did some martial arts trick exhibitions before the match including doing about a hundred attempts at choping a stone in half. He managed to do it in the end, but it looked hopeless a long time. The match was entertaining in it's own special way and will probable be loved by fans of kung fu movies as Lee was doing his flashy Bruce Lee fighting kicking Asako down a million times. Asako doesn't have a clue about the striking game, especially not defensively and Lee could land those quick kicks as much as he wanted. Asako becomes such a lovable super-heavyweight underdog as he gets knocked down by this little Korean kicker countless times. Asako should consider himself lucky that there wasn't any 3 times knocked down TKO rule because then he'd probable lose 5 times each round as most of the match was based around him laying there passed out and then miraculously get up just in time to continue fighting. Asako is better at the ground and suplex game, so when he managed to catch the little prick he had Lee in a dangerous position. But this wasn't Asako's bout and the fans loved Lee because he's such a different fighter then anyone else and eventually got the KO win on his 1000th knock down or something which means Asako gets a haircut.
13:17 of 13:11 - Soo defeated Asako by KO 1:11 of the 5th Round. Asako gets his head shaven.


13. Atsushi Onita -vs- Masanobu Kurisu - (Barbed Wire Boards Match) [** 3/4]
--- The first match in Japan with barbed wire boards around the ring. And you know nearly everything in this match was about pushing, stomping and draging you opponent out into the sea of sharp metal. And two minutes into the match Onita takes the first fall into the warzone and Onita sells it like only he can! And he got a cut across his back too with blood running across his back of his teared up white shirt. Onita would fall in the barbed wire several time. Sometimes a little too easy as he would be standing in it and then roll and fall down in pain. Regardless it was more fun seeing Onita try and get Kurisu to take a barbed wire bump. That wasn't so easy. Onita tryed to drag him full force out of the ring with Kurisu grabing ahold of the ropes in full streach. He managed to land clean on the side of the barbed wire nearly under the ring escaping it barely. Onita would finally get him out there a little bit later, but the camera view of that one was bad so you din't get a sense of how the traditional bastard Kurisu was doing in this trash environment. And then it was time for the end with Onita killing the old shit with two nasty straight down Thunder Fire powerbombs with Kurisu somehow kicking out of the first one!
13:49 of 13:46 - Onita pinned Kurisu with a Thunder Fire powerbomb


NJPW - November 19, 1987, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (Chochu vs Maeda Shoot Incident x 2 angles)

14. Riki Choshu & Masa Saito & Hiro Saito -vs- Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada & Osamu Kido - (Ringside) [** 3/4]
--- This is the inframous shootkick match where Akira Maeda blindsided Choshu with a kick to the eye just because he wanted to. The situation was a ego driven affair with Maeda feeling he was depushed down the cards after Choshu had returned to New Japan a few months earlier and refused to play second fiddle to him. There was also the major styles clash between the two with Choshu the master and pioneer of the lariat wrestling with big bumps and Maeda a UWF shoot stylist of kicks and submissions. The match took a turn in mid-match when Maeda first refused to go along with a Scorpion Death Lock and then Choshu returning the favour by refusing to go along with a wakigatame armbar which Maeda in return refused to sell Choshu's stomp in any way in which Choshu refused to let Akira have the next attack. And this none co-operation caused Maeda to lash out a wreckless warning chop which didn't really hit well along with a warning kick aiming for the arm. The next thing that happend was them ending up in Maeda's corner so he could tag out but before Akira got out of the ring Choshu planted a ruthless faceslap in as payback for the warning shots Maeda had taken at him. Well, they quickly got them seperated and the match continued it's normal way until Choshu was locking Kido in a Scorpion Death Lock facing the other way then where Maeda was. And as soon Choshu had his back turned to Maeda you could see him climb through the ropes and kick Choshu in the eye from behind and without Choshu knowing what was coming. The camera doesn't quite get all of the kick, you get a good feel of what's happening when seeing Maeda creap up on him. And then Akira walked calmly back to his place on the apron as Choshu was trying to summon himself. Once Choshu had Kido turned in the ring position to lock the Scorion Death Lock in he saw the face of Akra and just let go of Kido and started walking toward Maeda. They had to be seperated by the others again. This time it was much harder not getting them to attack each other. Once some order was settled they went for a quick finish with Takada looking barely hurt while getting pinned by Choshu and his lariat wrestling. You could then see Choshu's eye had been shut completely as a result of Maeda's actions. Looked sickening! Akira Maeda would get fired because of this and start up UWF Version 2 the next year.
10:52 - Choshu pinned Takada after a lariat


15. Riki Choshu & Masa Saito & Hiro Saito -vs- Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada & Osamu Kido - (Stands) [** 3/4]
--- Same match with this angle coming from the TV camera high up in the stands in the Korakuen Hall and you get a very good view of the impact the kick had. Choshu's hair was just flying from the kick Akira blindsided him with. Maeda was super over with the fans and a massive pro-Maeda chant filled the arena too as this was happening. A really strange moment and a real important one as well.
10:31 of *10:52 - Choshu pinned Takada after a lariat


COMMENTS: The 1st hour was a edited version of a tournament featuring shooters, characters and All Japan three which the company was originally built around. Surprisingly many screwjobs and short matches becoming even shorter being squeezed into a one hour commercial release. There wasn't the usual drama usually associated with Onita and seeing him so helplessly trapped into submission was almost weird watching. But this showed one of Kurisu's biggest moments as a pro-wrestler. With the follow-up show of him facing Onita in the first barbed wire board match on Japanese soil. Also fun seeing a fresh Konan from his rookie years doing lucha spot wrestling. Not to mention Asako getting pathetic sympathy as he got the crap beat out of him at the hands of that Bruce Lee wannabe. At the end comes two angles of the Akira Maeda and Riki Choshu shoot incident from November 19, 1987. One at ringside and one from the usual high-up camera in the Korakuen Hall. Pro shots. It's interesting to see the pride and personality clash between two such big personalities.


--PUNQ--

FMW on COMM - April 1, 1990, Tokyo - (1 hr)


April 1, 1990, Tokyo - Korakuen Hall (2450 fans)

1. Megumi Kudo & Reibun Amada -vs- Miwa Sato & Kumiko Matsuda [* 1/2]
--- Megumi Kudo and Reibun Amada has now joined FMW! Two former AJW ladies who'd not been considered good enough by AJW and dropped a little while earlier. Amada was the most well known at this point having held the AJW Tag Title a short while before being droped from the roster. I think this was Amada's FMW debut while Kudo had been on a few of the FMW shows the month before. And it was clear that the former AJW due was in charge treating the FMW trained girls like they were trash. And it was clear that they were too. Especially Sato who was far from ready at this point while Matsuda was at least showing signs of knowing how to fight. But that didn't stop the FMW side being killed by the more experienced girls while Despina Montagas was doing a horrible job being the referee for this one. Fun basic stuff as it was a shift in FMW's ladies division toward something great. Kudo picks up the pin when she cross-bodypressed Matsuda off Amada's shoulders.
14:01 of 14:01 - Kudo pinned Matsuda after a double-team top rope cross-bodypress


2. Fumiharu Asako -vs- Kim Hyun Hann - (3x10 Rounds) [**]
--- With the success of Lee Gak Soo FMW bring in another Korean like him with the crowd friendly Kung Fu movie style. And watching Asako against these guys is just admirable. Asako is kind of like Bob Sapp. He's big and dangerous if he catches you, but he's got no chin for offence and falls down in pain for everything. And Hann landed some impressive kicks including a top rope flying kick straight in the big mans face! Hann was almost murdering the sambo wrestler the first two rounds that way. But then came the 3rd and it was over in no time when Asako caught a kick and made it into a fisherman's suplex before applying the chickenwing facelock for the tap. Fun short fight.
6:35 of 6:35 - Asako made hann submit to a chickenwing facelock 0:35 of the 3rd Round


3. Jimmy Backlund © -vs- Lee Gak Soo - (AWA Light Heavyweight Title; 3x15R) [* 1/2]
--- The future Jimmy Del Ray defending the AWA Light Heavyweight Title in a fifteen 3-minute round bout with no pinfall allowed. And that hurt Backlunds game a lot. And in reality this was a styles clash too with some interesting parts as to how the two different styles of fighting would work out. Lee had his speedy martial arts kicking and Backlund had to rely on his amateur wrestling skills and try to hook in a submission, but while he was better at the ground game then Lee he didn't have enough skills to get in a serious submission and the crowd grew impatient with Backlund because of it. And Lee kept landing more spectacular blows that became the highlight of this one. In the 5th round Backlund was caught with too many kicks and was KO'ed after a getting hit with a dropkick. He nearly got up in time though, but the decision and AWA belt was awarded to the Korean.
12:44 of 12:44 - Soo defeated Backlund by KO 0:44 f the 5th Round after a dropkick to become the 2nd AWA Light Heavyweight Champion.


4. Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto -vs- Kendo Nagasaki & Masanobu Kurisu - (Texas Death Match) [***]
--- The Japanese Kendo Nagasaki! He didn't really have much of a career in Japan apart from a short stint in New Japan in 1985-86 when everybody else was leaving the company thanks to Inoki's dealings until the indy scene was established in Japan during the 90's. Nakasaki did have a solid career in Texas and Puerto Rico and gained a cult status because of it. He's a old school brawler like the rest of these guys and this match was filled for pure madness fighting. As real as it gets. Swinging chairs, cowboy boots and belts recklessly around. And not in the modern protective way. Only swing to hurt in a real heated way! And there wasn't any overkill either to get the point across. Straight in your face beating! It was a Texas Death Match so the rules are pinfall first and then a 10-count KO to win the match. And there was only two such potential match-ending spots. One with Nakasaki getting pinned after double-teaming by the two FMW aces with Kendo managing to get up in time. Kurisu wasn't so lucky and got a royal asskicking for the final ending with Onita Thunder Fire'ing him a couple of time plus Goto landing on him from the top rope. He didn't have a chance in hell to get up from that. Good good brawl the way it should be done!
10:59 of 10:58 - Onita defeated Kurisu by TKO


COMMENTS: A very entertaining 1 hour release from FMW from the Korean Martial Arts guys doing their thing to Megumi Kudo finally coming to FMW to the old guys having a sweet old school Texas Death Match with the boots to match. From memory I don't think Kendo Nagasaki had much to do with FMW after this, so it was cool to see them mix together in such a badass way as this.


--PUNQ--

Here's an interesting one: Donnybrook Theatre.

A never-aired concept that Wrestlecrap profiled here. Done in 1995, it was due to be the first time WWF ever openly slagged off Hogan since he left the company, was to feature Yokozuna's first ever american speech, show Vince Russo's face to a large audience for the first time and featured Lord Alfred Hayes long after his last appearance on TV.

Obviously, it's total garbage. In that fun mid-90s way, though.

WWE 24/7 recently released it to the world. And then, to be cool, somebody posted it on Youtube.

Enjoy.

The spot where Dragon went for the move THQ calls the "Dragonsteiner" (which Rey still does sometimes) but instead floated all the way around and hit a DDT (called as a Tornado DDT by Tenay) - was that an improvised slip up made good, or a genuine innovated move? I ask because while it looked wicked, Dragon never did it again.

... it looks like a bad SNL sketch making fun of wrestling

FMW Hand-Held: May 12, 1990, Towada - (1 3/4 hrs)


May 12, 1990, Towada Citizen Gym (1800 fans)

1. Yuki Morimatsu -vs- Yoshika Maedomari [1/2*]
--- Both girls had debuted earlier in 1990 and that made sure this was as basic as a joshi rookie match gets. Yoshika "Crusher" Maedomari is most known for being Shark Tsuchiya's tag partner in the first half of the 90's as this butch monster women's team while Yuki Morimatsu had the best part of her career in Jd' as the masked Ryuna and the Drake Morimatsu. Morimatsu gets to win this one rather unspectacularly with a Jumbo Tsuruta like side suplex.
6:27 of 6:30 - Morimatsu pinned Maedomari after a side suplex


2. Jun Onouchi -vs- Akihito Ichihara [1/4*]
--- Two guys I know nearly nothing about. Ichihara had a much longer and better career as Flying Kid Ichihara and more recently as Ebessan II, but here neither guy showed much as it was a terrible short rookie bout which Onouchi won with a horrible looking Victory Roll in no time.
2:06 of 2:09 - Onouchi pinned ishihara with a Victory Roll


3. Mascarita Sagrada -vs- Espectrito [*]
--- Only a quick midget fix with a handful cool moves before Sagrada had it won. These two would have tons of greater matches then this the next decade, but at least it beats Tiger Jackson and Little Louie who they brought in for he first tour.
3:54 - Sagrada pinned Espectrito after a top rope summersault press


4. Lee Wong Pyo -vs- The Shooter [1/4*]
--- A unknown korean trying to do pro-wrestling and getting to beat a Shooter. Over quick and forgettable.
4:06 of 4:06 - Pyo defeated Shooter after a neck breaker


5. Ricky Fuji -vs- The Shooter [1/2*]
--- This might actually be Ricky Fuji's FMW debut. He started his wrestling career in Hart's Stampede promotion in Canada during 1988 and was scouted by Onita and brough in to FMW for his first gig in his home country. Only a very quick win for Fuji who was dominant here doing the type of wrestling you'd normaly associate for Stampede. And he'd not bleached his hair yet!
2:41 of 2:40 - Fuji made Shooter submit to a chickenwing crossface


6. Magnificent Mimi -vs- Megumi Kudo [* 1/4]
--- Mimi was heavily featured in wrestling mags around this time. A tall lady with a smalltime movie career I belive. She was fairly atheltic and had there been a bigger market for women's wrestling in the US at that time she might have had a career. I don't remember if she had any tours with AJW or JWP at the time, so this might have been her only tour of Japan. The wrestling was fairly basic, but Kudo got in a little before she fell victim to the foreigner. Mimi did a fancy looking backdrop suplex which Kudo unexpectedly kicked out of, but then Mimi followed up with a long-leged top rope dropkick for the pin.
7:50 of 8:20 - Mimi pinned Kudo after a top rope dropkick


7. Reibun Amada & Noriyo Toyoda -vs- Kumiko Matsuda & Miwa Sato [*]
--- The earliest footage of, soon to be Combat, Noriyo Toyoda in FMW. Another one from the AJW 1986 class along with Amada and Kudo who got dropped by AJW after a few years considered not good enough. And the two '86'ers was having a easy time convincing the FMW fans that they were the best in this bout facing two of FMW's own trained girls. The match itself wasn't all that interesting. It was a basic quash with very few highlights. But at least it got the point across that Toyoda & Amada are a force to be recond with....
8:36 of 8:37 - Amada pinned Matsuda after a double-arm faceslam


8. Lee Gak Soo -vs- Yukihide Ueno - (Rounds) [* 3/4]
--- Ueno will forever be remembered as a solid midcard guy who with his athletic fighting didn't really live up to his potential because of his small size. He's the type of grapler who'd go all in and get caught with kicks from the more bastardist like Lee. Only a few judo throws went Ueno's way before he got kicked one too many times down and KO'ed.
7:41 of 7:41 - Soo defeated Ueno by KO after a high head kick 1:41 of the 3rd Round


9. Tarzan Goto -vs- The Wizard [3/4*]
--- Goto beating up a masked nobody very simply....
7:09 of 7:10 - Goto pinned Wizard after a facebuster


10. Masanobu Kurisu & Wild Bullman -vs- Atsushi Onita & Fumiharu Asako [**]
--- Not so much about Onita then about trying to build interest for the big sambo guy. Onita was barely in and when he was it was only to get some momentum for Asako who most of the time was beat up by this bearded mini-Brody character called Wild Bullman. Well, Onita's help didn't really help as he was more interested in attacking Kurisu when saving Asako from Bullman's claws. And that was Asako's doom and he was knocked down and out by Bullman while Onita was fighting with Kurisu out of the ring.
10:10 of 9:49 - Bullman pinned Asako after a lariat


COMMENTS: I guess this was a typical FMW house show at the time. Many quick meaningless matches. Even Onita was phoning it in. Still it's interesting to see the FMW pieces come together with more and more regular FMW wrestlers turning up as the company starts running regularly.


--PUNQ--

^^^Thread killer^^^

I thought he'd posted in the wrong thread so I just left it

Doesn't get much more old school than these chaps.

I was actually trying to find the Sting/Robocop thing because I fancied a giggle, when I stumbled across an angle, which reminded me of a much better storyline. That being the formation of maybe my favourite faction ever (along with Kaentai DX) - The Dangerous Alliance. The basic story was that Paul E. Dangerously had been a commentator, but lost his job, was pissed off about it and declared war on WCW. They generally feuded with all the top faces in the company, mainly Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Dustin Rhodes, Barry Windham, Nikita Koloff, leading to the famous War Games match at WrestleWar '92. I tried to find as much of the important stuff as I could, so enjoy you lucky swines!

But, be warned - while early 90s WCW was so great in many ways, it was also comically shit. This stuff is a good example of that...

In the first relevant incident Larry Zbyszko earns his 'Crusher' nickname by fucking up Baz Windham's hand with help from Arn Anderson while Dustin Rhodes, like an idiot, sits there doing nothing. Then The Haloween Phantom is revealed as Rick Rude. Like I said, WCW in the early 90s is fucking hysterical. Look at Eric Bischoff! Just look at him dressed up as Dracula. What's more, he seems perfectly happy to be dressed as Dracula. Not to mention, The Phantom's cheap ass looking outfit. Anyway, Heyman cuts a hell of a promo and pre-horrible tit job Madusa looks nice.

At the Clash of the Champions, Rhodes and Windham are scheduled to face tag Champs Anderson and Zbyszko, but Bazza's hand is fucked so Rhodes finds a mystery partner. A mystery partner who enters wearing the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life on his head. The mystery partner is revealed and the tag title match is on - Parts I, II and III. It's good stuff.

Same night, Sting is scheduled to face Rude for the US title. Then some wacky shit involving mystery boxes and Madusa acting like a possessed slut lead to Sting getting injured by Lex Luger. 'What a dastardly attack' says JR. Bobby Eaton, the sly bastard, tells Sting to go to hospital (or in JR world, a 'medical facility') because he's got plenty of time. Except he doesn't as Paul E. has found a loophole in the contract which means if Sting isn't in the ring come bell time, Rude wins the US title by forfeit. More comedy from Bischoff, with him and JR having a phone conversation from hospital. Look at his little face in that picture. Sting, being a hero, returns to face Rude. Good little brawl they have. Ross is great on commentary here and Paul E. cuts another great promo post-match complete with theatrical spitting.

Anyway, Heyman officially announces The Dangerous Alliance of Zybysko, Anderson, Rude, Stunning Steve Austin, Eaton and Madusa. I'm not actually sure where Austin fits into all this but he's 'the world's greatest athlete' according to Heyman and he's Stunning Steve Austin, so who cares?

On to Starrcade '91 and the impossibly shit 'Lethal Lottery'. 40 wrestlers were entered into the lottery and chosen 'at random' to form 20 tag teams. Each team faced another 'randomly' chosen team and the winning team got entered into BattleBowl~! (or a battle royal to you and me) where the winner gets...something. I dunno. So basically, the PPV had 10 tag matches and a battle royal. Like I said - shit. Amazingly, Rude and Austin were 'randomly' chosen to team together where they faced the Hansen/Brody-like duo of Van Hammer and Big Josh. Zybysko doesn't make BattleBowl because El Gigante is a retard. I know you're desperate to see clips of all this so : here. Anyway, Sting ends up winning BattleBowl and getting whatever you get for winning BattleBowl.

At the next Clash, Sting and Steamboat took on Austin and Rude. I'm pretty sure there was six man involving the other members, but I couldn't find it, so we'll pretend it didn't happen.

On to SuperBrawl II (here is the intro). This is the show with the pretty famous Liger/Pillman match, generally recognised as one of the best opening matches ever. But we aren't here to talk about that shit. Barry Windham is still, understandably, pissed off about his broken hand. He's looking for revenge on Zybyszko, who teams with Stunning Steve to take on Windham and Rhodes. At the beginning of this, you get an interview with The Taylor Made Man who is described, by Missy Hyatt, as looking 'so dapper'. He doesn't, of course. He looks like Terry Taylor wearing something that the Million Dollar Man rejected. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he looks like a twat. Anyway, this match is good stuff. Like all good grudge matches it starts with a brawl~! I hate it when grudge matches start with headlocks and shit. Here's part II. Same night Eaton and Anderson (who are now the tag champs) face the Steiner Brothers. It's another good tag match - Parts I and II.

Before this match Missy Hyatt interviews a ninja. Yep. A ninja. Ricky Steamboat's own personal ninja apparently. Don't ask me. Madusa also tries to talk to Steamboat, but the ninja wont let her, so she bitchslaps him: See this ninja-related madness. All this is ahead of Rick Rude vs. Steamboat for the US title. The ninja's reaction when Steamboat is leaving his dressing room is priceless. I'm not sure what I'm missing with this ninja business. Can anyone fill me in? Why did Steamboat have his own ninja? Anyway, it's one of Rude's better singles matches, certainly in a WCW ring, that I can think of. The crowd absolutely HATES him. They are so loud he can barely do his pre-match disrobing routine. Steamboat w/Ninja vs. Rude part I and Part II. Afterwards, the ninja's true identity is revealed. Missy Hyatt is so terrible in these segments that you have to wonder if she's doing it on purpose.

The blow-off to the feud was, of course, War Games. The Dangerous Alliance vs. Sting's Squadron. In the build-up there was a suggestion that Nikita couldn't be trusted and that he'd betray his team. Plus, the Alliance attacked Steamboat and broke his nose, which explains the comedy plaster he is wearing. It's a classic brawl and a great blow-off to the feud and my personal favourite War Games match (Part I, Part II).

That was basically it. The faction carried on for a bit, IIRC, but Larry got booted, then Madusa got fired and I'm pretty sure Michael Hayes ended up getting involved and things all got a bit shit. When Heyman went to ECW a couple of New Dangerous Alliances appeared, but the originals were the bollocks. Here is some more fun DA-related stuff:

Ricky Steamboat vs. Bobby Eaton - Steamboat gets his nose broken.
Sting gets attacked
6-Man tag
Steamboat interview - He's with Sting, Rhodes and Windham. Oh and his ninja.
Another 6-Man.
Windham vs. Austin - for the TV Title.
Madusa gets fired. - Paul E. is gold.

You better watch all this stuff now that I've found it.

Now that is how you do a post! Going to watch through it tomorrow. Good work

Get lost, you lot. PUNQ's posts are an excellent read, he does them on Mempho as well. If you're too lazy to bother reading through and then asking about them or talking about some of the shows or wrestlers he's mentioned, that's your fault; it doesn't make him a thread-killer.

Oh do be quiet. He has an entire thread filled with posts identical to that, it was hardly the mistake of the century me thinking he posted in the wrong thread. And before you start throwing around stupid arse accusations of not reading them or anything, I do read them. Including the one in this thread. In all total fairness though, he's posting about obscure japanese stuff from 1990 that hardly anyone in here will understand or know about anyway. In a thread full of talk mainly about early WWF/WCW/NWA stuff, it's hardly a shock his post looked out of place.

Err, this is a thread about the old school. FMW in the early 90s is as Old School as it gets, these are the guys who invented the Death Match. Nowhere at any point does it say that it has to be about early WWF/WCW/NWA stuff, and just because that's all anyone else has talked about so far doesn't mean that nobody else wants to read them. And even if you don't like them, it doesn't mean "hardly anyone" will know or understand them - there are plenty of puro fans on here. Either way, this thread is as good a place for it as any, and calling it a "thread-killer" just highlights other people's ignorance. You don't know or care, fine - there are plenty of other people who do. Don't speak for them.

Too be fair the FMW reviews didn't exactly sparke much nostalgia talk as I'd hoped so in that sense I can understand the very constructive "^^^Thread killer^^^" remark.

It is interesting how different perspectives I have from the the current generation of UKFF'ers. It's difficult to grasp that many today actually think FMW is obscure wrestling while I more or less grew up with it. FMW is my early 90's WCW in a way. Surely there must be some understanding that shows featuring freakin' Dick Murdoch, Jos LeDuc and Japanese old schoolers Kurisu, Goto, Nagasaki and "The Wild Thing" Atsushi Onita belong in a old school thread! But then again there seems to be some Jap-o-fobia going on around here which was easily spoted in the Misawa thread recently, so it's not surprising people "booo" when some Jap stuff one has little understanding of take up place of wrestling one self understand, ruining the WCW discussion. And that attitude will keep the old school Japanese wrestling stay "obscure" instead of actually learning from it. Then again I'm the first to admit I'm not very good at sparkling discussion like many others are with their writing, so it's also understandable that some want my stuff out of it. And that's what'll happen from now on. I'll keep my reviews in out of this thread.


--PUNQ--

Hearing FMW referred to as "Obscure Japanese Stuff" has actually quite shocked me.

I thought anyone who used to watch the original ECW would have heard of FMW and at least checked them out. It was only recently they were shown on UK Satellite.

Have wrestling fans really changed that much in so little time?

For the record, I find PUNQ's posts very interesting, I don't reply because I don't know enough to reply, but I am a regular reader.

Nothing wrong with more FMW reviews. Come on, let's see 'em, PUNQ.

I think the problem is what eugenespeed highlighted, people don't really know enough to add anything or disagree with what you post, so the responses are limited. Feel free to post your reviews in the thread though, the only criteria is that the stuff people talk about in here is pre-2000, and your stuff fits under that comfortably.

Personally I did read the reviews, but I only have a real interest in FMW stuff featuring Hayabusa (my favourite wrestler). Him, Kanemura, Tanaka, Team No Respect, Mr. Gannosuke. That kind of stuff.

Quality post there BionicRedneck, thanks. A few more like that wouldn't go amiss.

You really didn't read my post did you. For one I didn't say that it has to be about wwf/wcw/etc, I said it's been that mainly so far. Nor did I say nobody wants to read them, in fact I admitted that I read them. I didn't once say I don't like them, why would I read them all if I didn't?. I'm also willing to bet that despite the amount of puro fans, there will still be a big bunch of people who don't know or havn't watched FMW from 1990. I also didn't call it a thread killer, that was the guy before me, I just said I thought he'd posted in the wrong thread. I actually see where Dude and Seven might be coming from now.

So I disagree with you on a subject, and now you think that I warrant trolling and insults? That's a bit over-sensitive to discussion, even for me. And I did read your post, and, whether you meant to or not, you implied a few things. Sorry if I misunderstood, but that's hardly a hanging offence.

What makes you think I was aiming the "thread-killer" remark at you? There were a couple of people who thought those reviews ended the thread - Trick Rikki actually calling it "thread-killer", and Childsy praising BR's post as "that's how you do a post", as if PUNQ's wasn't. And why bring up the point about it being WWF/WCW/etc. at all? Nobody originally said that, so I wasn't having a go at them for that - you're one who brought it up.

You're such a tool. You're disagreeing with me about something that I didn't even say, you just assume I implied.

My post was not related to the "Thread Killer" remark as i have been reading PUNQ's posts as well. I just thought BionicRedneck's post which was a mix of story and link's to the events that took place is something i would like to see more of when we have these kind of thread's.